Animate Dead targetting Akroma, Angel of Wrath in my grave

[LotusHead]

This was brought up here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28405.0

and recently came up on SCG's Legacy stuff, but I found the rulings lacking.

If I animate Akroma, Angel of Wrath, I would assume that Animate Dead comes into play, then it targets Akroma (no Pro-Black yet as Akroma is in my grave), then Akroma comes into play, and Animate Dead becomes a creature enchantment attached to Akroma, then the State-Based Effects of "Protection from Black" kick Animate Dead off Akroma.  Animate Dead (and the other two of the like) say that if Animate Dead leaves play, the creature dies.

What happens when I cast Animate Dead on Akroma if neither player is doing anything particularily tricky?

She dies, yes?

Thanks for help!

[Polynomial P]

And please, whoever answers this question also address how Animate Dead interacts with Simic Sky Swallower or any untargetable creature. Thanks.

[49 Cents]

Akroma lives. It is put into play, and then Animate Dead gets attached to it. But it can't, because of pro:black, so Animate goes to the grave. Akroma, however, doesn't, because the Animate Dead never touched it.

[parallax]

Animate Dead brings Akroma back, tries to attach, but cannot because of Akroma's protection. Animate Dead is put into the graveyard as a SBE. It's leaves-play trigger triggers, but because it wasn't attached to anything, the ability does nothing. End result: Akroma in play, Animate Dead in the 'yard.

Animate Dead comes into play, targets SSS in the graveyard (SSS is only untargetable in play). SSS returns to play. Animate Dead attaches to SSS ("can't be targeted" has no effect on attach.). Now you have a SSS enchanted by Animate Dead. If Animate Dead is destroyed, the SSS dies. The Animate Dead can be targeted normally, and the leaves play ability does not target.

[LotusHead]

Animate Dead brings Akroma back, tries to attach, but cannot because of Akroma's protection.

I guess my problem is with the Aura "Trying to Attach" part.  Enchantments can Attatch to things without Targeting (I play Ideal.dec in T2 and stole tapped Kodama's with whatever 5cc T2 card lets you steal tappend permanents).

I would assume that the Aura gets attatched for at least one Nano-Second for the Animate Dead Enchantment to "Know" about Akroma.

[parallax]

No, because in additon to "can't be targeted by foo",  part of "protection from foo" is "can't be enchanted by foo".

Protection: DEBT
D - Damage from foo is prevented
E - Can't be enchanted or equipped by foo
B - Can't be blocked by foo
T - Can't be targeted by foo

Animate Dead never attaches to Akroma because Akroma can't be enchanted by Animate Dead. Simic Sky Swallower says nothing about being enchanted, it just almost never is because, usually, enchantments target it while on the stack.

[LotusHead]

I know Akroma (An SSS) can't be enchanted by Black Enchantments, but some creatures randomly get "Protection from Something". Think Pristine Angel.  Under those cases, the Equipment "Falls off" and/or the Aura goes to graveyard.  In Pristine Angel's case, the enchantment is attached briefly, yes?

An yes, without anybody asking it, I feel that cleaning up this part of the rules is what WOTC/DCI should worry about (before looking at Time Vault AGAIN) to help newish people understand the rules.

[parallax]

If Pristine Angel is tapped when the enchantment tries to attach, then yes it will attach, and yes it will fall off when the Angel becomes untapped. But if Pristine Angel is untapped, the enchantment can never attach to it (unless it is somehow colorless).

I think the rules are fine. What kind of new player is trying to Animate Dead Akroma?

[LotusHead]

I think the rules are fine. What kind of new player is trying to Animate Dead Akroma?

I keep dumb fun decks around for play against casual players and Akroma is in my Exhume/Animate Dead/ deck.

It could come up, and I would like to be completely clear on rules if it did.

Animate Dead never targets SSS (as far as SSS's ability is concerned: not techincally protection from anythying) but Akroma is completely off limits?

[parallax]

OK, then you need to be sure to explain the Animate Dead-Akroma interaction in detail so new players can understand.

Animate Dead targets the SSS in the graveyard, when its abilities don't apply. Then the SSS comes into play, and Animate Dead attaches (this happens without any targeting). The Animate Dead is able to attach and does not fall off, because SSS doesn't say anything about being enchanted. This is similar to the Enduring Ideal interaction (you can Faith's Fetters a SSS off Ideal). You have a SSS enchanted with Animate Dead that will die if Animate Dead is destroyed (also, SSS does nothing to prevent Animate Dead from being targeted by, say, Naturalize.).

Animate Dead also targets Akroma in the graveyard, when its protection doesn't apply. Then Akroma comes into play, but the Animate Dead does not attach, because Akroma can't be enchanted by black auras. The Animate Dead is put into the graveyard, but Akroma stays in play. Animate Dead's leaves play ability does nothing, because there was no "enchanted creature".

Note: As an exception, if you Dance of the Dead a Pristine Angel, the Angel comes into play tapped, and the Dance attaches. Then, if the Angel becomes untapped, the Dance falls off and the Angel dies. This only applies to Dance of the Dead/Pristine Angel.

[BigMac]

Animate Dead brings Akroma back, tries to attach, but cannot because of Akroma's protection. Animate Dead is put into the graveyard as a SBE. It's leaves-play trigger triggers, but because it wasn't attached to anything, the ability does nothing. End result: Akroma in play, Animate Dead in the 'yard.

I can follow the part of Akroma staying in play as animate comes into play and then checks for a target. The target hits play and animate tries to attach but it is not able to. Still, if it cannot attach, why would the animate leave play as it was allready in play when it searched for a target to animate in the first place. As i see it the animate would become an enchantment in play that is not attached to anything, so does nothing.

This could be important when you get into a dragon loop later on in the game with the animate in play. So could anybody shed some light on this problem please?

[parallax]

The Animate Dead becomes an aura, then tries to attach. As it cannot attach, it stays an aura and remains in play. When State-Based Effects are checked, the Animate Dead is an aura that is not attached to anything, and is put into the graveyard.

[BigMac]

The Animate Dead becomes an aura, then tries to attach. As it cannot attach, it stays an aura and remains in play. When State-Based Effects are checked, the Animate Dead is an aura that is not attached to anything, and is put into the graveyard.

So if i understand this correctly:
You play animate dead, in reaction somebody crypts your graveyard, it comes into play and never becomes an aura as it has no targets. (assuming other graveyard has no critters)
You play animate dead, it comes into play and you anounce target, it becomes an aura, opponent crypts and then the animate would go to the graveyard becasue it is then an aura when it finds no target.

Does this sum it up or is my reasoning flawed?

[Apollyon]

The Animate Dead becomes an aura, then tries to attach. As it cannot attach, it stays an aura and remains in play. When State-Based Effects are checked, the Animate Dead is an aura that is not attached to anything, and is put into the graveyard.

So if i understand this correctly:
You play animate dead, in reaction somebody crypts your graveyard, it comes into play and never becomes an aura as it has no targets. (assuming other graveyard has no critters)
You play animate dead, it comes into play and you anounce target, it becomes an aura, opponent crypts and then the animate would go to the graveyard becasue it is then an aura when it finds no target.

Does this sum it up or is my reasoning flawed?

Actually, it wouldn't. The second situation would have the ability countered on resolution because of a lack of targets. It would stay in play as an Enchantment.

[Wagner]

This is from the SCG rulings on Animate Dead:

Q: Can I Animate Dead a creature with protection from black and keep it in play?

A: No; you can target a creature with protection from black if it's in the graveyard - you couldn't if it was in play - and as such, it will come into play.

However, the enchantment will be put in the graveyard because once the creatures comes into play, the protection from black will cause an illegal target, and the creature will be put in the graveyard once the Animate Dead goes away.

So which is right, should we trusth SCG or a letter from a judge and people posting on a forum?

[Khahan]

This is from the SCG rulings on Animate Dead:

Q: Can I Animate Dead a creature with protection from black and keep it in play?

A: No; you can target a creature with protection from black if it's in the graveyard - you couldn't if it was in play - and as such, it will come into play.

However, the enchantment will be put in the graveyard because once the creatures comes into play, the protection from black will cause an illegal target, and the creature will be put in the graveyard once the Animate Dead goes away.

So which is right, should we trusth SCG or a letter from a judge and people posting on a forum?

Trust the letter from the judge and people on this forum. That SCG ruling is probably old and out of date. The ruling which determined this can happen is relatively new (w/in the past 6 months) and not a lot of people have caught onto it yet. But its a valid ruling, nonetheless.

[LotusHead]

Animate Dead
Card type: Enchantment
Oracle text: When Animate Dead comes into play, if it’s in play, it becomes an Aura with enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control and attach Animate Dead to it.
Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can’t be regenerated.

502.7. Protection

502.7a Protection is a static ability, written “Protection from [quality].” This quality is usually a color (as in “protection from black”) but can be any characteristic value. If the quality is a type, subtype, or supertype, the protection applies to sources that are permanents with that type, subtype, or supertype and to any sources not in play that are of that type, subtype, or supertype.

502.7b A permanent with protection can’t be targeted by spells with the stated quality and can’t be targeted by abilities from a source with the stated quality.

502.7c A permanent with protection can’t be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent with protection will be put into their owners’ graveyards as a state-based effect. (See rule 420, “State-Based Effects.”)

502.7d A permanent with protection can’t be equipped by Equipment that have the stated quality. Such Equipment become unattached from that permanent, but remain in play. (See rule 420, “State-Based Effects.”)

502.7e Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent that has protection is prevented.

502.7f If a creature with protection attacks, it can’t be blocked by creatures that have the stated quality.

502.7g Multiple instances of protection from the same quality on the same permanent are redundant.

420.5d An Aura attached to an illegal permanent or not attached to a permanent is put into its owner’s graveyard.

Thanks for all users who responded to this rules leak.  The above quotes are from May 2006 comp rules, and I don't know that any of these rules are changed for Sep 2006.  While many reponses were thought out, we must all admit that there is still some debate, or I at least feel that something is lacking.

I feel the most relevent rule here is:

502.7c A permanent with protection can’t be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent with protection will be put into their owners’ graveyards as a state-based effect
Other than say Eight and a Half Tales enchanted with Pacifism giving himself Pro-White to bust that enchantment off.

For the life of me, I can't shake the feeling that the Aura (Animate Dead) gets put onto Akroma BEFORE state-based effects occur, as there is no Targetting at this point, and Animate Dead is still resolving, THEN State Based Effects are checked, and the Aura is Dumped like Akroma's first prom date. I feel Animate Dead  remembers.

Thoughts?

EDIT: The only other thing I can think of is the "Can't trumps Can" clause

103. The Magic Golden Rules

103.1. Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 102.3a).

103.2. When a rule or effect says something can happen and another effect says it can’t, the “can’t” effect wins. For example, if one effect reads “You may play an additional land this turn” and another reads “You can’t play land cards this turn,” the effect that keeps you from playing lands wins out. Note that adding abilities to objects and removing abilities from objects don’t fall under this rule. See rule 407, “Adding and Removing Abilities.”

103.3. If an instruction requires taking an impossible action, it’s ignored. (In many cases the card will specify consequences for this; if it doesn’t, there’s no effect.)

.

[Khahan]

Thanks for all users who responded to this rules leak.  The above quotes are from May 2006 comp rules, and I don't know that any of these rules are changed for Sep 2006.  While many reponses were thought out, we must all admit that there is still some debate, or I at least feel that something is lacking.

I feel the most relevent rule here is:

502.7c A permanent with protection can’t be enchanted by Auras that have the stated quality. Such Auras attached to the permanent with protection will be put into their owners’ graveyards as a state-based effect
Other than say Eight and a Half Tales enchanted with Pacifism giving himself Pro-White to bust that enchantment off.

For the life of me, I can't shake the feeling that the Aura (Animate Dead) gets put onto Akroma BEFORE state-based effects occur, as there is no Targetting at this point, and Animate Dead is still resolving, THEN State Based Effects are checked, and the Aura is Dumped like Akroma's first prom date. I feel Animate Dead  remembers.

Thoughts?

Yes, thoughts:
SBE effects are irrelevant at the point that the aura tries to attach. The game does not check for SBE during the resolution of a spell.

Here is what happens (broken down very basically):

You announce animate dead and go through steps in 409 (playing a spell), putting it on the stack, determing and pay costs etc.
SBE are checked.
You receive priority and pass
SBE are checked
I receive priority and pass
Animate dead begins to resolve.
First, it enter play as an enchantment and its ability triggers.
SBE are checked and triggered abilities are placed on the stack (at this time, targets are chosen and you choose akroma).

You receive priority and pass
SBE are checked
I receive priority and pass
The triggered ability begins to resolve.

First is brings akroma into play and then moves onto the  next part of the text.
It tries to attach itself to Akroma, but cannot because she has pro-black and that means that black enchantments cannot be attached to her.
The spell has finished resolving, doing as much as it can.

SBE effects are checked and the game finds an enchant creature not enchanting anything, so it places animate dead in the graveyard...which triggers its leaves play ability. SBE are again checked and triggered abilities placed on the stack.

You receive priority and pass.
SBE are checked
I receive priority and pass.

Its triggered ability resolves and does nothing because it was never attached to anything.

EDIT: The only other thing I can think of is the "Can't trumps Can" clause

103. The Magic Golden Rules

103.1. Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 102.3a).

Irrelevant. Nothing in the text of animate dead says it can break the rules of enchantments. It would have to be worded along the lines of: Animate dead enchants that creature. Protection from X does not remove this enchantment.

103.2. When a rule or effect says something can happen and another effect says it can’t, the “can’t” effect wins. For example, if one effect reads “You may play an additional land this turn” and another reads “You can’t play land cards this turn,” the effect that keeps you from playing lands wins out. Note that adding abilities to objects and removing abilities from objects don’t fall under this rule. See rule 407, “Adding and Removing Abilities.”

No rule or effect says the animate dead CAN enchant Akroma.

103.3. If an instruction requires taking an impossible action, it’s ignored. (In many cases the card will specify consequences for this; if it doesn’t, there’s no effect.)

There you go....that's the golden rule to follow. The game attempts to take an impossible action (putting a pro black enchantment on a black creature) so it ignores the action.

[parallax]

People give state-based effects way too much credit.

The relevant rule is:

212.4k If an effect attempts to attach an Aura in play to a permanent or player, that permanent or player must be able to be enchanted by it. If the permanent or player can’t be, the Aura doesn’t move.

The key point is that the aura never becomes attached to Akroma. It doesn't attach and then fall off due to SBEs.

[Apollyon]

This is from the SCG rulings on Animate Dead:

Q: Can I Animate Dead a creature with protection from black and keep it in play?

A: No; you can target a creature with protection from black if it's in the graveyard - you couldn't if it was in play - and as such, it will come into play.

However, the enchantment will be put in the graveyard because once the creatures comes into play, the protection from black will cause an illegal target, and the creature will be put in the graveyard once the Animate Dead goes away.

So which is right, should we trusth SCG or a letter from a judge and people posting on a forum?

At the time that it was written, it was right. There was a rules change a while back. The latest Official ruling on it is here:
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0605b&L=dcijudge-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=2680

[LotusHead]

That's good enough for me! Thanks for the detailed explanation.

[Dr_Tongue]

Absolute Grace is another fun card that interacts with Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead that I used to SB back when Dargon was heavily played and Sui still breathed occasionally. Just another fun card that could be added to the hate arsenal of Tormods-Stifle etc.

[parallax]

Absolute Grace is another fun card that interacts with Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead that I used to SB back when Dargon was heavily played and Sui still breathed occasionally. Just another fun card that could be added to the hate arsenal of Tormods-Stifle etc.

Except it's so narrow. And now it leaves a three turn clock on the board.