The tendrils of Agony kill in MDG

[MaxxMatt]

Let me add another thing.

If I maindeck ToA, I'll pump the ToA's kill at his best playing with almost any Gifts' build.
If I maindeck Titan, I can maximize the impact of the weakest among Gifts' tools: Tinker.

Titan eat duals ( game 2 and 3 they are used far more than game 1 ) and ToA goes aroung creatures hate or control hate.

During game 2 and 3 and against almost any deck, I would add ToA and a bouncer, cutting Tinker+DSC.
I don't need to resolve Y.Will in order to win through it and B.Wish is an easy backup plan, if my early ToA got RFGed by opponent's hate.

I keep maindeck Tinker+DSC because I play TFKs and because I can sometimes switch DSC with Titan, especially against control decks and especially during game 2 and 3.
But thoseare strategical swaps. You have to dispose of both Tinker+DSC AND ToA+Titan.
They can give you victories for different reasons and  because you planned how to win before the game's start.


Maxx

[AJFirst]

I did something similar to that in Control Slaver, but now that I'm playing Gifts I've realized that the card Gifts Ungiven is one of the best Yawgmoth's Will set-up spells every printed.

Fish is obviously not all that great of a match-up, but if you can counter their Kataki's and Jotun Grunts (nothing else really matters as long as you keep an eye on your life total) then winning through a counter or two is not that hard. Obviously it's a nice luxury to chuck an 11/11 on the board, and that's why he's in the deck (even just as a threat meaning Tinker is a must-counter for them allowing Will to resolve. Another good point is that because Fish is such an underpowered deck, your draws will be better than there's. MDG's threat density is obscene compared to UW. This means that the late-game benifits you, and if you Tendrils for even a little, or get your DSC StPed, the life you gain gives you time to set-up the other win.

DSC is stupid good obviously, and is the only reason to be running Tinker, but the threat of the 3 mana 11/11 is too great to remove from the deck. This doesn't mean that Tendrils isn't much more efficient though.
-AJ

[Hi-Val]

I think the greatest reason to run DSC is True Believer, and Mage to a lesser extent. Anything else that Fish throws at me is meh, but those guys are serious pains to get off the board. The problem is that you need to EOT bounce them while still trying to set up your combo. That really constrains tempo and resources, and DSC can just avoid having to deal with those guys by being a largeman.

[Liam-K]

I think the greatest reason to run DSC is True Believer, and Mage to a lesser extent. Anything else that Fish throws at me is meh, but those guys are serious pains to get off the board. The problem is that you need to EOT bounce them while still trying to set up your combo. That really constrains tempo and resources, and DSC can just avoid having to deal with those guys by being a largeman.

I do find that I am VERY conscious of the singleness of my chain of vapor against fish.  I'm afraid to use it sometimes because either I think it might be countered, or I don't feel like it's worth it.  I get a now-or-never vibe bouncing creatures, because they are coming back down and I have no other maindeck way of dealing with that.  I didn't have that problem the same way when I was running maindeck fire/ice.  Fetching a volcanic and caring less about welder made me cut it though.

Is siding in chain(s) correct against fish?  Red cards just feel random because they are unscrollable, and tend to be sorcery speed at that, not to mention wasteland vulnerability.  I sort of feel like if I could bounce something without being terrified that I won't have that option later I would have more game.  Hell, chain #2 maindeck might not be a terrible idea.  Or maybe echoing truth if you run the sideboard eye of nowhere (wishable) for gifts reasons.

[froz3nn]

what about fire/ice,its scrollable  can 2 for 1 and ills all the annoying creature. Also you can stall from a dsc

[Liam-K]

I already mentioned why I cut it from the maindeck.  I used to think bomby cards were better in the sideboard, and that if you're going to fetch out a volc pyroblast is often better, but the scrollable issue is still very real.  Scrolling for removal seems randomly awful though, because of meddling mage and broadcasting that you actually care if it resolves (many fish players have a hard time detecting that thier meddling mage or true believer is actually hurting you, and might figure their counters are better saved for your bombs).

I feel like in theory I should be able to bounce once, untap and tendrils for a fuckton.  Maybe playing your gifts differently is the best strategy, fetching out broken mana and cheap spells rather than win conditions and just trusting your yawgwill will be stupid enough to end with tendrils = 28.

[Storm]

My latest tweak of Meandeck Gifts, which is the subject of my article next week, will show you that I absolutely and convinced that the Tendrils should be maindeck.   It makes the deck SO much faster.   I now win on turn three, on average - and often faster. 

[nataz]

My latest tweak of Meandeck Gifts, which is the subject of my article next week, will show you that I absolutely and convinced that the Tendrils should be maindeck. It makes the deck SO much faster. I now win on turn three, on average - and often faster.

Not surprised, Tendrils MD is wicked fast. A few people in NE have been playing a version of MDGifts(scrolls and MisD) for a while now with a maindeck tendrils and doing quite well with it. The part that I'm the most curious about is whether or not B-wish is still in the maindeck.  

[MuzzonoAmi]

I'm kept the wish there as sort of a safety net in case of random Hide/Seeks or Extracts, and so I can get Will back if I need to in the control mirror.

[MaxxMatt]

@Maindeck ToA issue

I have tested my last build without Tinker+DSC plan but with Tinker+Jar+ToA as additional drawer plus winning condition.

In a heavy grave hate enviroment, I felt sick about the lack of 11/11.
In any other game situation, I simply ROLLED over different opponents without too much difficulties.

This is the current build, just in case you need to argue bbout.



Winners (3)
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony

Drawers (12)
4 Brainstorm
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Memory Jar

Tools (5)
1 Time Walk
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Recoup

Protections (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Tutors (6)
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

Mana (25)
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
3 Undeground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

That last slot can be:
1 DSC
1 Titan
1 Skeletal
1 Mis-D
1 Gifts Ungiven



My current sideboard is:

3 Duress
2 Pyroclasm
1 S.Spree
1 Deep Analysis
2 H. Recall
1 R&R
1 ReB
1 Pyro
1 T.Crypt
1 Titan/DSC
1 P.Needle


What would you think?







 

[Grand Inquisitor]

I'm the most curious about is whether or not B-wish is still in the maindeck

It probably depends a lot on where you want to  take the rest of the list, but my choice to MD Tendrils was actually driven by how much I hated drawing Burning Wish.  This was almost a year ago, but after MD'ing Tendrils, it turned out it added certain tactical advantages, and the idea stuck.  Often you can bait during your turn with ancestral or something and then combo out with a smaller tendrils 12-16) vs control after losing the first counter war.

I can see the benefits of Wish as far as recursion, but as a toolbox tutor, it was always underwhelming.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I was trying Tendrils maindeck last week a little bit and was definitely encouraged.  It's so much easier to get to and win with when you don't have to worry about getting Burning Wish first.  I'm glad other people are doing it too so I don't feel like a total noob.

My problem with Burning Wish and Tendrils sideboard is that it's so often an either-or proposition.  You either win with Tendrils or you go get something out of the board to slow your opponent down when they get out of hand.  MDG is so surprising and resilient, though, that if I was losing at some point, I could topdeck or tutor one of any huge number of bombs and come back to win if I saved the Burning Wish for Tendrils and tried to deal with or ignore on-board problems in the meantime.  Wishing for something like Pyroclasm is so underwhelming.

Burning Wish will probably stay in my deck because of its recursion abilities and the ability to go get sometimes useful spells like Deep Analysis, Duress, and a second Tendrils out of the board.  If anything better comes along, though, Wish is one of the first cards I would look to cut.

[Storm]

@Maindeck ToA issue

I have tested my last build without Tinker+DSC plan but with Tinker+Jar+ToA as additional drawer plus winning condition.

In a heavy grave hate enviroment, I felt sick about the lack of 11/11.
In any other game situation, I simply ROLLED over different opponents without too much difficulties.

This is the current build, just in case you need to argue bbout.


What would you think?

I think not running 4 Merchant Scroll and 4 Gifts is utterly crazy.


Both cards are utterly nuts.   Merchant Scroll is straight up demonic tutor that can't find Lotus or Will directly and Gifts, well, I can't for the life of me understand why you wouldn't run 4.  The card is NUTS!

Stephen

[Disburden]

Merchant Scroll is my favorite card in the deck, hands down. The only exceptions are probably Time Walk and Gifts Ungiven, but the sheer early game tutoring ability with Scroll is amazing. There is no need to a crazy thirst for knowledge engine that the deck can't even support (this isn't Slaver!). Now you just get 8 force of Wills, 8 Mana Drains, 4 Misdirection, 5 Ancestral Recalls, etc. I would never cut Scrolls or Gifts Ungiven from the deck. Gifts is so powerful good.

I can't wait for your Tweaked MDG article, Steve. It sounds very interesting. This is my favorite deck pretty much, ever, so I am excited. Thanks.

I tried Maindeck Tendrils before and I liked it, although with Burning Wish, Recoup, and now Tendrils Of Agony you now have a stricter Mulligan ratio. Although the difference may be minute, you only had to worry about two dead cards in your hand, now you have three dead cards in the deck. I never used Vampiric Tutor in the deck, so I basically just cut a Misdirection (I had three) and just put the Tendrils of Agony into the deck. It's nice to have a faster goldfish and now the pitchlong match just got slightly better.  I still use one Underground sea and SIX basic islands.

Best Mana Base Ever.

Edit: I also should mention that Nate Pease ran Maindeck Tendrils for some time now, so I am willing to give him credit.

[49 Cents]

So.. You cut Vamp, so you can't Gift into Will tutors anymore, and you have only a single Sea so you can't even hardcast Tendrils without artifacts? Will, Demonic and Tendrils requires 4 black mana. So basically if you don't have a Lotus you can't properly combo out? To me, 1 Sea is a serious mistake. Isn't 5 Islands, like, enough?

[AJFirst]

I agree with Stephen here, but my list is a little different than the typical Meandeck lists. You absolutely need 4 scrolls though. That card is stupid if you know how to play with it. People that say the second one is not as good as the first are just wrong. The second one is better, because that's when you usually get Ancestral (unless you already have two pitch counters when you play your first scroll).

Find Ancestral
Play and Protect Ancestral
Find Gifts
Play and Protect Gifts
Play and Protect Will
Win

Now Merchant scroll is very difficult to play with properly but the more testing you do the more you'll realize how ridiculous it is.

as for Gifts, I only run 3. Now here me out. With all of the tutor power in the deck (Merchant Scroll) and drawing power (counters for more turns, and Scroll-->Ancestral+Brainstorm) finding a Gifts when you need it is not hard. In the metagame full of prison where you don't want a four mana spell clogging up your hand, and Pitchlong, where you'll be using them to fend off early threats via FoW and MisD anyway, because if you don't you won't GET to have four mana.

I also don't play Fact or Fiction, but that's a whole other debate. I play one Thirst so if I have DSC in hand late game I can scroll for it to shuffle it back and draw three in the process instead of getting brainstorm. Also this allows me to cast gifts for gas much like the versions that run FoF do for the control mirror. The list:

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Burning Wish
1 Recoup
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 DSC

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Misdirection

1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Fire // Ice

5 Fetch
3 Island
2 Snow-covered Island
2 Underground
2 Volcanic
1 Tolarian
7 SoLoMox
3 CryptVaultPetal

it's very solid, and I've been playing it for a while. Odds are I'm changing to a rogue deck I've been working on though.
-AJ

[Disburden]

So.. You cut Vamp, so you can't Gift into Will tutors anymore, and you have only a single Sea so you can't even hardcast Tendrils without artifacts? Will, Demonic and Tendrils requires 4 black mana. So basically if you don't have a Lotus you can't properly combo out? To me, 1 Sea is a serious mistake. Isn't 5 Islands, like, enough?

You're probably right about needing two underground seas. I tested only a few games so far with Tendrils main and one sea wasn't an issue, but I can see what you mean. As for Vampiric tutor, I don't think it's needed, also I'd rather cut Vamp then a Misdirection, Scroll, Gifts, or burning wish. Vamp wasn't really in the deck until it was Gencon and before that there was only one Sea in the deck. I think being able to Gifts for tutors is really cool, but now that you have one of your win conditons in the maindeck, it really doesn't end up as important as it was early when you needed Burning Wish to win.

[49 Cents]

So.. You cut Vamp, so you can't Gift into Will tutors anymore, and you have only a single Sea so you can't even hardcast Tendrils without artifacts? Will, Demonic and Tendrils requires 4 black mana. So basically if you don't have a Lotus you can't properly combo out? To me, 1 Sea is a serious mistake. Isn't 5 Islands, like, enough?

You're probably right about needing two underground seas. I tested only a few games so far with Tendrils main and one sea wasn't an issue, but I can see what you mean. As for Vampiric tutor, I don't think it's needed, also I'd rather cut Vamp then a Misdirection, Scroll, Gifts, or burning wish. Vamp wasn't really in the deck until it was Gencon and before that there was only one Sea in the deck. I think being able to Gifts for tutors is really cool, but now that you have one of your win conditons in the maindeck, it really doesn't end up as important as it was early when you needed Burning Wish to win.

When I played the deck, I ran into some situations where I had Gifts and some mana, but not enough mana to combo out and not enough (good) cards in my graveyard. EOT Gifts to Mystical, Demonic, Vamp, Lotus gave me exactly what I needed because you will always get a card that can find Will, and either Lotus or a tutor for Academy/Tinker/Walk/Recall or something. Not being able to Gift for 3 tutors sounds.. not very apealling.

[zeus-online]

I LOVE vampiric tutor in gifts deck...doing an EOT Gifts and then mystical/vamp for will is GG. And alot easier then setting up with recoup or something.

/Zeus

[Disburden]

I like Vampiric tutor too, don't get me wrong. But I think that if you are running a Tendrils of Agony in the maindeck of this variation of Gifts then it becomes more of a comfort tool and nothing that is mandatory in successfully killing through Tendrils. The deck is tight, so if the deck's creator says that he now found a place for one Tendrils Of agony in the maindeck, I think it'll end up being in over the Vampiric tutor. The card wasn't even in the deck for the first year it was around, thus the mana base had only one Sea. Not until the past two months has Meandeck Gifts ran this card. This deck is the most tutor intensive deck that Mana Drain players have, Vampiric Tutor becomes less important than it is in Control Slaver. You have Four Gifts Ungiven, Four Merchant Scrolls, Demonic tutor, and Mystical tutor to find all the things you need to win. Before Gifting for Tutors, since Gifts IS a tutor in itself, I used Gifts for the following:

Win Conditions
Counter Magic
And Draw/ Gifts scrolls, etc.

 I doubt Steve is going to cut any of the following cards for Tendrils:

Gifts (um, definitely not)
Merchant Scroll (This card is amazing and I will always defend playing four)
Misdirection (running any of these less than two is a mistake, imo. The whole point of the deck is that it's mono U on Steriods)
Mystical Tutor (this is a mono U deck.)

Now after knowing these cards will be the same, what do you think was cut? Burning Wish is definitely going to be in the deck still, I think, since it has amazing interaction with Time Walk and RFG cards.

[LordHomerCat]

I hate burning wish, it is the first card I'd cut.  It eats your sideboard, it doesnt pitch to force, and it can't even win the game if you have tendrils main.  Why bother?

Are you going to post the list you played in Cleveland a couple weeks ago Steve?  I really liked the tendrils main, winning is so much less clunky when you don't have to find a stupid Burning Wish and red mana first.

[MaxxMatt]

@About full sets of M.Scrolls and G.Ungiven

In my "world", I have to fight Wires, Spheres, Aggro-Control decks and large variety of different decks.
Some gaming situations are solved by a 4of Scrolls or Gifts.
Other ones are clunked by that same presence.

I opted for:

-meanly lower mana curve
-lesser number of sorceries.

The maindeck ToA and Jar are an experiment.
They are strictly not utterly good.
Maybe I would switch back.


In the end, Scrolling for Gifts win games.
Not being able to Scroll or Gifts can be game over.

I usually want to die from "different deaths".
Anytime I died with M-Scrolls, Demonics and B.Wishes in my hand because of a single Wire, I cursed my rigid maindeck configuration.
Anytime I needed to dig fast into the deck to make quantity with a little mana on table, I cursed additional counters and Gifts.

My deck is far more different from MDG.
Not better or worst.
Simply different.

Don't make me stupid, I fully understand the power of both M.Scrolls and G.Ungiven, but I, aware, opted for flexibility and not for rigid paths.

MaxxMatt

[DoubleDrain]

I ran a psudeo-gifts list at the last SCG Chicago (got 24th, due to MASSIVE play errors like trying to cycle rebuild from the yard, etc.) in which I cut tinker-DSC and added a tendrils main. I only ran 1 sea as well, and in retrospect, 2 is needed for so many reasons (see below)...

While it is true that a maindeck tendrils helps speed up the deck significantly, I always missed the "oops, I win" factor of an early tinker/DSC, and so I feel cutting tink/DSC for maindeck tendrils is incorrect. Since that chicago SCG event, I went back to a more traditional MDG list, but I found that the 3rd misdirection was not needed, and it became vampiric tutor. To me, not running vamp is about as wrong as not running mystical...turn 1 vamp for lotus, ancestral, tolarian, will, etc, etc, is SOOOO strong. I could see having only 1 sea if you don't run vamp, but I like being able to fetch out a sea turn 1 for vamp and know there is another one there for when I need to cast yawg's will. MDG is a tutor-based deck, so why not run one of the most busted tutors?


I would love to find room in my build for a maindeck tendrils, but I refuse to cut burning wish, as that card allows for so many stupid good plays it's unbelievable. I have no problem casting an early will to get ahead, and then 4-8 turns later casting ANOTHER yawg's will to pull far ahead of my opponent. From there it should be cake to set up tinker/DSC for the win, or find that maindeck tendrils.

If I did run tendrils main, I wouldn't cut the burning wish...

[Liam-K]

I love how people talk about vampiric tutor like you never draw it.  EoT oops I get will is pretty huge, and having another spell that isn't gifts finding it frees up gifts stack space for better cards.

My only real regret about cutting wish for Tendrils would be losing the miniyawg -> wish for yawg option.  I haven't used this much though and being unable to assemble 6RRBBB + storm for the recoup win has lost me games.

[zeus-online]

I would love to find room in my build for a maindeck tendrils, but I refuse to cut burning wish, as that card allows for so many stupid good plays it's unbelievable. I have no problem casting an early will to get ahead, and then 4-8 turns later casting ANOTHER yawg's will to pull far ahead of my opponent. From there it should be cake to set up tinker/DSC for the win, or find that maindeck tendrils.

I really think its overkill to Will twice, you do realize that the deck IS capable of winning without that card, right?
Sure its easier, but the deck can win without it.

Oh and i rarely do a tutor gifts...never seems to be necessary.

EoT oops I get will is pretty huge, and having another spell that isn't gifts finding it frees up gifts stack space for better cards.

Exactly...! Although i must admit that the only resource i really need to gift for when going off is mana, so i often gifts for black lotus, mana crypt, mox jet, mox sapphire and/or tolarian academy (Depends on which one i already got)

/Zeus

[DoubleDrain]

I would love to find room in my build for a maindeck tendrils, but I refuse to cut burning wish, as that card allows for so many stupid good plays it's unbelievable. I have no problem casting an early will to get ahead, and then 4-8 turns later casting ANOTHER yawg's will to pull far ahead of my opponent. From there it should be cake to set up tinker/DSC for the win, or find that maindeck tendrils.

I really think its overkill to Will twice, you do realize that the deck IS capable of winning without that card, right?
Sure its easier, but the deck can win without it.

Oh and i rarely do a tutor gifts...never seems to be necessary.

EoT oops I get will is pretty huge, and having another spell that isn't gifts finding it frees up gifts stack space for better cards.

Exactly...! Although i must admit that the only resource i really need to gift for when going off is mana, so i often gifts for black lotus, mana crypt, mox jet, mox sapphire and/or tolarian academy (Depends on which one i already got)

/Zeus

Not that casting yawgs will even once is needed for the win, but come on, would you play two yawg wills in your deck if you could??

[Disburden]

I Guess I should just say there really is no point in debating over which card is going to be cut for Tendrils until Steve "Storm" Menendian submitts his article to Star City Games. I was just personally expressing that I know for a fact that Steve takes tons of pride in the manabase that Meandeck Gifts do have to offer, and therefore I doubt Vampiric tutor will be in the deck.

Demonic Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils
And Vampiric tutor

These all considerably weaken the manabase of the Mono-U monster that this deck is meant to be. This might even make the deck dependent enough on black mana that You would need even up to Three Underground seas. I have been playing this deck since it was revealed in 2005 and I know that the manabase isn't going to be ruined for one more Tutor that the deck doesn't even need. I think Burning Wish might still be included because the Deck is heavy red in the sideboard anyway. Red is the downright, most important color in the sideboard for MDGs. The maindeck only has two red cards but after boarding the deck can have up to these cards:

Up to 5 REBs and Pyroblasts
2 Pryoclasms
1 Rack and Ruin

The rest of the board is blue and colorless (3-4 Pithing Needle). I would much rather keep my black mana low, like intended, and since red is a heavily dependent board color anyway, just keep the burning wish main. I can't wait for the article though. Anything on Meandeck Gifts gets me off. I Also wish to see that video from Gencon!

Btw (off topic), what happened to the spellcheck function? I loved that thing.

[zeus-online]

I'd play 4 Yawgmoth's will if it wasnt restricted, but if i could play with 4 of that card, then why would i play gifts?

Anyways, with 4 will's i'd do stupid things like will just to replay a fetch, brainstorm and merchant scroll or something like that...

It takes cards like ancestral, time walk or tinker to get me to play "small" wills as it is now. With or without wish.

/Zeus

[Liam-K]

Not that casting yawgs will even once is needed for the win, but come on, would you play two yawg wills in your deck if you could??

Burning Wish is only Yawgwill #2 when you've resolved a yawgwill already.  Which means both finding it and winning the counter war.  Not that I've never made this play, but it has also been sort of academic to pull out the second will, I could probably have tutored up a fistful of counters and a tinker instead with no more trouble.  If burning wish read 1R: search your deck for Yawgmoths Will I would run 4.

[monSt4r]

Not that casting yawgs will even once is needed for the win, but come on, would you play two yawg wills in your deck if you could??

Burning Wish is only Yawgwill #2 when you've resolved a yawgwill already.  Which means both finding it and winning the counter war.  Not that I've never made this play, but it has also been sort of academic to pull out the second will, I could probably have tutored up a fistful of counters and a tinker instead with no more trouble.  If burning wish read 1R: search your deck for Yawgmoths Will I would run 4.

Actually burning wish DID that...so that's why you can play only 1, and it does it's purpose as a singleton