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Author Topic: [Deck] Tyrant Oath V2.1  (Read 1891 times)
Balamor
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« on: April 16, 2007, 11:35:26 am »

Decided to make a new thread on a old idea.
Although the deck runs great, i am looking to have a little more control over the board...

Heres my list I'm currently running.
// Land: 16
4  Forbidden Orchard
2  Flooded Strand
2  Polluted Delta
4  Tropical Island
1  Underground Sea
1  Island
1  Tolarian Academy
1  Library of Alexandria
// Artifact mana: 9
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Black Lotus
1  Lotus Petal
1  Mana Crypt
1  Sol Ring
// Creatures: 3
2  Tidespout Tyrant
1  Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
// Draw: 11
1  Ancestral Recall
3  Thirst for Knowledge
2  Deep Analysis
4  Impulse
1  Skeletal Scryng
// Tutors: 1
1  Demonic Tutor
// The Core: 4
4  Oath of Druids
// Protections: 12
4  Chalice of the Void
4  Mana Drain
4  Force of Will
// Tools: 3
1  Time Walk
1  Yawgmoth's Will
1  Echoing Truth
// Sideboard
To be announced

Now that we have the body of the deck, lets take a look on what could be improved.
Cards i have floating around as possibilities, or cards that dint quite fit right;

Exhaustion: a 3 mana lock. This card commands another turn in a deck that already decides what you get to keep in play. (or a 2 mana time walk with grand arbitor in play)
Cunning wish: Looking for a stifle to not get stormed out?
Personal tutor: I find the deck lacks go-get'em cards, but a 1 mana casting cost is clearly inferior in a deck that PLANS to play a 1Chalice when the card comes up.
Brainstorm: I replaced these with impulse because i kept drawing them with 1Chalice out. a clear choice, only drawback i find with impulse is now the deck lacks any way to put those 2 tidespouts in your hand, back on top.
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV: A new card i added recently and replaced with gaeas blessing. but suddenly this makes my chalice my worst enemy, I cant flashback Deep Analysis goodbye impulse, echoing truth, time walk. Was considering just adding a third tidespout in his place.
Deep Analysis: wowza! 2 mana, 3 life, 2 cards. Who can complain!? except when its in your hand... and have no way to pitch it to your GY except spending 4 mana on your main phase to draw 2 cards.
Hurkyl's Recall: I think i need to find a slot for this, its a lot of bounce and mana when a tidespout is in play.
Yawg's will: some people say this doesent belong in oath, I tell those people to test the deck 100 times and let me know how many games were won by casting it, was it more then 5? Then what game winning card do you plan on replacing with it? I like it, it works well with no gaeas.


Any ideas out there? i plan on playing this in an upcoming event in my area.
I am also looking for somewhere in CT i can playtest some vintage, send me a PM on that though.
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Harlequin
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2007, 11:53:00 am »

Personally, I don't like chalice in oath.  Esp in a tidespool build.  In place of chalice I would run some combination of Duress and Repeal (very good with Tidespool).  Repeal is nice beause it answer chalice @2 (where ETruth does not).  taking out chalice means you can swap your Thirsts for Brainstorms.

If you opt not to do that, you may want to check out Lat-Nam's Legacy.  It evetually replaces itself and the card you put back, however you do spend some time down on hand-size. 
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Malhavoc
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2007, 01:26:06 pm »

I've been playing Tyrant Oath for months, so I can give you some tested thoughts. You can also search the forum for a couple of threads I've posted, one with a chalice-based Tyrant Oath, and the other without.

First of all, I think the version without chalice is a bit superior, even if this is dependent on the metagame: if you get double tyrant and a chalice in play you've simply won, but that doesn't happen often, or fast. Having just a Tyrant and a chalice is nice, but doesn't win the game immediately, even if most of the time could slow the opponent enough to win. Usually, I've found the cunning-freeze finisher the best one, with control-beatdown being the Plan-B, in particular against decks where I side in chalice (because, OF COURSE, they are in the sideboard for certain matches like TPS); the problem is that chalice is not the best card against every deck, hence my decision to keep it as a sideboard choice.

From your list, I see you run just TOO MANY tropicals! You have just 4 green spells! One or at worst two tropicals are definitely enough.

Some words about the cards you've told:

Quote
Exhaustion: a 3 mana lock. This card commands another turn in a deck that already decides what you get to keep in play. (or a 2 mana time walk with grand arbitor in play)

Crap, really. It is just a win more or a do-nothing. It really doesn't serve any role.

Quote
Cunning wish: Looking for a stifle to not get stormed out?

I play with an handful of duress, so I don't fear trickbind too much; with chalice, when you combo out, you can also set chalice at 1 or 2 if you fear stifle or trickbind. Even if you set them at 2, your brainfreeze will be countered, but all its copies will not, and you'll win anyway. Resetting chalices at 2 or 5 when comboing out to protect cunning against drain/force is a good thing to do also.

Quote
Personal tutor: I find the deck lacks go-get'em cards, but a 1 mana casting cost is clearly inferior in a deck that PLANS to play a 1Chalice when the card comes up.

Mystical is very good, but I don't think Personal tutor is really worth it with its sorcery speed. After all your win card is an enchantment, not an instant or sorcery; decks which have sorcery/instant winners don't run it: why you should?

Quote
Brainstorm: I replaced these with impulse because i kept drawing them with 1Chalice out. a clear choice, only drawback i find with impulse is now the deck lacks any way to put those 2 tidespouts in your hand, back on top.

This is a difficult choice: I've tried to play without brainstorm, but it's not the same. The problem is not putting back Tyrants: the odds you get both in hand is little, and after all you only need one in play to win (I run only 1 maindeck in the chalice-less version after all); the problem is adjusting your hands and protecting your bombs. Overall, I think brainstorm is still worth inclusion, even if you want to play chalice@1, at least as a 3x.

Quote
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV: A new card i added recently and replaced with gaeas blessing. but suddenly this makes my chalice my worst enemy, I cant flashback Deep Analysis goodbye impulse, echoing truth, time walk. Was considering just adding a third tidespout in his place.

First: lowering your two mana cc spells does not put them under chalice@1: they still are cc2 spells even if you pay only 1 for them.
However, GAA is just a win more, and not even a good one: if you flip with oath it first instead of Tyrant you put yourself a whole turn behind; ok, if you get this AND Tyrant that's nice, but not an auto-win, and two Tyrants would have been. Just cut it. Ah, and don't run 3 Tyrants,  2 are even too much (but a fair choice in a chalice build). You could think about running 2+ Tyrants only if you plan to play one or more Show and Tell, and I could do that only in a metagame full of chalice@2 and meddlings.

Quote
Deep Analysis: wowza! 2 mana, 3 life, 2 cards. Who can complain!? except when its in your hand... and have no way to pitch it to your GY except spending 4 mana on your main phase to draw 2 cards.

Deep Analysis is good with TfK, and it is not so hard to cast after a drain, and it's simply awesome when you flip it with oath, giving you the same card advantage as an ancestral (+2, as an ancestral if you consider the latter needs you to lose the ancestral itself from hand) and granting you to have one or two spells to cast as you flip Tyrant, making you bouncing cards even if you was empty-handed. Even if they kill the first Tyrant, you rebuild your hand and prepare the win with the second Tyrant and a regrowth hand.

Quote
Hurkyl's Recall: I think i need to find a slot for this, its a lot of bounce and mana when a tidespout is in play.

Your major fear is Chalice@2. Don't play Hurkyl. If you want a bounce, play something among Rebuild, Repeal, Rushing or Cunning for something. Even chain of vapor is nice.

Quote
Yawg's will: some people say this doesent belong in oath, I tell those people to test the deck 100 times and let me know how many games were won by casting it, was it more then 5? Then what game winning card do you plan on replacing with it? I like it, it works well with no gaeas.

YagWin is another big win condition: even if risky, you can win milling your deck, reclaiming Ywin and winning playing your grave for a lethal freeze (if you run at least a cunning). Sometimes instead, it juts gives you SO much advantage. You could think about running black or not, but if you run black, YWin is an autoinclusion. BTW, I see you don't run Krosan Reclamation. That's a deadly card with Ywin, make you shuffle back good cards you've milled, blocks some cards from your opponent's graveyard, shuffles away some of his top-deck tutor, shuffle backs a tyrant discarded with Thirst, and prevent you from losing if you are so unlucky to flip Tyrant as one of you very last cards.

Quote
Lat-Nam's Legacy

Slow, color-intensive, card disadvantage. Just no.
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Tipo1: Everything about Vintage in Italy.
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2007, 01:49:31 pm »

My question is what do u use arbiter for?  It seems like he is there merely as a win more card which, while it makes them operate under SoR, that can be played around.  Instead, why not have tyrant out, and bounce their lands?

Deep Analysis seems kinda odd without anyway of getting it to the gy... sure Thirst does this, but that's only 3 cards inyour deck and you want to maximize thirsts use by pitching an artifact not a deep analysis and something else...  It just seems too big of a drain target otherwise.

Quote
Quote
Deep Analysis: wowza! 2 mana, 3 life, 2 cards. Who can complain!? except when its in your hand... and have no way to pitch it to your GY except spending 4 mana on your main phase to draw 2 cards.

Deep Analysis is good with TfK, and it is not so hard to cast after a drain, and it's simply awesome when you flip it with oath, giving you the same card advantage as an ancestral (+2, as an ancestral if you consider the latter needs you to lose the ancestral itself from hand) and granting you to have one or two spells to cast as you flip Tyrant, making you bouncing cards even if you was empty-handed. Even if they kill the first Tyrant, you rebuild your hand and prepare the win with the second Tyrant and a regrowth hand.

I don't see a reason why the hand would need to be rebuilt THAT much... Most likely, the deck will have spent a lot of resources trying to kill the first one (unless they had STP or something already in hand).  With an active Oath still in play, your game position is reset automatically during your next upkeep as another Tyrant comes into play...  I am not saying that DA is a bad card or that it can't help you once Oath is activated... But if Oath is activated you should already be winning and before activation DA is just too hard to play unless you have drain mana b/c the exchange with TFK is often not worth it since you have to pitch another card too...

Skeletal Scrying is a good card, don't get me wrong, but did you find it to be just a bit random?  Like how often did it play a role?  I understand it allows you to draw your deck (barring life) with oatch activations (at which point you should already be winning)...  I'm more concerned with before that... I spose it works as a drain target, but I'd be worried about the opponent then draining scrying.  Idk, I was just curious what your testing showed/why it was a one of.

Chalice for 1 should not hinder brainstorms too much...  You should have played your brainstorms before it comes down as a way of fixing mana problems/card quality (substitute all reasons BS is good)...  After Chalice for 1 comes down, it is then pitchable to FoW... and after a single oath activation (you should never have more than one creatures in hand... hopefully...) you can then bounce your chalice, play BS, and then replay Chalice if you need to...  In contrast, Chalice does hurt the other person's BS, and more importantly, cards like STP are shut off hpoefully long enough for you to gain control with Tyrants that it doesn't matter.  I completely agree with Malhavoc in that Chalice provides a lot of inbuilt protection while, at the same time, allowing you to combo off.

LoA seems really bad in the format right now... few decks want to go into long prlonged matches and you rarely have 7 cards in hand (unless right off a draw card.  It seems that a strip mine/wastes would be more helpful since they help you in the mirror match way more and allow you to delay the game long enough for things like Oath to have a greater impact.

Why don't you add vampiric tutor?  Granted, its not as good as demonic, but it does allow you to find oath/orchard when you need it at instant speed... Not to mention cards like Echoing Truth much quicker if chalice for 2 is ever set...
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Malhavoc
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2007, 02:05:51 pm »

Quote
I don't see a reason why the hand would need to be rebuilt THAT much... Most likely, the deck will have spent a lot of resources trying to kill the first one (unless they had STP or something already in hand).  With an active Oath still in play, your game position is reset automatically during your next upkeep as another Tyrant comes into play...  I am not saying that DA is a bad card or that it can't help you once Oath is activated... But if Oath is activated you should already be winning and before activation DA is just too hard to play unless you have drain mana b/c the exchange with TFK is often not worth it since you have to pitch another card too...

It's true that the opponent could have depleted his hand to destroy the first Tyrant, but on the other hand you could have depleted yours in order to make Oath enter play (and he could have decided to let you play it, keeping his winning cards in hand). If you have an empty hand and you draw a land or a spell which does not make you tutor/draw, your Tyrant will only bounce one or at best two permanents the first turn. In many situations, this could be enough, but not always. Against aggro it could be (since it's also going to block), but against combo  or control, just bouncing one or two lands doesn't make you win immediately, and giving your opponent time to try comboing out isn't nice. Deep makes you draw, bounce permanents in the process, and help you win on the spot or gain an huge advantage. I also have to admit, however, that it is quite more powerful in a build like mine running a couple of intuitions.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 02:08:52 pm by Malhavoc » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2007, 03:52:54 pm »

Again, I am not bashing DA... I just figured that DA was a win more card for the most part unless you have alternative means of getting it to the gy b/c otherwise its sole purpose is being a clunky drawer that sits in your hand as FoW food...  Don't get me wrong, filling your hand with cards is cool... but most likely the only cards that will matter are FoW since you are spending your mana to cast DA and thus limiting the amount of mana open for Drain etc...  So if they did hold off on playing their hand and let you play your cards so that they could win later... they still probably will unless the disruption provided by tyrant *regardless of cards in hand* stops them...  again, DA is useful, and can definately be incredibly strong after an oath activation, but w/o other means of getting it into the gy it is a win more card...

Arbiter is cool and all, but there is NO WAY that you can assume he will come up first.  Additionally, if you are worried about combo, by the time Arbiter hits it is often too late anyway or you should be far enough ahead that it shouldn't matter... Not to mention, there isn't much more that is more disruptive than bouncing two lands to an opponents hand on turns 2-3..so, if that isn't sufficient, then they probably have enough mana to play around arbiter either for bounce or to just win anyway...  What arbiter DOES do... is significantly hinder you from bouncing ALL of their permenants on the 2nd activation b/c you are likely to draw him.  Frankly, I just find him to be unnecesary... If you are so worried about combo, well you should probably maindeck hate answers since the reason they are a threat is because their combo is faster than your "combo" and thus arbiter is too slow.

In terms of control... how many control matches do you find are significantly altered by its inclusion?  You already have Oath in play if you have arbiter... and if you are looking for answers to control while oath is in play you can SB for SSS and just win with a faster clock that they can't do anything about....SSS is infinitely better than Tyrant or Arbiter in control matches.
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brianpk80
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2007, 12:39:55 am »

Quote from: Balamor
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV: A new card i added recently and replaced with gaeas blessing. but suddenly this makes my chalice my worst enemy, I cant flashback Deep Analysis goodbye impulse, echoing truth, time walk. Was considering just adding a third tidespout in his place.

No, Arbiter does not change the converted mana cost of any cards; it only allows you to play them at a discount.  I'm assuming you're talking about Chalice @ 1 here.  With Arbiter in play, you are free to Echoing Truth, Time Walk, etc. 

Quote from: demonic effect
What arbiter DOES do... is significantly hinder you from bouncing ALL of their permenants on the 2nd activation b/c you are likely to draw him.

You mean likely to Oath him I think.  Arbiter is very important in a deck like this because many decks can make a breakthrough comeback even when you've bounced their board.  If you don't lock them out of replaying permanents or playing spells, you're still very much at risk.  I'm happy Oathing him up v. just about any deck and hardcasting him is pretty straightforward (Island, Orchard, Sol Ring, basically).  He's probably one of the best cards in my Tyrant Oath lists because he is so versatile, slows the opponent, blocks Fish creatures, even pitches to FoW, and many other reasons.  There's a more detailed explanation in Malhavoc's thread when I started using Grand Arbiter last summer. 

-BPK
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"It seems like a normal Monk deck with all the normal Monk cards.  And then the clouds divide...  something is revealed in the skies."
policehq
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2007, 01:42:14 am »

Have you tested Intuition? I really like this set-up for an engine:
Intuition ->
Life from the Loam
Library of Alexandria
Lonely Sandbar/Strip Mine

I think you could probably drop black all together (unless you want to add Yawgmoth's Will et al.) for room. Intuition acts as a tutor (Demonic Tutor) and complements your draw spells (to set back the loss of Skeletal Scrying); it is particularly good with Deep Analysis.

Grand Arbiter IV is not needed to help the lock when the maindeck has Chalice of the Void.

-hq
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Balamor
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2007, 11:38:52 am »

This is how im going to run it

// Land: 16
4  Forbidden Orchard
2  Flooded Strand
2  Polluted Delta
4  Tropical Island
1  Underground Sea
1  Island
1  Tolarian Academy
1  Library of Alexandria
// Artifact mana: 8
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Black Lotus
1  Mana Crypt
1  Sol Ring
// Creatures: 3
2  Tidespout Tyrant
1  Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
// Draw: 10
1  Ancestral Recall
3  Thirst for Knowledge
2  Deep Analysis
4  Impulse
// Tutors: 2
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Cunning Wish
// The Core: 4
4  Oath of Druids
// Protections: 12
4  Chalice of the Void
4  Mana Drain
4  Force of Will
// Tools: 4
1  Repeal
1  Time Walk
1  Yawgmoth's Will
1  Echoing Truth

Thanks for the advice, still not sure if Grand Arbitor is going to stay, but i like his style so ill probably just end up leaving him in.
Cards i added...
Repeal - How could i forget?!?!
Cunning Wish - Added for brokeness factor

Thanks for the help, comments and advise everyone!

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