[Single Card Discussion] Mind Swords

[netherspirit]

So, I've been toying around with SS lately and came across this little gem, Mind Swords. I've only been playing "real" (i.e not casual) Vintage for just over a year, so I don't know if this has been tried yet; but anyways, here it is for those of you who do not know it:

Mind Swords
 
Sorcery
If you control a Swamp, you may sacrifice a creature rather than pay Mind Swords's mana cost.
Each player removes two cards in his or her hand from the game.

Well that's the card itself. I've been using this as my main discard spell after Duress and it's proving to be insane.

So, let's list the pros and cons of the card.

Pros:
1) Easy to cast.
2) Can't be hit with Misdirection.
3) It RFGs the cards rather than ditching them; so they can't do any broken stuff with their 'yard.
4) It hits two cards for two mana, which is very nice.
5) Alternate mana cost.

Cons:
1) Hits yourself too.
2) RFGs your cards so you can't do anything broken with the 'yard.

Well they're all I can think of for now. I've found that losing two cards of your own is usually very little of a problem; as long as you have built up a little bit of card advantage or have some draw/discard spells in hand you can make this loss very uneven. Draw spells work very well for the obvious reason that they let you race ahead; and discard spells work well because they allow you to further delay your opponent.

Now, what decks could use this card though? Personally I think the following all have potential slots for this:
SS,
Monoblack Suicide (if only it were still playable),
Oath,
Black Stax,
U/B Fish variants,
Any monoblack disruption decks,
Ichorid and all its variants.

I daresay that some people will agree with that list, some will disagree, and some will have more to add that I've missed; so, comments on that are welcome.

Anyways, that's all I can think of to say on the card for now, so I'll leave it at that. So, what do you guys think? Could Mind Swords see play in Vintage?

  netherspirit

[+t]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a 3 for 2 in favor of your oponent.

You're using a card and 1B to have you and your opponent both remove two cards from the game.

If you use the apc this is a 4 for 2 oponent.

Why didn't you list "inherent card disadvantage" as a con?

What's worse is that the oponent gets to choose which cards he/she removes from the game. 

The only reason that I could think that you'd like it is has some synergy with Erayo's Essence (you mentioned SS).  I guess you might get this to work in a deck that seeks to dump its hand asap (Which, IIRC, SS does not want to do).  There are also some synergies with Confidant, both in him letting you recoup cards and in letting you sac him if he's about to kill you.

Edit: How is this better than Cabal Therapy?

[wethepeople]

I'd  rather just hardcast it than sacrifice a creature, and when I am to do so, there are much better things I can use. Why, in any way is this better than Duress, because I certainly don't have enough slots to run both in nearly every list I can think of.

The alternate CC is terrible. You only save one mana if you were to sac a one drop, and you lose 4 cards in exchange for two of your opponents in which they get to choose. Duress is good because you can drop it fast, and be sure to take away one of your opponents key cards. Mind Swords on the other hand requires you to wait an extra turn, where you may very well be too late, as well as remove at least three cards from your hand.

If you plan on trying to use the alternate casting cost early game, you are required to play a black one drop turn one as well as a Swamp of some sort. As far as I know, there are very little, if not zero viable black 1-drop creatures in Vintage. Even if you found one, and used it for this, you would now be down four cards from your original hand. [Sacrificed creature, Mind Swords, 2 RFG]

This isnt even better than Unmask, which also doesn't see much play in Vintage with the exception of some Combo-based decks.

[Pizzatog]

This card is custom made for Ichorid.

[President Skroob]

I'm an Ichorid player, and while this card presents interesting possibilities, it's also difficult to set up the situation where it can come into play. Essentially, you have to have an Ichorid in play (I'm not tossing a Putrid Imp to this spell, it's too useful for other things to sac for it), Swords essentially has to be the last card in your hand, and you have to be sitting on a Swamp. On the off chance that you have two in hand, you can't cast the second because the first is going to remove the second. That's a narrow use, and with that kind of investment I'd actually rather be using Cry of Contrition, simply because it is castable for B for a fairly not great effect but it becomes a decent effect with a creature out. Cry of Contrition also is usable in multiples. Obviously, you get something for going all in with Mind Swords since they're RFG, but most of the time it's a tough card to field.

I think there are better options for Ichorid, and I don't think it's even playable in any other decks.

[wethepeople]

Well that's the card itself. I've been using this as my main discard spell after Duress and it's proving to be insane.

By the way, what have you been testing it in?

I forgot about the idea of using it in Ichorid, which may work, but still it seems like there's got to be better selections, as President Skroob went over in his last post.

[zulander]

Would be great in mono black suicide since you usually run out of a hand pretty fast. It's a 1 for 2 if you play your hand, but only in limited situations is it actual card advantage. Personally I like 4 duress and mesmeric fiends over this.

[wethepeople]

Would be great in mono black suicide since you usually run out of a hand pretty fast. It's a 1 for 2 if you play your hand, but only in limited situations is it actual card advantage. Personally I like 4 duress and mesmeric fiends over this.

Yeah but no one even plays SuiBlk,the deck itself isn't even viable these days. Those of whom who do have much better choices than this card, Duress, Fiend, Mind Twist, Unmask, etc.

[nataz]

Very nice little find. While it certainly doesn't fit into the currently hyped mana-less version, it could possibly be used in some of the nine-mana versions that are floating about. One nice thing is that it fits your "cuve" quite nicely on turn 2 with an Imp, or as an additional free discard on turn 3. I think cabal therp is obv. much better (yay skill). but this feels better then duress because you can use it the same turn you bring back an ashen.

As far as dismissing this card because of the apparent CA loss, please, lets be serious here. Thats like saying Cabal therp shouldn't be played because it costs you a creature AND a card, where as you often only nab a single card with therp from you opponent. As far as wanting to do better things with two mana, when does any version of ichorid reasonably get to two mana in the first place? The only example I could think of was balance, and even that was cut from most lsts because of the CC akwardness.   

*flash edit
For some reason I thought we were just talking about ichorid here. While it is certainly interesting in the framework of an ichorid deck, I don't think this would even be considered anywhere else. My b.

[netherspirit]

Well that's the card itself. I've been using this as my main discard spell after Duress and it's proving to be insane.

By the way, what have you been testing it in?

I forgot about the idea of using it in Ichorid, which may work, but still it seems like there's got to be better selections, as President Skroob went over in his last post.

I've been using it in Cookie Monster, SS and Monoblack Suicide.

As for this over Duress: No discard card beats Duress, that's something I've already accepted.

EDIT: And yes I know Monoblack Sui sucks; but it's good for a bit of casual fun.

[wethepeople]

How is this even playable in SS where you only have 8 creatures in which you need to win the game? If you plan on just hard casting it, there's got to be something better. I have seen others, and tested myself Hymn to Tourach in Sullivan Solution as a 1-2 of and it was good to me.

That is certainly a better choice than Mind Swords for SS because it only affects them, and it's at random, so it is more likely to take out something you want them to get rid of, where as with Mind Swords they are able to choose.The only thing I can think that MS has on Hymn is the CC, and the fact that Swords RFG's their shit, eliminating the ability to go broken with Yawg Will afterwards.

It *might* be playable in Ich, but I honestly do not think it can be any good elsewhere.

[Thegreatgonzo]

Mind swords means card advantage if you have 0 card in hand and your opponent have 2. That's quite narrow. But I think it deserve some thinking anymay. Hymn to Tourach comes to mind.
Mind swords is easier to cast, can't be misdirected, and does not allow graveyard tricks. (As already stated)
Black ubastax could pack this, might be worth the try.