[Deck] Win Long

[andrewpate]

Yeah, a couple of us already suggested Tinker Colossus.  It seems like a great way to avoid the Extract issue.

[netherspirit]

Right, well here's the current list! Hopefully it'll help you guys see how the deck's evolved so far. I'm really running out of things to cut though.

Mana Base:
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Swamp
1 Island

Card Draw/Tutors:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Night's Whisper
2 Mental Note
1 Frantic Search
3 Careful Study

Disruption:
4 Force of Will
4 Duress

Accelerants:
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

Brokenness:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Chain of Vapor

The Kill:
3 Tendrils of Agony


Well there it is! I hope that makes assessing and improving the deck easier!

[memnarch]

Yeah, a couple of us already suggested Tinker Colossus.  It seems like a great way to avoid the Extract issue.

I prefer to put Memory Jar in that slot. 5 mana for the hard-cast let it have double usage (in other words Darksteel in your hand sucks). Your entire deck is built around Tendrils.
On the other hand, if you’re getting Extracted or Jestered, then I can definitely see running Darksteel for a slot. He definitely is a great win condition.

@netherspirit: You know, Yawgmoth has another invention that’s restricted. 

[netherspirit]

@netherspirit: You know, Yawgmoth has another invention that’s restricted. 

Why yes he does.. And it's something I had considered. But it's a 6 casting sorcery speed spell.

[ctthespian]

@netherspirit: You know, Yawgmoth has another invention that’s restricted. 

Why yes he does.. And it's something I had considered. But it's a 6 casting sorcery speed spell.

Yeah but that enchantment single handedly wins games.

[netherspirit]

@netherspirit: You know, Yawgmoth has another invention that’s restricted. 

Why yes he does.. And it's something I had considered. But it's a 6 casting sorcery speed spell.

Yeah but that enchantment single handedly wins games.

Hmmm, good point, but what would be worth cutting from the deck WITHOUT taking away from the original idea?

[memnarch]

Well Im not going to tell you what to do with your deck I will just show you my version. People told me to move my deck to this thread because it wasn’t "Pitch Long" because it doesn’t use Force of Will. But I will say this; it wins turn 2 a good 70% of the time. I modified it slightly since I last posted because people were saying I needed more disruption, so -1 nights whisper +1 duress. Also although Wheel of Fortune is a great card for this deck but decided its not worth splashing red for it. It’s just too hard to get red mana sometimes. So I replaced that with Demonic consultation.


here is my list

mana 31
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
1 swamp
1 island
1 tolarian academy
5 moxes
1 black lotus
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
1 lotus petal
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual

tutor 6
1 demonic tutor
1 imperial seal
1 vampiric tutor
1 personal tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 demonic consultation

draw 12
1 ancestral recall
1 timetwister
1 tinker
1 memory jar
1 windfall
1 time spiral
1 yawgmoths bargain
1 yawgmoths will
1 necropotence
3 night's whisper

utility 7
2 repeal
3 duress
1 timewalk
1 hurkyl's recall

win 4
4 tendrils of agony

I really like night's whisper after trying it in my deck. Getting black mana sources is the easiest thing to get in the deck. Also after tutoring with a tutor that puts it on top of your library it's good to be able to draw it that turn and not have to wait. Repeal is great for that reason. Plus mox sapphire and repeal are more than broken. I often find myself tutoring for a sapphire if I am holding two repeals.

[Zarathustra]

But I will say this; it wins turn 2 a good 70% of the time.

What!?  There is no need for a claim this bold.  Original Long was the deck that has this sort of win percentage.  Your deck is not that broken.  You even play 4 Tendrils.  Way too many.  You need, need, NEED Force of Will.

Whisper is only +1 CA and costs life, which hurts.  Wheel is better. 

-DShell

[netherspirit]

Whisper is only +1 CA and costs life, which hurts.  Wheel is better. 

Wheel lets your opponent draw disruption though, so it isn't "technically" better; it doesn't work in the same way so you can't really compare them.

[memnarch]

I am not really worried about my opponent drawing disruption. I tossed the Wheel because I wasn’t getting red mana consistently enough and I don’t know if it’s worth switching to city of brass and Forbidden Orchards just for that one card.
The wheel is definitely better then Night's Whisper. Its +6 CA compared to +1 CA. night's whisper is the plan B draw card. It just happens to go well in this deck because it’s black (on color) and fairly cheap. I don’t care about losing life when I play this deck when I am going to win that turn anyways.

[Zarathustra]

Wheel lets your opponent draw disruption though, so it isn't "technically" better; it doesn't work in the same way so you can't really compare them.

In most combo decks, Draw-7's are insane.  Sure, they can draw disruption, but you should draw more bombs than they have disruption.  In most cases, you can just force through the spell that will the game by casting bomb after bomb... until one sticks, and you win.

@memnarch: There is probably a reason why you were colored screwed, you're missing lands.  You only have eleven...  11...  That's way too few, 13 should be your key number.  I still don't see how this deck lacks Brainstorm.  You need Brainstorm.  It lets you keep 1-landers.  It improves an OK hand, Brainstorm and fetchlands are amazing.  You must have made a mistake excluding Brainstorm.

-DShell

[InfinityCircuit]

Wheel lets your opponent draw disruption though, so it isn't "technically" better; it doesn't work in the same way so you can't really compare them.

In most combo decks, Draw-7's are insane.  Sure, they can draw disruption, but you should draw more bombs than they have disruption.  In most cases, you can just force through the spell that will the game by casting bomb after bomb... until one sticks, and you win.

@memnarch: There is probably a reason why you were colored screwed, you're missing lands.  You only have eleven...  11...  That's way too few, 13 should be your key number.  I still don't see how this deck lacks Brainstorm.  You need Brainstorm.  It lets you keep 1-landers.  It improves an OK hand, Brainstorm and fetchlands are amazing.  You must have made a mistake excluding Brainstorm.

-DShell

How is 11 lands too few if aiming for a turn 1 or 2 win?  There was some calculation done in the Pitch Long thread I believe that showed that 11 lands was the current number for Grim Long (4 Cities/3 Mines/2 USea/1 Orchard/Academy).  Since this deck runs even less disruption and more aggressive spells like Night's Whisper it seems like 11 is a good number, maybe 12, but not 13.

Looking at your deck, memnarch, the thing I don't understand is why you aren't simply running Meandeck Tendrils or Workshop Tendrils.  The newest version of Meandeck Tendrils can win on turn 1 70% of the time at least in the hands of an excellent pilot.  The only advantage you gain is mana stability and 3 Duress.  However, if you simply add Duress to the Meandeck Tendrils shell you can probably achieve 80% second-turn kills with the same amount of disruption as the version you posted.

I also notice some bizarre spell choices.  You run Personal Tutor and Time Spiral but don't use Mind's Desire, Brainstorm, or 4 Repeal.  It seems like your deck is torn between a slower TPS-type game and a faster, early-kill game.  However, you don't have the disruption to accomplish the first or the speed to accomplish the second.

@netherspirit: I think that Imperial Seal is better than Mystical Tutor in this case.  Also, I don't understand why you aren't running Mana Vault - it seems like a great choice for a fast storm combo deck.  I think that Frantic Search is a definite candidate for cutting - it doesn't accomplish much more than Careful Study and you don't want to have the 3 lands available to actually use it to its full potential.  I also love how Chain of Vapor qualifies as 'brokenness' 

[Zarathustra]

How is 11 lands too few if aiming for a turn 1 or 2 win?  There was some calculation done in the Pitch Long thread I believe that showed that 11 lands was the current number for Grim Long (4 Cities/3 Mines/2 USea/1 Orchard/Academy).  Since this deck runs even less disruption and more aggressive spells like Night's Whisper it seems like 11 is a good number, maybe 12, but not 13.

Because I don't see how this deck can hope to win turn 1 or 2.  People can offer bold claims, but it doesn't make it true.

The problem with your theory is, this isn't Pitch Long.  How do you figure this deck can operate on only 11 or 12 lands, when you're going off an idea that belongs to another deck.?

Looking at your deck, memnarch, the thing I don't understand is why you aren't simply running Meandeck Tendrils or Workshop Tendrils.  The newest version of Meandeck Tendrils can win on turn 1 70% of the time at least in the hands of an excellent pilot.  The only advantage you gain is mana stability and 3 Duress.  However, if you simply add Duress to the Meandeck Tendrils shell you can probably achieve 80% second-turn kills with the same amount of disruption as the version you posted.

Meandeck Tendrils is not a good combo deck.  It dies to all sorts of hate and if any disruption is thrown it's way, it just crawls into a fetal position and cries.  Besides, I don't see any modern combo decks sporting an 80% win against the field.  That just doesn't happen.

-DShell