[TMC Open]The Mana Clash Open(Vintage and Legacy Clash)November 4, Stratford, CT

[iamfishman]

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From the lunatic who brings you The Mana Drain Open(Waterbury) and The Mana Leak Open(Stratford) comes the meeting of these two giants:

THE MANA CLASH OPEN 1(Midnight Edition)

When: Saturday/Sunday, November 4, 2006

Time: Satuday Night at 5:00 PM running non-stop until around 9:00 am Sunday morning.

AND THEN WHAT?: Well, then we all imvade Hometown Buffet for the largest Magic The Gathering Brunch in recorded history!

Where: Gamingetc Tournament Center and SuperStore
555 Lordship Boulevard (Exit 30 off I95)
Stratford CT 06615
1-800-380-1115 or 203-849-0186
Lodgings: If any are interested in Lodgings, please mention it in a reply to this thread.  I may be able to establish a special room rate at the nearby Ramada Inn

Dopeness Factor: The limit as x approaches the value arrived at by solving the following riddle from the right of 1/x.  Riddle: Two buildings are connected by a 40 foot wire of uniform weight per inch.  The wire is attached the buildings at the same height above ground level.  The wire hangs between the two buildings and is called a catenary.  If the wire, at its lowest point is 20 feet below the position of attachment to the building, how far apart are the buildings.
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EVENT 1: TYPE 1 MANA CLASH TOURNAMENT
Registration: 5:00 PM - 6:00 PM Saturday Night
Tourney Starts PROMPTLY at 6:00 PM(To avoid a prolonged tournament, this will be strictly enforced.  Latecomers will be subject to a round 1 loss.)

Cost: $20 Entry Fee

Format: Vintage

Proxies: 10 Porxies + $1 per proxy(15 proxies maximum)

Prizes/Tournament Structure: I have a unique idea for prize support/tournament structure that I hope to try out.  Let me Tarrentino it for you and go backwards. I’ll give you all the reasons for why I think things should be run this way, then I will tell you how I think the event should be run, and finally, I would like you to go back to the reasons and see if they match appropriately.
1.)   Because this is my first time doing this, I have no rough estimate for attendance.
2.)   Top 8s/16s take FOREVER.
3.)   Sometimes some may have a perfect record after swiss, and than get hosed two games of the top 8, and end up with a draft set.
4.)   Tiebreakers shouldn’t matter.
5.)   Final rounds of a tournament, where the top 8 going into the last round all realize they could draw one another in wastes an hour of everyone’s time.
6.)   Players can know exactly what they have the potential to win.
7.)   Teammates scooping to others gives an unfair advantage to some, making magic into a popularity contest.
8.)   Long events suck.
9.)   Insert other random reason I am forgetting here.

The tournament, regardless of how many players we have, will be run with 5 rounds of swiss.  After the 5 rounds, prizes will be awarded based on standings after 5 rounds.  This is what I have so far, tell me if it seems reasonable(keep in mind that the highest prizes are not on par with the highest prizes of Waterbury because more people will be receiving them(as opposed to one person in 175 winning a Lotus).  Also, I welcome ideas for things I can use as choice for prizes.

Record      Prize Choices:
5-0      Choice of: LOA/TIMETWISTER/$125/60 Packs   
4-0-1      Choice of: 4 Force of Wills/$65/Booster box   
4-1      Choice of: 2 Dual Lands/25 boosters/$40
3-0-2      Choice of: Any Dual Land/12 boosters/$25
3-1-1      Choice of: Any Dual Land/10 boosters/$20
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EVENT 2: LEGACY MANA CLASH TOURNAMENT
Registration: 11:00 PM - 12:00 AM Saturday Night
Tourney Starts PROMPTLY at 12:00 AM-Midnight Sunday Morning(To avoid a prolonged tournament, this will be strictly enforced.  Latecomers will be subject to a round 1 loss.)

Cost: $20 Entry Fee

Format: Legacy

Proxies: No proxies Allowed

Prizes/Tournament Structure: * See above for numbered reasons for doing this.

The tournament, regardless of how many players we have, will be run with 5 rounds of swiss.  After the 5 rounds, prizes will be awarded based on standings after 5 rounds.  This is what I have so far, tell me if it seems reasonable(keep in mind that the highest prizes are not on par with the highest prizes of Waterbury because more people will be receiving them(as opposed to one person in 175 winning a Lotus).  Also, I welcome ideas for things I can use as choice for prizes.

Record      Prize Choices:
5-0      Choice of: 4 Sea Drake/LOA/TIMETWISTER/$125/60 Packs   
4-0-1      Choice of: 4 Force of Wills/$65/Booster box   
4-1      Choice of: 2 Dual Lands/2 Pithing Needle/25 boosters/$40
3-0-2      Choice of: 1 Reset/Any Dual Land/1 Pithing Needle/12 boosters/$25
3-1-1      Choice of: Any Dual Land/1 Pithing Needle/10 boosters/$20
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{{EDIT}}At the end of the night, the records of players for both events will be calculated to determine a combined match point total between the two events. The top 8 players based on total match points will play in a bracketed top 8. The prizes will include bragging rights as well as additional prize support, and the “Champion of the night trophy" for the winner.{{EDIT}}

Other events: More info to come

Magic Trivia
Magic Scattegories
Type 4 Tournament
Video Games(Free use all night)
Team Competition
And possibly more

[Moxlotus]

What format would the 2-headed giant be?  Or would it be MIXED Vintage and Legacy?!?!?!

[Myriad Games]

Wow! This should be an epic event. I like the format and prize structure. I'm not sure how much the overnight tournaments will affect attendance, but it should be a rigorous contest.

[The Atog Lord]

Thinking that I will be in Indiana for this makes me want to cry.
Ray, Type One is very luck that you're you.

[Scoops666]

Wow. This blows I actually have to miss one of Rays events. Seriously. Blows.

[iamfishman]

What format would the 2-headed giant be?  Or would it be MIXED Vintage and Legacy?!?!?!

It will be mixed Vintage and Legacy...all players bring the deck that they top 2ed with.

My one concern is if someone top 2's both events...not sure what we will do in this situation.  Perhaps we will just give the title to that person instead of having the 2HG Event.

Ray

[iamfishman]

Wow. This blows I actually have to miss one of Rays events. Seriously. Blows.

This makes me sad.  Derek is like the best Judge/tourney worker guy(I'm not good with words) that a TO could possibly ask for.

Your presence will be missed indeed, Derek.

[nataz]

I have no idea what the venue is like, but would there be anyway to set up wireless internet? If I'm going to be somewhere where I have to stay up all night, mize as well be able to connect to party poker. Good times for those that have a DS also.

This sounds like it could be really fun, but having to drive home sunday could be a bitch. We'll see.

[iamfishman]

With as many people as I think your going to get maybe you should make the legacy event 6 rounds.

I know your way saves time, and allows for alot less rounds which is nice, but I know alot of people who like alot of rounds, b/c playing magic is just awsome regardless of where you stand in a tournement record wise.

Actually, for those who like alot of rounds, they can actually play 10 rounds(5 of legacy and 5 of vintage) which is 3 more than were at The Mana Leak Open or 2 more than at a Day 1 Waterbury.

I might like having a top 8 better, because even though it can possibly hurt the player who goes undefeated in swiss... At the same time your idea hurts the guy who gets unlucky that 1 round he gets paired up vs goblins etc. and then wins out the rest of the way. But your scenario kinda favors who wins/loses when. IDK. Just saying that If I am going to be playing at an overnight magic event, and I am stuck there... I would want to play as much magic as possible.

Kyle

Actually, my method HELPS the person who loses round 1, since this person can win the same prize for going 4-1 as someone who wins 4 and loses the last round.

Because of the starting times it is concievable to complete in both tournements right?

If so, we should totally have a prize for "OVERALL CHAMPION"  Highest points at the end of the night combined over both tournements.  It doesn't even have to be a Money Prize, just like a trophy ... OR A BELT! 
EDIT: And the right to walk into the next Mana Clash, with the belt over your shoulder, with theme music. So much potential.

Ya know, no offence to the tournement structure, I actually really like it... but come on... it wouldn't be a tournement without someone being the "winner."

Good idea...I'm going to change what I said about the 1st and opposite event 2nd seed teaming and playing.

Here is a really good idea.  After both events, I will calculate the top 8 players based on both events.  Conceivably someone could have 30 match points at the end of the 2 events and be the first seed.  These 8 will play a top 8 for extra prizes, a trophy, and bragging rights.

ALSO...the Legacy tournament will be UNSANCTIONED...not because I feel it should be, but because I simply have not yet put in place the neccesary work to have it sanctioned.

[Scoops666]

As for the format of that "Top 8 of the night" I suggest draft. Heres why:

1) It spreads it into a 3rd format, which tests much more skioll than just 1 format does.
2) Peopel may not have decks for both formats
3) Related to point #2- It would be WAY unfair to have Legacy decks face off against Vintage. And depending on matchup, vice versa.
4) A draft is a much lower key event than a constructed Top 8, which I think that an event like this(which is 100% designed for fun) almost requires.

I can probably acquire some Time Spiral packs for you if you wanted to do this Ray.

[iamfishman]

Some important replies, updates, and changes:

Because of the starting times it is concievable to complete in both tournements right?

Yes, I will be running very tight rounds and adhereing to the start time of Vintage so that everyone can play in both events.

Ya know, no offence to the tournement structure, I actually really like it... but come on... it wouldn't be a tournement without someone being the "winner."

This is very true, hence my next point.

First place is going to be an endurance test.  Like the f-in' Ironman of magic.

14 rounds ... over 18 hours of magic ... and will need to go almost undefeated.  @_@

Top 8 will be vintage presumably? 

Actually, it will be 10 rounds prior to the top 8 to determine the Eternal Champion of the night.  And when you hear how you place in that top 8, you will see that you certainly don't need to go undefeated(though it won't hurt.)

This is probably going to be the greatest thing ever. Sadly this is probably going to force me to commit to building a legacy deck and buying resets x_x;;;

Here's to trying something new and being open to fun ideas.

Top 8 should obv. be a Beta booster draft.

I agree, unfortunately I don't have a Beta Set.

What I do have are a Revised Set, and Antiquities Set, and an Arabian Nights Set. 

The top 8 will be a Revised, Arabian Nights, Antiquities Rotessiere Draft.  All 500+ cards from these sets will be laid out on a table, and players will take turns choosing one card.  When all the cards have been selected players will make a 40 card limited deck adding any number of basic lands of their choosing.  This will be the format for the top 8.  Truly an Eternal Event.  The top 8 will be using my sets for the draft, but they WONT get to keep the cards, the prizes will consist of other things.

How do I make it into this top 8 of the night?

Simple.  At the end of BOTH tournaments, the total number of match points in both events for each player will be calculated.  The top 8 players according to these totals will be placed into the top 8 for additional prizes and the prize of the title "Eternal Champ of the Night."

What are these extra prizes?

Good question.  I'm not sure yet.  The winner will at least get a trophy.  Since I have no idea of attendance I may have to base this added prize support on number of total entrants.

What about the Brunch, Magic Scattegories, Magic Trivia, etc?

I'm going to try this.  Have Magic Scattegories and Magic Trivia while the top 8 are drafting and playing.  This could happen right after a Brunch (which would be awesome if we can arrange to have tons of yummy food delivered there.)  I will be looking into this.

The only thing that concerns me is the start time for legacy. I know I'd drop dead playing that late, never mind starting that late! I understand you want both groups to be able to play, and it does sound like a great idea and a lot of fun, I just think you'll lose a lot of people to sleep deprivation and have a lot of play mistakes for us old fogeys.

Somethings that I really want people to understand are:
1.) This is not replacing TMD Open or TML Open.
2.) This is something FUN(lets not forget this reason for playing magic) that I thought of when I think of parties I have gone to with fellow magic players.  Granted, their will be no drinking, but all the comrodary and fun of a night of hanging out with buds and playing magic sounds like something I really was psyched about organizing.
3.) If you are not coming, that is okay with me.  I don't expect this to be the size of a Waterbury.  That said, there will be alot of people having alot of fun, and if you want to be part of this, don't miss out.  Start planning now.
4.) If people came down for the one day Legacy Event, what is wrong with a one night event.  Simply adjust your sleep schedule for that day.  Drive Friday night, Sleep Satruday Day, and you will be right as rain for playing.

I'm just going to reiterate my concerns about an all-night event that is 6 hours away from where I live.

I don't see any benefit to running this all night (instead of all day, or over two days), unless me and whoever I might take with me not being there is a benefit.

Again, this tournament, because of its overnight structure, is much more condusive to local(New England, New York, New Jersey) players.  I realize this.  This is NOT to say that I don't want others to come up for the event, just that I don't know what to tell you about being upset about the difficulty of attending if you have a 12 hour drive.

I don't care if the event is sanctioned or not. It's all about playing in a cool tournament.

QFT...however...

Also, sanctioning=good, why would you want it unsanctioned? That's the only thing I don't understand. Even if you don't use your eternal rating, then you shouldn't care about it. For me, it's a good way to remember past tourneys as well and check to see who the people I played against are...

As I have said, I simply have not really had the time to look into sanctioning.  Its not as though I am against it.  However again...

In regards to that. If ray cannot sanction the tournament. Dragon's lair in West Springfield will sponsor the sanctioning of the legacy event.

All I am waiting for is a response from Ray himself.

Bill

Bill, call me. 860-618-3412.  Let's talk about this possibility.

I'm not sure how I feel about the way you're running the prize support, Ray. let me think on it a bit and I'll get back to you.

You never got back to me with your opinions

Ray - I know GamingEtc. has a no outside drink policy. Is coffee going to be provided? God knows we'll need it.

Good question...I'll see if they will make an exception for this.  God knows, people will need it.

Is their a deal for playing in Both?

There is not.  This is simply because my prize support is based proportionally on the number of players.

This tourney sounds fun as hell. I don't see anything wrong with it. Jager bombs seem necessary for this type of event though!
AoD

Sorry, as was said, alcohol will be strictly prohibitted and anyone drinking on premises will be asked to leave.  I hate to be the party pooper, but there will be minors and so I would have no tolerance for such a situation.

[Dxfiler]

I will probably go to this no matter what, but I have some concerns about the tourney, and they all relate to your proposed top 8 draft scenario.

First of all, I love the idea of a top 8 eternal draft.  It makes me want to go and provides incentive to really work hard on both formats.  With that said, people should be guaranteed to be able to play in both formats, because that seems like the only real way of making top 8.  My concern lies with the fact that rounds can go long, especially with the type one being first.  With the tourney schedule set up as is, it is very conceivable that people who play the final round of the vintage tourney miss the chance to play in legacy because of rounds going long.  Even with strict enforcement of 50-60 minute rounds, there's going to be overlap every single round of at least ten minutes, and that's being generous.

I'll go over the 'dream scenario': If the rounds are 50 minutes (shortest realistic round time), and there's ten minutes of overlap all five rounds, then the tourney will end around 11:00.  This is assuming it starts exactly at 6:00, the rounds go exactly 50 minutes and everyone realizes time is called, causing overlap past time only to be 10 minutes per round.  Assuming that all happens, every round starts at exactly top of the hour.   

If all of the above happens, the tourney would end roughly around 11:00 and everyone would have about an hour to get ready for legacy. 

As good as your tourneys are Ray, there's no way the dream scenario I just posted will happen.  If just one of the above things is off, the vintage tourney ends later than 11:00.  It's about 99% likely that the rounds have more than 10 minute overlap in between each one.  Vintage players take a long ass time, and often players don't realize or intentionally ignore when time is called for a round.  Even with strict enforcement, which im sure you'll have, at least two rounds go about 20 minutes over.  Given this likely scenario, the rounds will not start top of the hour.  Then of course you have the inevitable judge calls/deck checks.  These will both happen multiple times, causing extra time to be given when appropriate.  Further delay will be caused by standings going up for what I assume will be the final two rounds of the tourney.  I have no doubt you will put up standings for at least the final round, as you should, but that will also push the vintage tourney further back.     

In other words, there's no way in hell the vintage tourney ends at 11:00.  I predict it will end in the 11:30-12:30 ballpark, the wide margin coming into play because it depends how frequently any and all of my above examples of tournament lengthers happen.  If the vintage tourney ends after 11:30, it's very unlikely you'll get the crossover you're looking for in both tourneys.  Once you're after that mark, players have little to no time to figure out their legacy deck, get cards, make list, etc.  I know that many of them could do this before showing up to the site, as opposed to in between tourneys, but we both know many players will do the last minute 'find a deck routine'. 

Then of course we have the nightmare scenario: the vintage tourney goes past twelve from any number of extenuating circumstances, and you lose players who would have definitely played in the other tourney.  Probably in the dozens.  The worst part of all is that many of these players would have no control over not being able to play at midnight, and were simply subject to one of the very common tourney lengtheners I listed above.  My guess is the biggest problem would be a couple slow people extending the rounds significantly after time is called, hence causing masses of normal speed players to miss the legacy tourney.

Anyway, the nightmare scenario is one that nobody wants.  It's bad for the players, it's bad for the store, and it's bad for you as the tourney organizer.  My suggestion is to either push the legacy tourney back by half an hour - an hour, start the vintage tourney 1-2 hours earlier, or just make a guarantee that anyone who plays all five rounds of the vintage WILL be able to play in the legacy tourney, regardless of extenuating circumstances that can and will occur.

If you can guarantee people will be able to play in both tourneys, there's no doubt you'll get a rise in attendance.  Especially with the added incentive of top 8 draft.  Again, the concept is great, but if players don't have the opportunity to play in both tourneys, there's no way in hell they have a shot at it.

Which brings me to one final concern, albeit minor: what kind of prizes are we talking for top 8?  I understand you're doing the draft mainly for fun/bragging rights for the players, and I respect that IMMENSELY, but it'd be cool if there were some significant prizes to go along with top 8.  With the top 8 draft, you're asking players (although its only 8) to play another tourney, which could go anywhere from two to six hours additionally for each person.  I'm guessing minimum two because of the setup for the draft, the actual draft, and then the first round of top 8.  Also, the players don't keep the cards, since they do belong to you.  That raises another concern: I hope you do decklists, because otherwise you're going to have the remote possibility of one or more players in top 8 ganking your cards.  The community is great and all, but there's always a couple shady ones, and you never know if one or two slip into top 8.

So, that's all my concerns in a nutshell.  :p  Again, I'm probably going regardless, because I <3 your tourneys, but I hope that some or all of what I brought up could be addressed by you, because I really want to see this event do well.

- Dave Feinstein

[iamfishman]

I will probably go to this no matter what, but I have some concerns about the tourney, and they all relate to your proposed top 8 draft scenario.

First of all, I love the idea of a top 8 eternal draft.  It makes me want to go and provides incentive to really work hard on both formats.  With that said, people should be guaranteed to be able to play in both formats, because that seems like the only real way of making top 8.  My concern lies with the fact that rounds can go long, especially with the type one being first.  With the tourney schedule set up as is, it is very conceivable that people who play the final round of the vintage tourney miss the chance to play in legacy because of rounds going long.  Even with strict enforcement of 50-60 minute rounds, there's going to be overlap every single round of at least ten minutes, and that's being generous.

...(edited for space)

Anyway, the nightmare scenario is one that nobody wants.  It's bad for the players, it's bad for the store, and it's bad for you as the tourney organizer.  My suggestion is to either push the legacy tourney back by half an hour - an hour, start the vintage tourney 1-2 hours earlier, or just make a guarantee that anyone who plays all five rounds of the vintage WILL be able to play in the legacy tourney, regardless of extenuating circumstances that can and will occur.

If you can guarantee people will be able to play in both tourneys, there's no doubt you'll get a rise in attendance.  Especially with the added incentive of top 8 draft.  Again, the concept is great, but if players don't have the opportunity to play in both tourneys, there's no way in hell they have a shot at it.

Which brings me to one final concern, albeit minor: what kind of prizes are we talking for top 8?  I understand you're doing the draft mainly for fun/bragging rights for the players, and I respect that IMMENSELY, but it'd be cool if there were some significant prizes to go along with top 8.  With the top 8 draft, you're asking players (although its only 8) to play another tourney, which could go anywhere from two to six hours additionally for each person.  I'm guessing minimum two because of the setup for the draft, the actual draft, and then the first round of top 8.  Also, the players don't keep the cards, since they do belong to you.  That raises another concern: I hope you do decklists, because otherwise you're going to have the remote possibility of one or more players in top 8 ganking your cards.  The community is great and all, but there's always a couple shady ones, and you never know if one or two slip into top 8.

So, that's all my concerns in a nutshell.  :p  Again, I'm probably going regardless, because I <3 your tourneys, but I hope that some or all of what I brought up could be addressed by you, because I really want to see this event do well.

- Dave Feinstein

Dave,

Your concerns are very valid, and those things you said had already crossed my mind.  I realize I didn't make the first definitively clear though.

1.) Players who play in all 5 rounds of the Vintage event will be guaranteed AT LEAST 30 minutes(but much more if it is available) before it starts to prepare to play in the Legacy event.  This I promise.

2.) On top of all other prizes given(keep in mind that those who top 8ed probabbly earned mega prizes through the other events), I'll probabbly throw in AT LEAST a mana drain for first(more based on attendance), and some blue duals for 2-4, and packs for 5-8.  Please note that those people making top 8 already have likely won about 200 or so worth of prizes from their high performances in one or both events.  I never like to have the prize support be TOO top heavy, and so I am looking to really get a large game of Magic Trivia and Scattegories going with tons of prizes, to try to "spread the wealth around".

3.) As it looks right now, I will have a setup so everyone can watch the top 8 draft and eat breakfast/brunch.  Then, while the top 8 matches are being played, run the largest games of Magic Trivia/Scattegories so far to date.

4.) For the money cards in those sets that are being rotessired(sp?) there will be proxied.  Off the top of my head that means LOA, Bazaar, Workshop, and Blue Duals.  Past that I will be keeping the top 8 decks in the top 8 area(players may leave their deck with a judge to piss or whatever) and decks of those who lose will be collected by a judge.

[iamfishman]

Appropriate Bump

[Kowal]

I will not, as it turns out, be making it.  Things are just toooooo busy right now.  My money is on Stefan Barnsworth to win the Vintage, and Herbig to win the Legacy.

[Myriad Games]

How did this go?

[Dxfiler]

35 people for the vintage portion, 45 people for the legacy.

Gifts won the vintage portion at 5-0.  Much combo was at the top tables.  I personally went 3-2 with workshopidant :p

Then came legacy... due to the increase of players in that tourney (multiples showed up at midnight just to play in that), there were two 5-0's left standing at the end. 

Brandon /w Threshold and anonymous masked rider with affinity.   

The top 8 was very very good, with virtually no unknowns.  Besides myse- I mean anonymous masked rider, other known players were Mike Herbig, Nate Peas and Mr. Nightmare.    The less familiar names in the top 8 were all good locals who have put up results in the area previously.  Even though the goal of the bonus top 8 eternal draft was fun, things got tense.  Everyone wanted the damn trophy. :p  In the end, Jeremiah Rudolph took it down with his mono white weenie deck.  He cut a swath through myself and Herbig, since we both fought on red/black and Jeremiah's deck had like 5 things pro red/black maindeck.  In the finals he beat Justin Brinner's UW deck, loaded with amazing cards that included multiple serendibs.  Of course, efreets and djinns are  no match for King Suleiman.  :p  The match was a sight to behold... I'll leave it at that.

Report on the way, when I get around to it.  Event was fantastic, Kudos to ray yet again for organizing a great tourney.  Everyone seemed to have fun... for 15 hours straight.

- Dave Feinstein