U/G aggro-control

[unblowupable]

moved...
I have tried to build a U/G aggro-control deck without power (don’t have the cards) that has good synergy and gameplay value through fun individual cards and little focus on combo (each to his own, and my own gets bored with combo decks). The result has ended up being a slightly unorthodox counter-creature deck, which is supposed to do well in the heavier side of a casual play. The meta-environment is primarily weenie decks and disruption decks.

MANA
2 Forests
2 Islands
4 Breeding Pool
4 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Sol Ring            
1 Lotus Petal   
         22
DRAW
1 Windfall
4 Brainstorm
1 Gush
1 Fact or Fiction
         7
DISRUPTION
3 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
3 FoW
4 Psionic Blast
         10
CREATURES
2 Mana Elves
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Eternal Witness
3 Ninja of the deep Hour
2 Morphling
1 Genesis
         21


I would appreciate people’s random thoughts on the deck. More specifically I am wondering about a few things:

Is Morphling out of place as a finisher, meaning does this deck need a finisher? Thought about cutting it for a couple of Plaxmania for additional disruption, but it always feels good having something there to save you in late-game… If in the opening hand, it just gets sacked to FoW or Misdirection, later to be picked back up by Genesis or Eternal Witness.

What is the opinion on the synergy between Ninjas, Genesis & Eternal Witness? (perhaps too slow and mana costly?) A problem with Genesis seems to be the lack of discard, except windfall, to get it into graveyard. The drains, however, should make it easy to cast if possible, where after it could either be sacked in combat or, if necessary, killed rather expensively by Psionic Blast.

More generally – what are the thoughts on mana curve, speed and the quantitative relation between creatures, draw and disruption?

Thanks for the feedback (please, be gentle…),
Unblowupable

[keys]

If you want to play Fish competitively in Vintage, most TMDers will tell you:

4 Force of Will, 4 Wasteland, 3 Null Rod are all mandatory.

Stifle and Daze are way better disruption than Mana Drain.  What were you using the Drain mana for?

Fact or Fiction is too slow, and Windfall definately doesn't have a place here (neither does Genesis).

Troll Ascetic is also slow by T1 standards (even with birds or elves to power him out turn 2), and Morphling is out of place as well.  Wild Mongrel, Nimble Mongoose, Werebear, and Quirion Dryad are better creatures.

Psionic Blast is pretty suboptimal.  Normally, some form of efficient bounce like Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor will be more helpful against a normal field.  But since you said your meta is mostly Weenie and Disruption, maybe (I feel silly saying this, but...) Giant Growth?  Keep the Blasts if you must.

Please play Regrowth.


That said, a stictly U/G build only lends itself to one semi-viable strategy: Madness.  Gro or "Birdshit" is another option but those are better with another splash.  If you really want to try something different, you could go for some sort of mana denial strategy with Root Maze, Back to Basics, and Stifle in addition to Wasteland.

Edit: By the way, if you remove the Drains, Gush, Strip Mine, and Sol Ring, your deck is Legacy legal.  You might want to port this over there, since I'd guess that your casual environment is made up of mostly Legacy decks as well.

[technogeek5000]

If you want to play Fish competitively in Vintage, most TMDers will tell you:

4 Force of Will, 4 Wasteland, 3 Null Rod are all mandatory.

Stifle and Daze are way better disruption than Mana Drain.

Only in this build

What were you using the Drain mana for?

...

Please play Regrowth.

I agree with these points

Creature changes:
-2 Superman (morphling)
-1 genesis
-1 troll ascetic: you can keep the others... its still not that bad of a card

+1 Spongebob (Ninja): your deck needs draw with the next changes
+2 Trygon predator: for stax

Draw changes:
-1 windfall
-1 Fact or fiction

+1 sensei's divining top: try it out... its unbelievable

Disruption changes:
-2 psionic blast

+1 stifle
+1 force of will: you need more permission

Utility changes:
+2 regrowth

Mana Changes:
-4 breeding pool: shock lands are pointless in vintage... if you want more blue add fetches
-1 sol ring
-1 lotus petal

+3 wasteland
+1 treetop village
+1 faerie conclave: more beats
+1 island

Try these changes and see what happens... test on MWS or with your local competition... if you dont like anything then just move some stuff around,

Hope i could help,
Tng5000

[wethepeople]

Utility changes:
+2 regrowth

I believe Regrowth is restricted.

You should do something like this for a creature base:

4x Geese
4x Mongrels
3x Werebears
3x Ninja of the Deep

throw in some Mishra's factories i say, especially with Ninja. A friend of mine had a UG Fish deck that ran four Ninjas with four Mongeese, and three Factories. I don't believe it ever became overkill. I will find his list. It is fairly outdated and he isnt a real competative Vintage player, but it is still worth the comparison.

EDIT: I found a list. Keep in mind that I did not put it together, however I did test it with him back in the day quite often.

I believe the idea of the deck was to quickly get threshold then drop Standstill (can you say oldschool?) to hold them off a bit while you get the advantage. Another thing I enjoyed doing when I played the deck was drop a dude and Standstill, then Ninjutsu and pick up cards while they do almost nothing at all.

 A few things in the deck were metagame calls if I am not mistaken. Chalice of the Void @ two messed him up often so he ran bounce at one and three, all the usual modifications. For some reason he has no creature removal besides those two bounce spells. It couldn't have been too bad because green generally has larger creatures than other Fish decks, but I still feel that something should be run MD.

Only 22 mana sources are run in his deck (8 of which are colorless), I am sure that Mana Denial was a problem for him back then. Wasteland however has been decreasing severely, so it may just be safe now.

For some reason he didnt even include Regrowth, how strange (he most likely forgot). That is definitely something that should be added when I make my own modifications to the list.

Anyway, here is his list:

Creatures:
4   Nimble Mongoose   
4   Ninja of the Deep Hours   
3   Werebear   
4   Wild Mongrel   


Spells:
1   Ancestral Recall   
4   Brainstorm   
4   Daze   
4   Force of Will   
1   Chain of Vapor   
1   Rushing River   
1   Time Walk   


Enchantments:
4   Standstill   

 
Artifacts:
1   Black Lotus   
1   Mox Emerald   
1   Mox Sapphire   
2   Null Rod   


Lands:
1   Flooded Strand   
1   Forest   
1   Island   
3   Mishra's Factory   
2   Polluted Delta   
1   Strip Mine   
4   Tropical Island   
4   Wasteland   
3   Windswept Heath

I never was able to find a sideboard, but that is something you should be able to decide yourself. I remember the deck doing fairly well, but it would clearly need to be updated for the list to once again be at all viable. I might as well try playing the deck again if anyone is too give me some insightful feedback.

[technogeek5000]

Utility changes:
+2 regrowth

I believe Regrowth is restricted.

My bad you are right...

so in 1 regrowth's place you should put...

chalice of the void

[unblowupable]

Thanks for the feedback. It calls for a larger reconstruction, but hopefully a good one, though less than conventional…

MANA
1 Forests
2 Islands
4 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
         22
DRAW
1 Regrowth
4 Brainstorm
1 Gush
1 Sensei’s Divining Top (don’t know but well…. worth a try)
         7
DISRUPTION
2 Misdirection
4 FoW
3 Psionic Blast
2 Stifle
         11
CREATURES
3 Mana Elves
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Eternal Witness
4 Ninja of the deep Hour
2 Trygon Predator
         20

A couple of comments on the suggestions and decisions made. The posts were all very helpful, so thanks.
1: I know madness is the most effective way to go here, but I kind of want to build something else and try a road less traveled.
2: Factories sounds fun, so I chose them over Conclave and Treetop. I am, however, worried about the large amount of colorless mana sources. But we'll see...
3: Due to the environment I have decided to stick to 3 Psionic Blasts. (Also thought about splashing red for some Fire/Ice and some FTKs for removal) Null rods didn’t make it due to meta. Trygon Predator seems like a good idea that doesn't slow it down.
4: If creatures turn out to be too slow, they'll get replaced with threshold, but gonna hold them off for a little while and try the above out. This way the deck might be a little slower, but hopefully more control will even it out. I love Dryad, but think he works better in a 3C deck.

[keys]

The list is looking much stronger, however you still need Daze.  I would play at least 3.  Next, your creature base could still use some tweaking.

After looking at your list I chuckled to myself about Ninja'ing into a Birds of Paradise...  Cute but really not the best use.  Troll Ascetic is still way too slow, in my opinion.  By comparison, Nimble Mongoose comes down turn 1, is also untargettable, and can often beat for 3 by turn 4 anyway.  And he's a much more reliable ninjitsu target.

Another great card I forgot to mention is Waterfront Bouncer.  URBana Fish runs 3 of them to great success.  The reason Bouncer is so strong is because so many combo decks win by cheating cards like Darksteel Collosus and Akroma into play, either through Welder, Tinker, or Oath of Druids.

Altogether I'd end up making these changes:

-4 Troll Ascetic
-4 Birds of Paradise
-3 Llanowar Elves
-3 Psionic Blast
+4 Nimble Mongoose
+3 Waterfront Bouncer
+4 Daze
+3 Null Rod

I know this looks like a lot of changes, but you will be greatly increasing your number of relevant threats and disruption.  But if you can't do something this drastic, at least lower the Troll count to 3 and replace the birds with Daze.

[wethepeople]

I agree with Keys on Bouncer. I play it in some of my other Fish decks, and since green has virtually no creature removal (or atleast none that I know of), so Waterfront Bouncer seems like the best card of choice that is playable in the deck that could meet this role. Psonic Blast seems real janky to me, I can't say that I have ever tested it, but it doesn't seem right. It can take out very small creatures, I know. However, when you are running a green creature base, you shouldnt be nearly as worried about the opposing aggro players field because you generally have larger creatures than them that are able to take care of such threats during the attack phase. I say you replace them with three Bouncers.

Lllanowar Elves must be replaced. This is Vintage. Replace them with something that has a stronger ability. Several people have suggested Nimble Mongoose (including myself), so that seems like the easiest switch. It doesnt even matter if you dont get Threshold, usually Geese just get Ninjustsud out early then dropped again within the following turns around when you've gained 7+ cards in the graveyard. If not, they easily work as 1/1 untargetable dudes that can be used to piss of your opponenent.

Troll Asetic doesnt seem to fit, the casting cost seems hard to pull off with four Wastes, one Strip Mine, and 2-4 Mishra's Factories. I suggest removing it, and at the very least run less than four maindeck.

Lastly, why dont you run Wild Mongrel?!? I love that card, it is one of, if not the best green creature released so far. You run Gush and Daze, both of which have great synergy with Mongrel. If you toss in Nimble Mongoose you have a team. You don't need to morph the entire list into Threshold.dec, but from my testing, that creature base is certainly the best green has to offer.

quick EDIT:

+3 Null Rod

1 Sensei’s Divining Top (don’t know but well…. worth a try)

It's either one or the other. If you want to follow the Mana Denial gameplan, Null Rod is better. A singleton Top isnt even worth it with no Tutoring, just cut it, it has almost no positive effect on your game at all.

[insertnamehere]

+3 Root maze
+3 back to Basics
- Non Basic Land
+ Basic Land
Equals Lockdown

Scoop, Good Game

[Rittler]

I was also toying around with the idea of playing a U/G deck and after some testing ended up with a U/G/b - variant...
First off, here a list of how far I am at the moment:

4x Wild Mongrel
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Dark Confidant
2x Ninja of the Deep Hours

2x Echoing Truth
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Life from the Loam
1x Regrowth
1x Vampiric Tutor

4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall

3x Stilfe
4x Force of Will
2x Daze
3x Duress

4x Wasteland
1x Stirp Mine
3x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
2x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Mox Emerald

I didn't come up with a sideboard yet, since this is just a testversion. I made a few games with it against oath and gifts, and I have to say that both isn't easy. Oath depends on how good your starting hand is, if u got a duress and FoW you're likely to win and Gifts seems to be dependent on speed. If u manage to cut him off lands (Wasteland --> Life from the Loam) and get a Mongrel + Life from the Loam online, you're likely to win.
But I'm definately not confidant with this built...

I'm searching for room to integrate 3-4 Null Rods and 1-2 Trygon Predators to improve the Staxx Matchup.
I don't own more Power than the Emerald and the Ancestral, so I can't integrate more.

This deck definately has a good matchup against aggro, since u can easily get the mongrel - Loam engine online and just walk over them. I also think that it wrecks other fish variants, but I didn't came to test yet.

I hope this helps and maybe you guys could help me improve my baby...

 

[hauntedechos]

If you are willin to drop a certain amount of control from your game plan, then Jacob Orlov's Worse Than Fish deck might be for you.  You can of course contact him through the board here, or read two articles on the deck and it's creation VIA Starcitygames article database.  There are two seperate articles in there for you to read.  I'm sorry I cannot help you out in your efforts more than this, however Worse than Fish seems to be having some solid results and it's fairly fast as well.

[wethepeople]

If you are willin to drop a certain amount of control from your game plan, then Jacob Orlov's Worse Than Fish deck might be for you.  You can of course contact him through the board here, or read two articles on the deck and it's creation VIA Starcitygames article database.  There are two seperate articles in there for you to read.  I'm sorry I cannot help you out in your efforts more than this, however Worse than Fish seems to be having some solid results and it's fairly fast as well.

I don't believe that deck has been discussed much on here for years. WTF is feeble compared to similar decks like Birdshit, which is probably the best Fish variant even using the color green in Vintage today.

[oneofchaos]

Oath does control the game and win with creatures, no? 

just some food for thought.

[Rittler]

I was playing WTF for a while, but recently it didn't do that well...too much combo out there. This is why I looked for something more competitive and came to the idea of adding black for Duress and Bob. Don't know if this is such a good idea but it should help.

Also I now came up with a sideboard for my meta which consits of the following:

like: 30% Gifts
 10% Oath
 20% Fish
 25% Staxx
 25% Gobbo's, unpopular Combos like Psychatog, Easter Tendrils, Kobold Clamp, Masknought and Roughe Decks

So I threw the following together:

2x Trygon Predator --> Staxx
3x Oxidize --> Staxx
3x Waterfront Bouncer --> Oath
1x Duress --> Gifts, Combo in general
1x Daze --> Gifts, Combo in general
2x Umezawa's Jitte --> Fish
3x Arcane Laboratory --> Combo in general

And I'm still searching for room for either 4x Chalice of the Void or 3 - 4 Null Rod...

What would u say?