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Author Topic: [Deck Discussion] 2.5c Grim Long  (Read 8207 times)
Aardshark
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« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2007, 05:01:42 pm »

I have been testing Orim's chant (and abeyance, see my post above) and have also found the colored mana too tight in the early turns with an 11 land build (I've been playing 5c with regrow hand 1 ETW main). 

There seems to be consensus that swarm is also weak right now:

What relevance does Xantid have right now? Almost every blue based deck is using 3+ Repeals.
I agree with Xantid being less than amazing at the moment for different reason.

Assuming for the moment that both chant and swarm do not currently belong, the only remaining reasons to play a 5c rather than a fetch manabase would seem to be: 1) immunity from stifle of fetchlands, and 2) regrowth.

The stifle immunity seems to me to be roughly offset the protection from strip effects that fetches provide, even without basics (though I'd run a swamp if I switched to fetches-- note also that if they have stifle you still must deal with it before casting tendrils/ETW).

This would leave regrowth as the main reason to play 5c. 

Yesterday Steve posted strong arguments in favor of regrowth. 

Questions I'm pondering:

1) could the benefits of regrowth alone (without swarm or chant) outweigh the opportunity costs of a 5c manabase? I respect the card, but I'm doubtful.
2) if not swarm or chant, what other sideboard (and to a lesser extent maindeck) options does grim have? more emphasis on alternative wins (rituals and ETW and/or tinker-->colossus/titan)? extra mana for a slower gameplan? Random defense (e.g. tormod's crypt/annul/extract/stifle)? Force of Will? (The latter is an old plan I'm leaning toward, but have not re-tested in the current meta).
3) would chant be improved as a sideboard option with more land after sideboard and a slower gameplan?  Note that chant has the potential to either get you to and protect your combo in a later turns.  Has anyone tried this? (I have not).
4) is my assumption inaccurate? Is there actually consensus that either swarm OR chant belong in the sideboard (and maindeck), but disagreement as to which?
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Irenicus
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« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2007, 08:59:45 am »

@ Chant in general:
As I stated above, I thinkt, that Chant (can) work(s) in Grim Long. Sure, it alot easier to cast a Duress then a Chant, but my built for example plays 6 disruption spells and I don't like Swarm in the current metagame. Therefore I think, that Chant is a good addition to Duress.

Here are some arguments for Chant:

- Sometimes it timewalks. For example after a Draw7 you can Chant in there upkeep to prevent any "bad" things.
- It works vs Split Second and "makes" your turn safe. That's just like the Swarm ability, but without summoning-sickness. Therefore more surprising. Grim Long can be quite difficult to play and it's nice to know that your opponent can't interact. (I compare this reason to the addition of Tendrils in Meandeck-Gifts, because it makes wins easier to play out.)
- It can prevent your opponent from winning. I know that it doesn't happen that often, but it sometimes wins the game.
- Good player that know that you are a good player fear Orim's Chant. This means, that you can play Chant as a tool to mislead your opponent. For example you are on the draw and go City of Brass => Chant (holding 6 cards). Even if you don't have a great plan (eg. Lotus => Draw7) your opponent is forced to decide how "broken" your play is going to be. Making your opponent to make decissions is good. Another example is the "late game", where both players need to topdeck. You are holding 2 Lands and Chant to get your Chant countered to help resolving a bomb next turn (just like Duress or Swarm would do). Remeber, it's often right to counter Chant with your only counterspell to be able to play your Fow's after a Draw7.
- Vs. unpowered/decks without counterspells (e.g. Stax) it often works as a Timewalk.

That are just some reasons to try/play Chant. The point is, that Chant interacts with your opponent in a way, that you can (sometimes) abuse.
 
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desolutionist
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« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2007, 11:50:44 pm »

I just split for 1st at a Sapphire/Drain event with this list.  Report will come later.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

----------------------------
3 Night's Whisper
3 Thrashing Wumpus
2 Rebuild
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Windfall
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 10:57:19 am by desolutionist » Logged

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Gekoratel
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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2007, 01:27:42 am »

In case anyone is still interested in 2.5 Long I made the finals of a 60 man Beta Recall tourney with the following list.

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Enchantments
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
3 Grim Tutor
1 Infernal Contract
1 Mind's Desire
1 Imperial Seal
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Orim's Chant
2 Thrashing Wumpus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island

Orim's Chant were an all-star for me helping me to win two matches against Gifts.  Having a total of 4x EtW post-board was also solid because it's a card that grows dramatically stronger when its in your opening 7. 

If you play tight this deck will really reward you as most of the games that I lost were due to mistakes on my part which is also why I lost in the finals.  I won the game where I mulled to 5 and my opponent had turn 1 Ancestral, I lost the game where I had turn 1 Necro and Tinker->Jar, some crazy stuff.
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desolutionist
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« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2007, 03:37:46 pm »

Jeff, have you tested Therapy at all?  I know that you don't like the possibility that it can be "whiffed", but more often than not it isn't impossible to read your opponent's signals in Force vs. Drains.  (Mysticals/Scrolls help)
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Moxlotus
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« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2007, 03:58:34 pm »

I've been running Extirpates in the board for the control match and they have been amazing.  Snatch a Drain/FoW and draw 7 at will.  Plus, you usually can hit a card in their hand since they just fetched for a counter (and showed you which) with a Merchant Scroll.
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desolutionist
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« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2007, 08:02:20 pm »

I just top 8ed at a Library/Jet event with this list:  (I lost 1st match of top 8, being my first match loss in two tournaments)

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Grim Tutor
1 Windfall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

----------------------------
4 Orim's Chant
1 Scrubland
2 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Infernal Contract

*EDIT*

What does everyone think about Children of Korlis over Orim's Chant in the sideboard?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 08:46:49 am by desolutionist » Logged

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