Wheel Of fate: New Tech

[misslehead3]

Wheel of Fate

Will this be broken, the only thing i can think of is revamping grim long or mono-red burn. :lol: But seriously of a will this could be extremely busted, what does the vintage community think.

[Hi-Val]

This cannot be cast off a Will because spells without casting costs cannot be played.

Early reports indicate that this spell is ass.

[goblin stir fry]

this card is far to slow, even when you play it on turn 1. You get nothing until 5 by then theres a good chance the game is over.

[Vegeta2711]

Great in burn possibly. Everywhere else? Seems meh.

[BreathWeapon]

Terrible, these suspend cards have been nothing short of terrible; I think this mechanic is going to be a complete wash in the eternal formats.

[brianpk80]

Terrible, these suspend cards have been nothing short of terrible; I think this mechanic is going to be a complete wash in the eternal formats.

Unless the set has anything that does to Suspend what Fluctuator did for Cycling, you are probably right.  We'll have to see what the other four cards are in the Vintage staples suspend set (1 artifact, 1 for each color).  If Green gets a delayed Fastbond, that one might be worth looking at.

-BPK

[chrissss]

This is great for burn decks, I am sure I am going to test it a few times in my burn deck, but unfortunately, this is T1; where burn doesnt stand a chance . For legacy and extended, this card can be great. 2nd turn wheel, the other 3 turns you just burn away, and then you have 7 new burns.

I am rather happy with suspend to be honest, its a great way to make cards more powerfull, and at the same time, they arent broken (not yet ) in T1. 

[vartemis]

You could also use it in a control type deck.  You know when its going to resolve, so you can counter away and bounce their perms, and then they loose them when you wheel.  It will obviously not fit into any deck established, but i think its another one of those cards that requires a deck being built around them, and more than likely it will be for causal.

j

[kombat]

Terrible, these suspend cards have been nothing short of terrible; I think this mechanic is going to be a complete wash in the eternal formats.

What makes you think Wizards has any interest at all in designing cards that are good in Eternal formats?  Wizards doesn't care about helping out Vintage and Legacy.  During development, they might give a passing thought to making sure new cards don't break Eternal formats, but they certainly don't waste design space on "cherries" for Vintage and Legacy.  Their sole concern is selling packs to Standard and Limited players, so they create cards for the current environment.

Occassionally, a new card may slip through the cracks and have some sort of unforseen interaction with other, obscure older cards that produce a sufficiently powerful interaction to make it into some Vintage decks, but those are mistakes, not gifts (eg., Flame Fusillade/Time Vault, Forbidden Orchard/Oath of Druids, Yawgmoth's Will, etc.)

[jcb193]

What makes you think Wizards has any interest at all in designing cards that are good in Eternal formats? 

I would have agreed with this a few years ago, but i sincerely think they are trying to make some cards for us these days.

[Storm]

What makes you think Wizards has any interest at all in designing cards that are good in Eternal formats? 

I would have agreed with this a few years ago, but i sincerely think they are trying to make some cards for us these days.

Who thinks wizards SHOULD be designing cards for Vintage?  I don't.  The last card they designed for this format was Chalice. 

[zeus-online]

I think they should think about vintage when making cards. I.E. consider how good the card will be....like figuring out that Tendril's of agony instantly made 95% of all other combo decks obsolete. (and aggro for that matter)

/Zeus

[sundering jerk]

I play with stifle, which isn't a bad card to have against combo anyway(not the greatest card just not bad). I hope people play this so I can just stifle it. Or if I have no hand on turn 4(common), ..... don't care.

After seeing this card, bloom, and the red tendrills, I think I might just play T2

[Disburden]

I play with stifle, which isn't a bad card to have against combo anyway(not the greatest card just not bad). I hope people play this so I can just stifle it. Or if I have no hand on turn 4(common), ..... don't care.

After seeing this card, bloom, and the red tendrills, I think I might just play T2

Stifle is going to serverly screw anyone that plays cards with Suspend. That is my prediction anyway. Waiting three turns to see a Lotus Bloom only to get the comes into play triggered ability Stifled is going to suck big time. Now your suspended card is suspended forever. Add this up to how you lost tempo and card advantage in the first place and your opponent is in big trouble. This is especially bad in a control mirror. I was excited about suspend, then I read the rules to the mechanic and now I hate it. It's way too slow for Vintage and you lose too much in the early game for it.

[Mr. Nightmare]

If these get popular in T2, Extended, or even legacy, Remand just got ridiculously good.  (Not that it wasn't already)

[BreathWeapon]

Terrible, these suspend cards have been nothing short of terrible; I think this mechanic is going to be a complete wash in the eternal formats.

What makes you think Wizards has any interest at all in designing cards that are good in Eternal formats?  Wizards doesn't care about helping out Vintage and Legacy.  During development, they might give a passing thought to making sure new cards don't break Eternal formats, but they certainly don't waste design space on "cherries" for Vintage and Legacy.  Their sole concern is selling packs to Standard and Limited players, so they create cards for the current environment.

Occassionally, a new card may slip through the cracks and have some sort of unforseen interaction with other, obscure older cards that produce a sufficiently powerful interaction to make it into some Vintage decks, but those are mistakes, not gifts (eg., Flame Fusillade/Time Vault, Forbidden Orchard/Oath of Druids, Yawgmoth's Will, etc.)

Who said I thought Wizards should design cards for T1 and T1.5? What I was pointing out was that the suspend mechanic would have no impact on T1 and little to no impact on T1.5, which is a dissapointment from the perspective of an eternal format player. I'm not evern certain these cards are going to be playable in Extended, maybe Wheel of Fate in Affinity or Ichorid or Zoo, so the mechanic seems to be over costed for the effect in anything but Standard.

[Anusien]

I don't know, this could have a ridiculous impact in Extended.  Boros Deck Wins could definitely benefit, as Veggies said, from the burn.

Back on-topic, we've seen only a handful of Suspend's offerings.  I think you're right though, most of these are severe card disadvantage in the short term, with a potential payoff, but I can't think of any deck that wants to wait a few turns for its benefit; since you can easily get blown out in those few turns.

[SiegeX]

This cannot be cast off a Will because spells without casting costs cannot be played.

Early reports indicate that this spell is ass.

This is going to have to change in some form or another unless WotC is going to errata suspend cards to not be "played" but "comes into play."  Then again they may make some very narrow exception that cards without mana costs can be played (and put on the stack) if and only if their suspend cost was paid and the last time counter was removed from it.

[rmn]

We really really need a suspend Balance.  That would make me very very happy.

This card sucks in T1 though, obv obv.

[taniquetil]

Option One:
You drop mana acceleration and play some spells, allowing you to power into turn one Wheel of Fortune with gas. You now 'begin' the game with a spell count of 4 and 7 cards in hand.  You have a good chance of winning the game.

Option Two:
You drop mana acceleration and play Wheel of Fate, but can't drop the gas because you have nothing to play. Your opponent now 'begins' the game with +4 card advantage while you have nothing to show for your turn one besides a spell which won't resolve for another 4 turns.

Yeah, it's bad.

[Whatever Works]

I like this card alot. Not in a straight combo deck, but perhaps in some form of red fish like deck that feinstein would play.

Regardless, this card WILL see play in type 2 and extended for sure... super strong ability that is prepayed for! In some cases this could be better then wheel of fortune. Though I wouldnt go as far to say that this will be busted in type 1... it could be good.

Its not like games never go past turn 4 in type 1... I mean sure some combos are fast, but to say its to slow is just redicules... If it was suspend 3 or 2 it would be to good, 4 is fair...

Kyle L.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

FYI, if you play it on turn 1, it resolves on turn 5, not 4.

The picture is ridiculously hot.

Anybody notice how this gets cast on your upkeep? This means you actually see 8 cards when it resolves (better timing than any previous draw7s).

In any case, I can't wait to play Standard again!

-Bob

[parallax]

FYI, if you play it on turn 1, it resolves on turn 5, not 4.

The picture is ridiculously hot.

Anybody notice how this gets cast on your upkeep? This means you actually see 8 cards when it resolves (better timing than any previous draw7s).

In any case, I can't wait to play Standard again!

-Bob

Turn 5, true. Even Vintage games that do go to turn 5, are not the type of match-ups that really want draw7s or playing 4 turns at -1 card in hand.

Memory Jar still has better timing than this does, though.

[TimeWizzle]

I am still waiting to see what cards they print that remove (or reduce) time counters on suspend spells (like Clockspinning).  If there is a card like the Medallions that reduces the # of time counters, This could be decent, but probably still not good enough for combo.

[Draven]

I am still waiting to see what cards they print that remove (or reduce) time counters on suspend spells (like Clockspinning).  If there is a card like the Medallions that reduces the # of time counters, This could be decent, but probably still not good enough for combo.

It was brought up in the Wizards article spoiling Paradox Haze, but 2 upkeeps equal half as many suspend turns.

Not that I would try that trick in Vintage.

Also, I saw a Kraken on MTG Salvation that is  6/6, unblockabale suspend 9, however, you  get to remove a counter for each spell the opponant plays. That's not good, but, like you said, there are seeming to be other ways to remove counters...

[Implacable]

I would just like to point out that, when you Remand a spell with Suspend, your opponent will cry.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It's worth pointing out that this has Flashback 0 if you can Recoup it.

(Yes, the CMC is 0 and Flashback is a replacement cost)

[Pathian]

It's worth pointing out that this has Flashback 0 if you can Recoup it.

(Yes, the CMC is 0 and Flashback is a replacement cost)

I'm fairly sure that's incorrect. The current ruling on cards with no CMC is...

# A card with no mana cost can't be normally played as a spell, because it's impossible to pay a nonexistent cost in step 401.9h. (Note that this is different than a spell that costs 0 Mana, which is a cost that can be paid.) If there are any additional costs associated with playing a spell, a card with no mana cost still can't be played this way: { } + is an impossible operation to calculate.
# If there’s a way to play such a card without paying its mana cost, then it can be played as a spell. This is possible if an effect allows it to be played "without paying its mana cost" (such as suspend or Spelljack do, for example), or if an effect allows it to be played for an alternative cost (such as Fist of Suns does, for example).
# A card with no mana cost has converted mana cost 0.

The first half of the Flashback ability reads literally as follows
"You may play this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost"

okay so far

Now what does recoup do?

Target sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. If you play that card this turn, its flashback cost becomes equal to its mana cost as you play it. (Mana cost includes color.)

Mana cost, not CMC

Thus, a card without a mana cost has a CMC of 0, but the mana cost (which Recoup looks for) is still nonexistant, or {} to use their notation, as opposed to . Therefore, Recoup would give a suspend card without a mana cost Flashback {}, not Flashback . And as you can't actually pay {}, you can't play it.

This has also been confirmed by level 4 Judge Scott Marshall on the DCIJUDGE-L mailing list

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=30438.msg442628#msg442628

EDIT: Added confirmation and link to other post

[AmbivalentDuck]

There's a thread going on this in the rule forums right now actually.  There's an "old" Evermind ruling saying that effects looking for its CC (not just CMC) see 0.  How that interacts with Recoup isn't 100% clear under the Oracle wording.

Update: the new rules definitely update the ruling in the Saviors FAQ.  No crazy Flashback broken-ness.