[Deck] Eternal Oath

[Seraphim3577]

not to be too brutal about your comments, but...
First, oath (and i mean all oath decks) usually spends its hand trying to resolve oath.  Most other decks in the environment will put up a significant fight when you try to resolve oath.  Therfore, the idea of just being able to counter the stp your opponent plays on your tyrant isn't exactly an option that I would be extremely comfortable with.

Second; Extract on timewalk still allows the Eternal Oath player to burning wish for the timewalk again.  While such a play could "hurt" the Eternal Oath player by forcing them to spend 1R in addition to the 1U to take that next turn, it wouldn't cripple the deck by any means.  Tormod's crypt or leyline of the void would definitely neuter the deck as I was saying, though.

So, in conclusion, Please think your comments through before posting.  Examine the decklist before you assume that a claim made by its creator is false. 

Thanks,
Nick

[AmbivalentDuck]

You're describing a Fish deck maindecking serious Oath hate game 1 (which should *not* happen in this meta).  Nobody else runs StP OR Extract game 1.  If you actually deplete your hand resolving Oath against UW FISH, you're playing very poorly.  By game 2, you've added in Fish hate or at least a second Tyrant. 

Extract on Time Walk gives you a *small* chance of actually bouncing Burning Wish to your hand the turn you Oath.  The probability of seeing the Wish before any of 3 Witnesses  is 25%.  Beyond that, the probability that your *second* Oath will turn up Wish before either of the two remaining Witnesses is still 33%.  Those are *not* great odds.  Your *third* wish is 50%.  Your "response" is to tutor aggressively for the Wish and then spend 4 mana at sorcery speed.  Hopefully in the early game.  Alternatively, the Cunning Wish + Tyrant version lets Witness grab *any* combo piece (Mox, Wish, or Brain Freeze) or disruption or Time Walk at leizure.

EDIT: clarity.  UW is one of *few* decks that would maindeck StP and Extract.  Not necessarily both at once.  Changed "and" to "or" to clarify this.

[Seraphim3577]

I'm not saying that fish runs stp and extract (at least not preboard).  What I am saying is that Fish maindecks stp.  If you oath out a tyrant on your turn, what is stopping them from stping your tyrant?  A hopeful counterspell that you would still have in your hand in the event that you didn't get into a counterwar with them?

Post-board, more than fish bring in extract. Most Oath decks (angel, tyrant, salvagers, etc...) are not very resiliant to extract.  Sure, if you board in an extra tyrant that would make it alot better, but do you really want to have to be boarding in cards that should be winning you games you've already won, or games that you are having trouble with.  I haven't seen many decklists that have answers to challice for 2 or meddling mage set to oath maindeck.  Those are all things that fish can do.  Even Stax can challice for 2 on the first turn as well without much of a problem, either. 

Yes, Tidesprout Tyrant can be a very good win condition for this deck, I just don't believe it is better than the eternal witness engine.  The eternal witness engine (when i was running the skull clamps) was only passing the turn after the first oath when after it had drawn 7 cards at the least (with the opponent drawing none).  At the best it was winning on that turn.  I like the goblin bombardment solution that was suggested because it is alot easier to get that one card than trying to assemble multiple other combo piecies (yawg will + rebound or crucible + fastbond + zuran orb).

I'm not arguing the merits of the tyrant builds, just its resliance to hate and dead draws (tyrant) that the eternal oath deck doesn't suffer from.

I also do not recommend using the cunning wish board.  Burning wish boards have come to be the standard of most type 1 decks for a reason.  Massacre is an amazing tool to have vs fish.  Meltdown is great vs most of the field but especially stax.  etc...

Thanks for your comments though, they are still appreciated.  Any that you might add to make the current version (the topic of the post) better are welcomed and encouraged.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Um, since you're running 10-11 counterspells and a large number of tutors and draw, I wouldn't call it hopeful. They have Force of Will.  That's it.  Force of Will doesn't let them play control against you (you *will* win if they try), it lets them protect their threats and see turn 2 against combo.  Any reference to Voidmage Prodigy is moot since you'd be drawing out its ability with removal like Engineered Explosives, REB, or simple bounce.

It's also worth pointing out that Chalice for 2 costs 4 mana.  If Fish can resolve that against you...wow.  Stax doing so is a more valid concern and a large part of the reason why I advocate Cunning Wish (->Rebuild or Oxidize).

Burning Wish is horrible outside of combo.  It forces you to tap out *DURING YOUR OWN TURN.*  Most "wish" sideboards in this format (and there are presently *very* few) are Cunning Wish or Death Wish sideboards.  As far as Massacre is concerned, if it's "amazing" the UW Fish player has starkly overcommitted and deserves to lose.  6 mana is notably a large amount against the UB and Aether Vial based Fish varieties.

but do you really want to have to be boarding in cards that should be winning you games you've already won, or games that you are having trouble with

It's 1 sideboard slot.  And it would go to either Simic Sky Swallower or Thunder Dragon.  Far better than wasting maindeck slots on a bloated win condition.  On the whole "answers to permanents" line, one copy of Engineered Explosives in a deck with a 5 color manabase like Oath can do amazing things as can Cunning Wish for bounce/removal.

[Seraphim3577]

I agree that a cunning wish board could be useful, but it hurts the tempo of this deck, a lot.

As far as massacre is concerned, the most potent threat fish has against you is meddling mage.  Most Oath decks are running very few answers to such a card (if any).  The best answer to meddling mage is counterspell.  But since meddling mage is a must counter card (unless you have already gotten your oath in play, of course) and they run 4 force of will, this effectively comes to 8 must counter cards.  This brings us to the 2nd point.  Though Oath is running 4 fows, 4 rune snag / memory lapse / mana drain / remand / counterspell, and 2 misdirection, I have found too many times that though I may have a force of will, counterspell, and misdirection in my hand, those would be the only blue cards in my hand (having already used my brainstorm to find oath).  This creates a play in which you have 2 counters at best.  While this will work most of the time, this means that you have to have 4 mana open and the ability to pitch your hand upon attempting to resolve oath. 

So say you out counter the fish player 2-2 (spending one counter on their meddling mage and one on their fow for your oath), pitching your hand to resolve oath.
Great, now what do you do about his swords to plowshares the next turn on your tyrant that just flipped out from the oath before you draw your card?

That is what I am saying is the problem this deck has vs fish.  And as most people that have actually tested the matchup say, fish is a horrible matchup for angel oath, and likely for tyrant oath as well.  Fish's mana denial strategy hinders oath's ability to have that extra mana up for casting a counter while playing oath, too. 

I honestly haven't seen many oath decks running EE.  Personally, I think its one of the best answers the deck can offer (especially for a fish / stax heavy meta).  The burning wish for massacre plan has actually worked out for me against fish decks.  Its not the fact that they overcommit, its the fact that every creature except jotun grunt dies to a massacre.  Fish has to put the oath player on a clock and one grizzly bear won't do the job.  That is why massacre is a good answer.

I wasn't saying that fish runs chalice, especially not for 2 since it would be suicide.  I am saying that challice for 2 is a very common anti-oath answer.  One that oath players should be able to answer.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Take a look at Brian's Fish build over in the "Vintage Forum."  That's what Fish will look like for the next 3 months give or take 8 cards for personal preference and metagame.

Your *best* answers to that version of Fish are Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Null Rod, and Thunder Dragon.  I'm sure that part of the reason Brian advocated Null Rod is because it's one of Oath's *few* answers to an important part of his deck: Aether Vial.  Notice that Massacre isn't on the list because he doesn't need to fetch out Plains.  And even if he does game one (Burning Wish -> Massacre is pretty unusual) he won't do it games 2 and 3.  And especially not if he's scouted.  And that still doesn't guarantee a kill.

Personally, I'd think *hard* about not maindecking at least one Engineered Explosives in a modern Oath deck.  If the environment starts getting really Fishy, I'd also toss in a Pernicious Deed or two.  Unlike Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed can completely reset the Fish player's board development. 

Tidespout can do the same thing because it can reset the board *EVEN IF IT GETS BOUNCED OR RFGED.*  That gives you so much tempo that Cunning Wish -> Research isn't unrealistic.   Cunning Wish may cost more in terms of mana, but it still costs less tempo.  Cunning Wish lets you play the combo-control role instead of the combo role that you're trying to play.  If you want a combo role, play Long.  Otherwise, you're stuck having to actually interact with your opponent.  This requires having mana open and playing with spells, like Mana Drain, that give you huge tempo swings.  Usually, you'd much rather play Drain during your opponent's turn.

Also, I'd just let the Mage resolve unless I was packing a hand full of Drains and FoWs.  I'd wait a few turns and counter their real threats until I could tutor up and protect the Explosives or Pernicious Deed.  Then I'd wipe the board and win.  A smart Fish player might even name Brainstorm over Oath and screw me out of card selection (hoping that I get stuck with nearly uncastable angels in my hand).

Look carefully at Brian's deck: his goal isn't to stop the Oath itself.  His goal is stick you with uncastable creatures in hand or just take the 6 life and steal your Akroma.  In this case, that translates to your Tyrant.  Both the Witness only and Tyrant versions are relatively resilient to that strategy, but I'd still think long and hard about who's the control and who's the beatdown before just trying to force through an Oath and combo out as quickly as possible.

[brianpk80]

As far as massacre is concerned, the most potent threat fish has against you is meddling mage.  Most Oath decks are running very few answers to such a card (if any).  The best answer to meddling mage is counterspell.  But since meddling mage is a must counter card (unless you have already gotten your oath in play, of course) and they run 4 force of will, this effectively comes to 8 must counter cards.  This brings us to the 2nd point.  Though Oath is running 4 fows, 4 rune snag / memory lapse / mana drain / remand / counterspell, and 2 misdirection, I have found too many times that though I may have a force of will, counterspell, and misdirection in my hand, those would be the only blue cards in my hand (having already used my brainstorm to find oath).  This creates a play in which you have 2 counters at best.  While this will work most of the time, this means that you have to have 4 mana open and the ability to pitch your hand upon attempting to resolve oath. 

That is what I am saying is the problem this deck has vs fish.  And as most people that have actually tested the matchup say, fish is a horrible matchup for angel oath, and likely for tyrant oath as well.  Fish's mana denial strategy hinders oath's ability to have that extra mana up for casting a counter while playing oath, too. 

...
That is why massacre is a good answer.

A lot of what you say is true.  When I played Oath, Fish my worst match-up (next to combo sometimes, which was a little better than average cause I used a lot of mana denial lock pieces) and the thing I hated most was Turn 1 Underground, Mox Dark Confidant, cause that little guy keeps turning over Stifles, Edicts, Swords, etc.  I sideboarded Massacre and Academy Rector -> Moat for that match-up and while strong, but neither one really made a huge difference.  Oath is not as likely to have Undergrounds in play either compared to other Drain decks.  You'll be relying on Orchards for mana and probably fetching Tropicals over Underground Seas.  Plus, UB Fish like SS doesn't run Tundras so Massacre can be real moot, trying to muster up BB2. 

Now that I am back to playing Fish, I rate Oath as a difficult match-up but slightly favorable overall.  It annoys me because it's a lot more luck driven than most other matches.  Oath will probably win if it resolves Oath of Druids on the first turn with a Forbidden Orchard.  But this newer Fish build does have more responses than old Fish like Drake and Stern Proctor.  Anything outside of Orchard, Mox, Oath, go! usually delivers the match to Fish.  AEther Vial goes a long way in preventing it.  You can't counter the Mage, Waterfront Bouncer, or Stern Proctor w. a Vial in play and I Vial out Voidmages to counter the Oath.  Then Vialing out a Gilded Drake is usually all it takes to win against Oath.  He can't be Duressed or countered if Vial is in play. 

-BPK

[Seraphim3577]

Well noted BPK.

I appreciate the comments from both you and duck on this topic (even if they get a little heated at times). 

For all of the answers mentioned by bpk for oath, the only one that would stop the oath engine i am running is meddling mage.  Gilded drake on an eternal witness is almost silly, especially when I am still recurring timewalk and getting another witness out of the deck.Stern Proctor can be a problem when coupled with meddling mage, but as you can see in my list, I am maindecking 2 copies of EE. 

I haven't fully come to a conclusion as to what is the best way for the deck to go off, though.  I read a report on Randy Beuhler's Gifts-Oath deck that he ran in a tournament a year ago.  It featured the tinker / oath for colossus kill or the yawg will into tendrils kill.  I really like the premise of that deck.  Randy's analysis of what he took out of meandeck gifts to build the Gifts-Oath build was very interesting. 

I might revert back to the yawg will version that uses eternal witness to fill the yard and do a big tendrills kill.


2 Eternal Witness
4 Oath of Druitds
1 Krosan Reclamation

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection

2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
2 Engineered Explosives (could be stifle)


1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Yawogomoth's Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Tendrills of Agony

1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Volcanic Island


sb:
3 Massacre
1 Tendrills of Agony
1 Meltdown
1 Hull Breach
3 Swords To Plowshares
1 Rebuild
3 Pithing Needle
2 Simic Sky Swallower

[Harlequin]

I really can't see the point behind not running Mana Drain.  Damage from Mana burn is 9 times out of 10 irrelevant.  With cards like Yawg will, Skull clamp, and Gifts ungiven in your board .. Mana Drain seems like a fairly natural choice seeing as how your already planning to run 4 counterspell. 

[GrandpaBelcher]

That list looks pretty solid.  Quite sassy.  I'm interested to hear how it goes and might test it a bit myself.

I agree with Mana Drains over Counterspell.  With that you might even power into some wins without Oathing.  Maybe.  Periodically.

Burning Wish seems not that good.  It forces you into four colors when you could easily go three, and your wishboard looks weak except maybe for Massacre, which is a double-edged sword that protects you from Fish and keeps you from Oathing.

I still think you want only one Eternal Witness.  You want as much of your library in your graveyard as possible after you Oath.  So you Oath up Witness and grab either Will to win now or Time Walk to set up for the win next turn when you Krosan Reclaim Yawgmoth's Will.

Maybe maindeck the Gifts or Intuition in the Wish and Witness's spots?  You can stock your graveyard for emergency Oaths.  An Intuition of Regrowth, Will, and Walk seems pretty good.

Also, why Skullclamp and EE?  Seems like there should be a better way to give a Meddling Mage the axe.

[Seraphim3577]

thanks for the comments, i actually had planned on making the changes from counterspell to drain when i returned to read your posts

as far as the clamp is concerned, it probably is getting the axe, too
I plan on dropping the clamp and maybe one other card and maindecking 2 gifts.

The reason for the burning wish is to make 1 extract useless against the deck.

If you extract meandeck gifts you neuter their deck.  The same goes for alot of other decks, including angel and tyrant oath.  I don't want that to be an issue with this version.  That is also the reason why I won't drop the witnesses below 2.

The reason for the Engineered Explosives is challice of the void (stax), control slaver (for 1), and fish (2 or 3).  For 0, it can also keep my orchard tokens from doing too much damage as well as do some severe damage to mana development for decks running heavy arti-source (mean-deck).

Thanks for the input, though.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Fair enough.  If Extract is big in your area, you've got to defend against it.  I've never had it played against me or seen it played, even, so it's not something I'd be concerned with in my metagame.

Why not use Research & Development then?  It's on color for you and it'll even protect you from Jester's Cap.

[Seraphim3577]

I realize that burning wish is "off" color if you draw it early, but the point of it is to use it after casting yawgmoth's will so that you can bring your mox ruby and / or a red producer to play to cast it.  If a player goes to extract this deck, it is likely that they will take either the tendrills, will, or burning wish. Any one of these creates a problem for them.  If you take the will or tendrills, i can wish for it.  If you take the wish, i still have my tendrills and will.  The best play would be to take the will and then force me to cast the burning wish.  This really isn't a problem most of the time considering that I am using forbidden orchard to start the oath chain (thus having a red mana source).

Its not that extract is that big in my area, its just that a common defense to many of the combo decks is either jesters cap or extract.  I really don't want this deck to fall victim to the hate that most people will be running for other decks.

[AmbivalentDuck]

If you decide to go with the Burning Wish, at least sideboard Balance.  Unlike Massacre, Balance can kill off a DSC in a pinch or effectively Mind Twist an opponent.

Since Oath can also lose to its own Spirit tokens, it's worth noting that Burning Wish->Balance costs a lot less than Burning Wish->Massacre against most of the decks in this format as few run Plains or Tundra other than Fish.

[brianpk80]

Well noted BPK.

I appreciate the comments from both you and duck on this topic (even if they get a little heated at times). 

For all of the answers mentioned by bpk for oath, the only one that would stop the oath engine i am running is meddling mage.  Gilded drake on an eternal witness is almost silly, especially when I am still recurring timewalk and getting another witness out of the deck.Stern Proctor can be a problem when coupled with meddling mage, but as you can see in my list, I am maindecking 2 copies of EE. 

Seraphim,  

Nice list.  You are absolutely right that Gilded Drake is largely useless against your set-up.  I should have clarified that I was discussing their role against Oath in general or on the contingency that you include a Tidespout Tyrant.  He's almost a staple in combo-Oath builds these days, and I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to give him a try.  If you just don't like him for personal reasons, well, that's reason enough.  (Show and Tell does make a great Burning Wish target with Tyrant.  Kudos to Insomniac/Ctrl-Freak for that idea who was the first I know of to run it sideboard with Wish over maindeck).  You'll also want Life from the Loam in the sideboard both to board in for the Oath mirror and as a Wish target.      

Secondly, if you go with this list, Meddling Mage is going to be a secondary concern to graveyard hate and artifact lock pieces: Null Rod in particular.  You can't get rid of Rod with Engineered Explosives and at any rate, killing a Mage isn't going to be the best avenue of addressing him.  I think bounce is what you're looking for here.  Chain of Vapor is good to build storm and bounce problematic permanents.  Echoing Truth is strong in an Oath build because, especially v. Fish, Oath finds itself getting beat down by Spirit tokens a little more often than it would like.  Rushing River is standard in aggro-Oath but I'm not sure it's optimal.

Third, your build is heavy on win conditions and disruption but a little light on draw/search, especially for Oath.  I would suggest cutting 2 Misdirection, 2 Engineered Explosives, 1 Hurkyl's Recall, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Duress, and 1 Tendrils of Agony for 2 Merchant Scroll, 2 Intuition, 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Regrowth, and 1 Tidespout Tyrant.  I'd also consider whether the usual dead weight of Krosan Reclamation is actually justified by the few times where it's critical to the win.  There may be another alternative to address those situations while still being useful in a general sense.  Research/Development may be viable here.

A few notes: Intuition is a fantastic versatile tutor in any Oath build, but especially one that wants to fill its graveyard with goodies.  You can Intuition post-Oath to make sure the Witness has targets if you're worried about random things like Oathing and seeing "Polluted Delta, Mox, Mox, Eternal Witness..."  Regrowth is decent Recoup substitute for a deck running so much green.  It makes very sinister Gifts and Intuition piles as well.  Merchant Scroll for Ancestral gives you a threatening turn one play absent Orchard/Mox Oath.  I've seen it used very effectively in combo-Oath builds and can vouch for its strength.  Plus, it accesses your bounce suite and instant EoT blue tutor engines.  

Ah lastly, before I forget, 4 Polluted Delta -> 2 Polluted Delta and 2 Flooded Strand.  The only times it will matter will be when you're Gifting for land (v. Stax for instance) or to avoid getting 4-for-1'ed by a Pithing Needle on your fetchland.  You also may want to work in an Island and/or a Snow-covered Island (for Gifts Ungiven) because the mana base is really begging to be Wasted, and you're in a Fish meta. 

Good luck with your build; it is shaping up nicely.  

-BPK

[Seraphim3577]

I had the chance this weekend to play with my deck (the most updated version) vs Ichorrid for a little while.  That deck is broken, btw.  Uncounterable kills on turn 3 on the play is gross.  I managed to win all of the best out of 3's against it despite not having anything in my sideboard except pithing needles for bazaar.  My clock just appeared faster than theirs.  I only passed the turn more than once with an oath in play, but that was due to my opponent darkblasting the spirit tokens to prevent the oath trigger from resolving.  I won those games anyway because i just tutored for a 2nd orchard and gave him more tokens than he could deal with.

Overall...

games preboard:  5-2
games post-board: 5-3

He managed to get broken bazaar draws in all of his wins.  When there is nothing for me to counter and he is on the play, I lose unless I get a turn 1 oath + orchard.  Only 2 of the games ended due to one person getting mana screwed, one in my favor pre-board, one in his post.

Thoughts, questions, comments?

[President Skroob]

I'm somewhat surprised you did so well assuming you were up against a standard Ichorid build. Your build both has strengths and weaknesses against it compared to the standard Oath build.

Note that I'm basing the following info on what Ichorid can run, and does run for some people, not necessarily on what you did play against unless you post the list.

Ichorid can run Chain of Vapor, which is something of an ace against standard Oath (though it's certainly vulnerable to countermagic) but which doesn't really do a thing against your Oath deck. It's almost dead against your variant.

Ichorid CAN possibly race standard Oath even after it starts getting out the hot chix, but it's difficult. Your build gives the definite possibility of winning the turn you Oath, which Ichorid won't stop.

As an addendum to the above, your build is strong against proactive disruption, which is mostly the only disruption that Ichorid packs. Besides Unmask and Cabal Therapy for Oath, they're not going to be pulling much of your strictly business stuff and will have to resort to your enablers.

The big issue I see, though, and Ichorid's ace in the hole against your variant that it doesn't have quite as much against the standard Oath, is Leyline of the Void. Leyline will pretty much annihilate your variant. It's uncounterable, and unless I'm missing something you have no answer to it apart from Engineered Explosives for A LOT. Your Eternal Witness will pop, but have nothing to pull from. Normal Oath will at least still get its girls, even if they remove half their deck from the game in the process.


Based on the above, I am very surprised you didn't fold to Leyline of the Void a couple of times. Sure, you could still win after it, but you'll be scraping along and doing things your deck is completely not built to do to win.

Those are my thoughts, as an Ichorid player.

Note: Now that I've collected my thoughts, no, not even Engineered Explosives will handle Leyline here if I recall correctly. Curse me being at work and not able to look at the card...

[Seraphim3577]

explosives set to 4 will kill the leyline.
My options when presented with a leyline that starts in play are to burning wish for enchant destruction (currently hull breach) or to EE for 4 (which will kill all 4cc permanents).  I won't activate the oath if I don't want to (it says may) if there is a leyline in play that I am worried about (same goes for tormod's crypt).  For crypt, at least i'm presented the chance to counter.

Thanks for comments.

edit:
I haven't seen an up-to-date ichorrid list for type 1, but his deck included at least 1 psychatog, 4 bazaar, 4 ichorrid, at least 1 wonder, the black creature that can reanimate itself for B if there are 3 creatures above it in the graveyard, tolarian winds, 1 golgari thug, 4 stinkweed imp, and dark blast.  He had power in the deck, too (saw moxes and recall...I love misdirection sometimes).  He hit with therapy a couple times, but his attempts didn't work out that well because i usually had an oath in play before he got to therapy.

[President Skroob]

Maybe I just don't remember how Engineered Explosives works. Wouldn't be the first time I was just flat out wrong.

Hull Breach would certainly would do it, though going through the motions of grabbing it using Burning Wish is going to give Ichorid the time it needs to set up and smash face. Not sure there is much that can be done about that, though. Ichorid plays it to buy time, because that's what it wants.

It sounds like he was playing a pretty traditional Ichorid with a bit of jankiness. I'm surprised to see Psychatog sneaking in there, though people have thrown around the idea of including him. He's pretty rough to ramp up the mana for, though I'd certainly imagine he's a bomb if he makes it into play. Wonder is also fairly uncommon unless the Ichorid player is expecting lots of aggro.

Beats me. Ichorid can have a surprising amount of variety despite how tight the deck is.


And yeah, the proactive disruption with Cabal Therapy isn't going to do much against you. Unless he is on the play and chooses to make the defensive move to Therapy for Oath instead of the offensive move to drop Bazaar or Putrid Imp, the Therapies aren't going to be turning the tide of the fight in his favor.

It sounds like you may have changed the deck a bit since your last deck list update. I don't see Hull Breach on there. Anything else significantly different? Also, on a side note, since I brought it up in talking about Leyline and am curious, CAN your deck go the distance and ramp up 10 storm count without abusing the graveyard? It seems like it might be able to if you set up your hand using a Gifts, but I'm curious as to whether you've tried.

Edit: Engineered Explosives IS what I remembered, I just didn't see your deck accumulating four different colors of mana with which to play it in order to blow Leyline of the Void. I see, upon looking at your list again, that that IS possible, though I think it might not be easy.

[scutakicker]

As soon as I saw the title of this I new exactly what the list was because I played against the guy who ran this at worlds. Its cute, but its not good. I was playing SS without any sideboard slots against Oath and I took Game 1 from him because he got a turn 1 oath and could only Oath up a 2/1. I find a Darkblast and bounce the Oath. His force in hand (which would have saved an angel from bounce) does nothing. Game 2 he gets ahead early and should win easily. Unfortunately for him he takes *forever* to win this game and we go to time and thus draw. Had we gone to game three (and if he just put in angels) he would have had a great shot at taking the match.

[Seraphim3577]

Well, i've tested with this deck enough to know what I need to go off and have actually practiced the motions of doing it enough to warrant taking it to a tournament.  Not saying which one because I don't want people knowing what i'm playing ahead of time, but it will be soon and i will leave a full tournament report on this thread when I get back.

I do need some help with my sb.  I don't like a lot of it right now.

I'm thinking I have the following for sure, but there are some questions still:
3 massacre
1 melt down
1 hull breach
3 pithing needle
1 rebuild
3 stp
3 ??? (2 SSS is likely and 1 ?)

I definitely would like some input here so that I can get the cards for it.

Thanks for everyones help and input thus far.

[AmbivalentDuck]

At least one "normal" Oath creature in your sideboard.  I strongly recommend Simic Sky Swallower or Tidespout Tyrant so that you have some resilience to bounce and StP.  (Tidespout can just bounce your opponent's board in response to virtually any spell...pretty useful, no?)

Tinker -> Sundering Titan is also strong.  If you expect a lot of Fish, I'd run the Tinker->Titan maindeck as it's good against pretty much everything that runs non-rainbow land.  The CIP ability also evens out the tempo loss of sacking a Mox to Tinker.

Do not expect Massacre to be that useful.  It's only good against bad players, only when they fetch stupidly AND overcommit.  If you fear Fish that much, Red Elemental Blast is a solid answer to both Waterfront Bouncer and Meddling Mage.  If you're worried about Jotun Grunt, maybe you should change your game plan.  REB is also amazing against anything that's not Stax or Goblins.

Those StPs are Extracts.  Against most decks you fear VERY few cards, and Extract sometimes just says U, Sorcery, You win.  It's also godlike in the mirror.

Meltdown?  Against what?  The Moxen that you also run?  Take a look at Woodripper and Seeds of Innocence.  Personally, I'd take Rebuild and Hurkyl's Recall over either since it's easier to get and keep blue (basic lands) in play.

Hull Breach is a poor choice because their are so few enchantments in the format that aren't Oath.  You don't care if your opponent resolves Oath, you care how many Orchards are on each side of the table.  Hull Breach is also a sorcery...which is bad if you want to use it against Stax.  Oxidize is almost certainly the best because it can hit Chalice for 1.  (Edit: It hits chalice for 2, costing 1 to do so.)

[Seraphim3577]

Seeds of Innocence sounds great.  I need to test it a little before i'm sold, though.

I really like hull breach. It is amazing against ichorid, usually hitting moxes and their leyline.  I HAVE to hit their leylines or I just lose.

Meltdown is pretty good vs stax.  It hits null rods, challices, and trinispheres.  Getting to 5 mana is kind of hard, but 4 is usually doable.

Meltdown is also good against meandeck gifts.  If I can kill all of their 0 cost artis, they are in serious trouble...it then comes down to a counterward for yawg will. I've usually won by then, too.

[AmbivalentDuck]

You're running Oath.  You *should* have solid tutoring, easily able to grab Chain of Vapor in a pinch.  Against Ichorid, bouncing a Leyline should be equivalent to RFGing it as they should never EVER get 4 mana without Lotus.

If you think Ichorid will be a common matchup, you might want to look into the 5WW 4/4 cleric that gives you life equal to the number of cards in your graveyard.  3-4 extra turns against Ichorid is equivalent to 3-4 Time Walks.  Or you could even run your own Leylines or Tormod's Crypt.

Oh, and Children of Korlis is also solid against Combo, it seems weird to Oath up a 1/1 but he's also equivalent to a Time Walk.  Being able to hardcast him is a pretty bonus.

What do you think your metagame will actually look like?

[BoOBaZ]

Here is my personnal way to use Witness in a Oath Deck

NAME: Da Beauty, Da beast an eternal love story

// Lands
    1  City of Brass
    2  Flooded Strand
    4  Forbidden Orchard
    2  Island
    3  Polluted Delta
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Tropical Island
    1  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    1  Darksteel Colossus
    1  Eternal Witness

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Cabal Therapy
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Fact or Fiction
    4  Force of Will
    2  Gifts Ungiven
    4  Mana Drain
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Rebuild
    1  Time Walk
    1  Tinker
    1  Krosan Reclamation
    4  Oath of Druids
    1  Regrowth
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Chain of Vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 2  Duress
SB: 2  Sacred Ground
SB: 1  Tundra
SB: 1  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Darkblast
SB: 2  Goblin Bombardment
SB: 2  Massacre
SB: 3  Shred Memory

Many way to win :

Oath Witness first taking Y'will in a big Graveyard => Tendrils
Oath Colossus first, Witness second taking Time walk from GY for the double swing
Tinker Colossus ... hm ... Easy one ok : )
Etc ...

Many tricks in this build, the Cabal therapy is here to recycle the Witness with Krosan if the Witness is revealed too early.
The Tendrils is MD simply 'cause B.Wish sux.
Witness is sweet in this build also because it's a Regrowth that only cost one extra G mana but beats for 2.
I remember myself doing Gift setup with Regrowth and/or Witness in it + 'Tral/T.Walk or Force/Dain etc ... . Always funny ; D
The only really bad match-up being Combo, I stopped playing it for the moment. The only "good" Oath variant against Combo being the Null Rod + Chalice version.

Have fun

BoOBaZ

[nicofromtokyo]

It seems this deck and this thread has gone far far away from its original title (Eternal Oath...). Maybe time to create a new thread or recentrate the debate on what it was supposed to be? (kill by a infinite recursion of Time Walk through Oath and Witness).

FYI, here's the list of the original japanses Eternal Oath (this list is dated from more than one year)

Y2C（2000年チキン問題）
デッキデザイナー＆使用者：Chickenatog 

　MainBoard 
4 Eternal Witness

4 Oath of Druids
2 Gaea's Blessing
3 Living Wish

2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Fastbond
1 Zuran Orb
1 Skullclamp
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Time Twister

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
 
Land
3 Forbidden Orchard
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland


Sideboard 
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Strip Mine
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Rath's Edge
1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Trinket Mage
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Academy Rector
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Withered Wretch
1 Dark Confidant
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Energy Flux
 

I won't pretend to be able to explain all the card choices, cause I'm not the creator of that list, but this thread was suppoed to be started on that concept, and now I see ToA kills, that seems to be pretty far, enough to be noticed.

[Seraphim3577]

Took 3rd place at Pastimes yesterday in their 10-proxy tourny for a Beta Mox Jet.  Not too shabby for not only my deck's debut but my own as well in type 1.

I'll post a full tournament report tonight when I get off work.  It will be very juicy and I'll probably do a series of posts going down a match by match basis of what i boarded, how openings went and whatever details I come up with.