[New Card Discussion] Trickbind

[Namingway]

There's a new card in Time Spiral called Trickbind.
For those of you who haven't heard of the card, here it is:

Trickbind - 1U
Instant
Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities.)
Counter target activated or triggered ability.
Activated or triggered abilties cannot be played by that card until end of turn.

It looks like Long will have to maindeck Duress for this. So long, Pitch Long. 
It could also be good vs. CS (Welder, Slaver), UbaStax (Bazaar, Welder), Dragon (Dragon)...
I don't think this card will be played maindeck, except in Fish. But I could be wrong. Nevertheless, it totally pwns Tendrils of Agony.
What do you think?

[oneofchaos]

I like stifle more still due to the fact you can turn 1 it, to counter a fetch, while this is most likely a turn 2 play.  Who knows tho, only time and/or feinstein will tell.

[Khahan]

This is a proactive card and not that great.

Its shines against morphling if he ever makes a comeback.  But he's worthless against welder or oath or storm.
If you do this in response to a welder activation, it does not counter that activation and the welder player wouldn't be using that ability again.
It cannot be cast in time to stop oath or storm triggers.

It may show up in some sideboard cards, but I doubt it will last long there.  Its just not useful, although it is better than bind.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

This is a proactive card and not that great.

Its shines against morphling if he ever makes a comeback.  But he's worthless against welder or oath or storm.
If you do this in response to a welder activation, it does not counter that activation and the welder player wouldn't be using that ability again.
It cannot be cast in time to stop oath or storm triggers.

It may show up in some sideboard cards, but I doubt it will last long there.  Its just not useful, although it is better than bind.

Have you actually read the card?
"Counter target activated or triggered ability."

So i don't see your points.

However in my eyes Stifle is better.

[Evenpence]

Who knows tho, only time and/or feinstein will tell.

lol.

Seriously though, this card is fine.  Time Spiral looks to add alot to Vintage, at least in small cards here and there which could eventually make a large impact through the mass of them being incorporated into different decks.  Most of the Split-Second cards might find a home in the sideboard for Vintage, and the boucne spell (Wipe Away?) will probably be played maindeck in quite a few decks, especially Slaver.

[LordHomerCat]

Did anyone else notice that this is a lot like Interdict, which was (functionally) broken when they updated the rules in 6th Edition?  Pretty cool, if you ask me.  Also, this card does seem good, split second stifle can't be all bad.

[[FtN|FH] Negator]

I think the effect is pretty good. Like a pimped Stifle.
The casting costs of 2 could be a problem. Stifle is good because its cheap. Keeping 2 mana open in a not pure reactiv deck like fish can be a problem. But time will tell.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Activated or triggered abilties cannot be played by that card until end of turn.

A stifle that stops bargain/tog/mongrel/ravager!

I think it's playable in type 1, and BUSTED everywhere else.

[wethepeople]

Hasnt this card already been discussed in a thread like a week ago found in the Improvement Forum?

[MarkPharaoh]

Hasnt this card already been discussed in a thread like a week ago found in the Improvement Forum?

Oh, people read that forum?

[Guli]

Hasnt this card already been discussed in a thread like a week ago found in the Improvement Forum?

Oh, people read that forum?

Yes[/s]

Please don't respond lamely to already lame posts. Unless it's really funny. Which this isn't.
- Bram

[Glix]

Trickbind is extremely strong, imo.

And to whoever asked, this is how inderdict originally worked w/ interupts (except it could be countered).

The biggest flaw is one extra mana, which a lot of decks dont have against combo.

Heres what it can do, which is amazing:  Stop storm, fetches, slavers, smokestack, welder for a turn.  More importanatly, this card dominated Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necropotence, which is a huge plus.  Furthuremore, double counter backup doesn't stop this, not even a misd can stop it.

In my opinion, slower disruptive decks that don't run moxen shouldn't run it, and decks that use stifle primarily for mana disruption (ss) may want to opt for the cheaper stifle, but slower fish decks (like urban or spc) may want to explore the more expesnive but much stronger trickbind.

Its scary how much 1 mana means in this format.  Trickbind will see play, i would bet, how much is dependent on other factors.

[GUnit]

I think this card will have a profound impact on vintage. The number one win condition in vintage right now is tendrils. This is a two mana uncounterable answer to that win condition, in the most powerful colour in the format. It also deals with about a thousand other threats and complements mana denial strategies nicely. It seems like wizards just keeps printing powerful cards for fish in vintage (although the use of this card will be widespread if combo remains prevalent). I have a feeling the Time Spiral may push fish to the forefront of the metagame, at least until people adjust. I'm getting a playset of these immediately.

[Hi-Val]

I don't think that this will replace Stifle in maindecks but it might affect the anti-combo slot on the sideboards of decks. Will this turn out stronger than Orim's Chant or True Believer or good ol' Stifle itself against combo?

If I'm paying 2 to stifle a Wasteland, I better be stifling with Teferi's Response...

[sundering jerk]

I honestly think Wizards hates any deck that isn't aggro. Damn it to hell!!!!

I was going to start playing type2(something I never thought I would say) because of the new red storm but now .... screw that plan. I hate fighting aggro and I'm sure this will only encourage silly stuf.

[zeus-online]

I honestly think Wizards hates any deck that isn't aggro. Damn it to hell!!!!

Not really, they just want all decks to cointain lots of creatures....playing control? Use a loxodon hierach or meloku! playing combo? Use naga, traitor to mortals! Kinda dumb if you ask me...

At worst this card might make people run more discard effects.

/Zeus

[wethepeople]

Trickbind and Wipe Away pretty much stop Gifts right there.

[brianpk80]

Trickbind and Wipe Away pretty much stop Gifts right there.

Yes.  As much as Time Spiral seems geared to punish storm combo, the splash damage to Gifts decks is even worse.

-BPK

[Imsomniac101]

Shadow of Doubt and Orim's Chant are both better at stopping combo. And even those are struggling to see play.

[GUnit]

Shadow of Doubt and Orim's Chant are both better at stopping combo. And even those are struggling to see play.

This simply isn't true. Shadow of Doubt has a worse casting cost and it can be countered.

Orim's chant has the 1CC going for it, but just like SoD it can also be countered, and it has the additional downside that it has to be used at the correct time and your opponent gets to retain some of his resources. With trickbind your opponent is going all-out and playing the full 9 spells + tendrils FTW. You're effectively countering 10 spells with one uncounterable beast that happens to be useful in many other situations as well.

Trickbind I don't see as a direct replacement for stifle, I see it as the go-to SB answer for long.dec, which may work its way into the main decks of some fish builds.

[chrissss]

Why is there a card discussion in every forum here?
Iits just stupid, because all the points people say here, have been said ages ago in the topic in the T1 development forum.

Maybe people just like to ramble on about the same issues.

Also, people who say here that Trick bind isnt a problem, because its just one more card that has to be duressed, well, its still one extra card, so I dont really think thats an arguement. The opponent will most likely counter cards like that as well, so I really think that this baby together with Children will make Storm based life loss a lot more difficult to achieve.

[zeus-online]

Trickbind and Wipe Away pretty much stop Gifts right there.

Yes.  As much as Time Spiral seems geared to punish storm combo, the splash damage to Gifts decks is even worse.

-BPK

Am i to understand that you think everyone will run 4x wipe away and 4x trickbind?....

/Zeus

[GUnit]

Trickbind and Wipe Away pretty much stop Gifts right there.

Yes.  As much as Time Spiral seems geared to punish storm combo, the splash damage to Gifts decks is even worse.

-BPK

Am i to understand that you think everyone will run 4x wipe away and 4x trickbind?....

/Zeus

Well, part of the issue becomes that you have to counter tutors more often, since they will be able to fetch uncounterable answers. Best case scenario these two cards will simply change the dynamics of how gifts and storm are played, situationally.

Trickbind definitely makes the duress route of grim long seem more appealing than the FoW/MisD route of pitch long.

[zeus-online]

Trickbind and Wipe Away pretty much stop Gifts right there.

Yes.  As much as Time Spiral seems geared to punish storm combo, the splash damage to Gifts decks is even worse.

-BPK

Am i to understand that you think everyone will run 4x wipe away and 4x trickbind?....

/Zeus

Well, part of the issue becomes that you have to counter tutors more often, since they will be able to fetch uncounterable answers. Best case scenario these two cards will simply change the dynamics of how gifts and storm are played, situationally.

Trickbind definitely makes the duress route of grim long seem more appealing than the FoW/MisD route of pitch long.

At worst this card might make people run more discard effects.

As much as i hate quoting myself....

/Zeus

[brianpk80]

Am i to understand that you think everyone will run 4x wipe away and 4x trickbind?....

I never said that.  I said that Trickbind is more deleterious to the Tendrils kill in Gifts than its counterpart in Pitch Long.  Why?  Because the main drawback Trickbind has is its casting cost.  Pitch Long can kill you with Tendrils before you have 1U set up and additionally can Jar/Timetwister the Trickbind away.  Gifts has neither of those options. 

-BPK

[Dakkon]

Am i to understand that you think everyone will run 4x wipe away and 4x trickbind?....

I never said that.  I said that Trickbind is more deleterious to the Tendrils kill in Gifts than its counterpart in Pitch Long.  Why?  Because the main drawback Trickbind has is its casting cost.  Pitch Long can kill you with Tendrils before you have 1U set up and additionally can Jar/Timetwister the Trickbind away.  Gifts has neither of those options. 

-BPK

The thing about Gifts though, is that it can adapt. You cant really shut down Gifts ever because if all else fails they'll just tweak the mana base and add duress. or just stretch the game out untill they can hardcast DSC. Then Wipe away will have little affect. At turn 5+ its not too difficult for the Gifts player to just keep Hard-casting DSC every turn IF they have to. Its also an option for them to just keep the fish player from winning by countering some of the stuff that CAN be countered and gaining enough board position to try BOTH routes to winning. I highly doubt the fish player will have BOTH trickbind AND wipe away in their hand at the same time. So if one route fails, they'll try the other.

Also, it is highly feasable that the fish player can have 1U to use trick bind by turn 1. All they need in a land and a mox. MDG uses merchant scroll to set up FOW all the time. as long as the fish player has a mana base to support a 1st turn trickbind I dont think it matters.

Another point is the fish player wants to cast other stuff. They wont have 1U up all the time since they want to cast beaters and other utility. So the gifts player would just combo out after the fish player played something. They cant sit on 1U forever w/o losing to collossus or losing their board to pyroclasm or massacre.

The main point thoguh is that Gifts has BOTH collossus AND tendrils. They would have to sit on 2-3 mana to deter the gifts player. And they would need the right spell. This is MORE effective against long imo.

[brianpk80]

The thing about Gifts though, is that it can adapt. You cant really shut down Gifts ever because if all else fails they'll just tweak the mana base and add duress. or just stretch the game out untill they can hardcast DSC. Then Wipe away will have little affect. At turn 5+ its not too difficult for the Gifts player to just keep Hard-casting DSC every turn IF they have to. Its also an option for them to just keep the fish player from winning by countering some of the stuff that CAN be countered and gaining enough board position to try BOTH routes to winning. I highly doubt the fish player will have BOTH trickbind AND wipe away in their hand at the same time. So if one route fails, they'll try the other.

You raise some good points.  However, I find that my comments have been misconstrued.  You seem to be interpreting my words as though I celebrated Wipe Away and Trickbind as the funeral march for Meandeck Gifts.  That's simply not true.  What I said was that both Wipe Away and Trickbind are stronger in the Gifts matchup than the Long matchup.  It's difficult to disagree with that comparison, considering that Wipe Away is nearly useless pre-board v. Long and because Long tends to kill faster than Gifts, Trickbind is much more likely to come online in the latter matchup.  Do you disagree?   

Secondly, it is neither easy nor desirable for Gifts to be in the position where it must hardcast Darksteel Colossus every turn.  Especially not beginning with the fifth turn.   Rarely if ever would he come down on the fifth turn, and if he does, chances are he won't be returning on the sixth.  If you are hardcasting DSC on the fifth turn, the credit likely goes to a fortuitous Mana Drain (I can only see this realistically happening v. Workshop.dec), an Academy, Mana Vault, and a Black Lotus, only one of which is a renewable resource each turn and the other which happens to be the biggest Wasteland target in the format.   

Also, it is highly feasable that the fish player can have 1U to use trick bind by turn 1. All they need in a land and a mox. MDG uses merchant scroll to set up FOW all the time. as long as the fish player has a mana base to support a 1st turn trickbind I dont think it matters.

I have reservations about this.  Having played somewhere between 5 and 6 billion matches against storm combo with Fish, I find that 1U is a luxury that doesn't always pan out.  First of all, if you are on the draw, then there's a fair chance you will be killed before you even lay a land, sometimes even if you have FoW in your opening hand.  Secondly, when your turn finally arrives, you may or may not have a Mox or other acceleration and if you do, then your own strategy is disrupted because you can't cast anything; instead you would opt to keep Trickbind as your relevant play and if your opponent Tinkers, hardcasts Jar, Timetwisters, or incorporates Duress, then you'll lose the Trickbind and probably lose 20+ life in the next turn or two.  Sure you can Trickbind the Jar, but then you risk defenselessness vis-a-vis Long's next ploy.       

Another point is the fish player wants to cast other stuff. They wont have 1U up all the time since they want to cast beaters and other utility. So the gifts player would just combo out after the fish player played something. They cant sit on 1U forever w/o losing to collossus or losing their board to pyroclasm or massacre.

Exactly.  But this is why Trickbind is much less a safeguard against Long than it is against Gifts.  Trickbind is going to stop Meandeck Gifts' Tendrils kill for the simple reason that 1U will be available to Fish pretty much invariably in a Gifts matchup, where the same cannot be said of Long.  That said, if I could, I would keep 1U open at all costs if I could v. Long.  On the other hand, if I were playing Fish v. Gifts, I wouldn't leave 1U untapped until it became clear a loaded Yawgmoth's Will was imminent.  For instance, if I had Trickbind in my opening hand, I wouldn't consciously spare the 1U until the third or fourth turn when it looks like my opponent is about to Gifts for the win.  As for Wipe Away, well, I have a hard time buying any line of reasoning that suggests it's more useful in the Storm matchup than v. Gifts.  Maybe once in a while you could Wipe Away a Memory Jar or a big man post sideboard, but it's going to be pretty useless game one.  Contrast this with the Gifts matchup where it singlehandedly addresses one of their two win conditions.  And as for keeping mana available, you don't necessarily have to hold back for Wipe Away because if the Gifts player cannot or does not resolve Time Walk immediately after Tinker, then you simply bounce the Colossus during your next main phase. 

In sum, both cards are more useful in the Gifts matchup than Long, as they are currently built.  Whether this remains true after both decks adapt to Time Spiral remains to be seen.

-BPK