U/W Landstill in 07

[Shock Wave]

Ancestral Vision over Standstill. Both are absolutely awful in my opinion, but Vision might be better, both are investments over time, but Vision still lets you play your Meddling Mages so you don't have to wait for your opponent to go EOT seven cards? Brainstorm, chuck three sir.

You can't really compare Ancestral Vision to Standstill in any way other than to say that they are potential card investments. Playing AV allows your opponent to continue playing spells without any consideration. I agree that it has better synergy with Meddling Mage, but since AV is almost certainly terrible, and Standstill is not, I don't think it is an issue worth debating. If we take Standstill out of Landstill, we're talking about a totally different deck with a totally different flow, which probably belongs in another thread.

Also, Landstill loves when you wait until it accumulates 7 cards before breaking a Standstill. That's often a sure way to lose yourself the game when playing against the deck.

I'm not sure U/W traditional Landstill is the way to go anymore. A slow plodded control deck might just flop.

If anything, U/W Landstill may fail because white is very weak. Landstill in general is a very capable archetype.

[DuKeLiO]

If anything, U/W Landstill may fail because white is very weak. Landstill in general is a very capable archetype.

Really landstill do not need a second color for the maindeck. You can play a very competitive maindeck without any non-blue card. The second color is only a support color for the sideboard beacuse it don't weak your manabase and you will have more options available for the sideboard. Also with a second color you can use Engineered Explosives better (that I think is a very versatile and almost never dead card and the kind of removal you need).


The problem with this kind of Landstill is that you maindeck very weaks cards like Swords to Plowshares that will not be good anymore. Today I see very few DSC and the number of Oaths decks is also decreasing. Also Chain of Vapour is a powerful card that you weak for every no-land permanent than you add to the deck (and aside of Standstill of course). So Meddling Mage is a weak card in this kind of deck. If you want to use it you must build another deck.
One of the flaw of Ancestral Vision is that it is "MisDirectionable", the opponent has plenty of time for scroll for MisD and waiting for the counterwar in your upkeep and you will be tapped (winning or losing the counterwar) when he untap on his turn to destroy you.

[Shock Wave]

Really landstill do not need a second color for the maindeck. You can play a very competitive maindeck without any non-blue card. The second color is only a support color for the sideboard beacuse it don't weak your manabase and you will have more options available for the sideboard. Also with a second color you can use Engineered Explosives better (that I think is a very versatile and almost never dead card and the kind of removal you need).

I would argue that Landstill is a much better deck with red as a supporting colour. Red doesn't force you to run any "dead cards" before sideboarding, and gives you very powerful sideboard options that blue cannot compare with. Engineered Explosives are terrible in this deck. What are you using them to destroy? You can only set them for 2 at the most, so what threats do they remove that Fire/Ice or Chain of Vapor cannot deal with?

[ketchupgun]

Engineered Explosives are terrible in this deck. What are you using them to destroy? You can only set them for 2 at the most, so what threats do they remove that Fire/Ice or Chain of Vapor cannot deal with?

I would make an arguement for EE, blowing up tokens (esp ETW) (which albeit Echoing Truth handles) but also all of your oppoents moxen (though they would theortectially still get one tap out of them). EE @0,1,2 (as are the limited colours here) take care of plenty in Vintage...(ie: oaths, bobs, welders, moxen, erayos, jittes just to name a few off the top of my head)

Now mind you, running Nev Disk+ManaDrain does that and more, only slower.

What ever happened to Powder Keg? It seemed to me it was on the outs as I was getting into magic.

[Sean Ryan]

Why run Disk or EE when you can just run Null Rod?  Losing the FActory activation is a small price to pay for shutting off artifact mana when playing against Drains or Combo.  Combined with Strip/Waste (backed up by Crucible) and /stiffle you have a strong prison element.

What other permanants are you really concerneed with?  Jotun Grunt is the only creature that Fire/Ice doesn't kill by itself, and the other monsters are better dealt with bounce anyway.

Is anyone running Arcane Lab in their SB?  I would probally stick with Chalice if I had to choose between the two but combo can be tough.

Sean

[wethepeople]

Is anyone running Arcane Lab in their SB?  I would probally stick with Chalice if I had to choose between the two but combo can be tough.

When provided access to white, I think it'd be a far better choice to run Rule of Law. Although Rule of Law does the exact same thing as Arcane Laboratory, the fact that it can't be taken out via Red Elemental Blast (or Pyroblast, for that matter) is very significant when trying to dispose of it.

[Crankster]

Sorry for posting the list again, but it's relevant to my post.
MAINDECK:60
Mana Base:26
4xTundra
2xFlooded Strand
2xPolluted Delta
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Faerie Conclave
4x Wasteland
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
2x Island
1x Plains

Draw:9
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
1x Ancestral Recall

combo/Removal:20
4x Force of Will
3x Prohibit
3x Mana Leak
2x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshare
2x Nev's Disk
1x Balance
1x Crucible of Worlds

Wins:5
1x Decree of Justice
4x Meddling Mage


Maindeck white cards:
4x Swords to plowshares
4x Meddling mage
1x Decree of justice
1x Balance

These are all very very good cards, but I can’t help but wonder about other splashes worth considering. Given the low amount of stax not splashing another color seems foolish, at least that’s the way I see it.
If we work from the mono-u skeleton suggested in this thread we have 10 slots for splashing. Black could give you confidant, duress and tutoring power. Not really as good as white. Red is interesting for blood moon, this would force less non-basics. You would also get blasts out of the board. It could be interesting against gifts decks. Green splash seems like a no-go, maybe a better deckbuilder than me could prove me wrong on the green?

[Phele]

4xTundra
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Faerie Conclave
4x Wasteland
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine

(...)

Red is interesting for blood moon, this would force less non-basics. You would also get blasts out of the board. It could be interesting against gifts decks. Green splash seems like a no-go, maybe a better deckbuilder than me could prove me wrong on the green?

First of all let me say that I really appreciate this thread and the efforts to make landstill viable again and thanks to Meddling Mage and Decree of Justice White is definately something to think about as a splash color.

But your last post confuses me. Bloodoon doesnt work in a deck that uses manlands for the win and heavily rely on other utility lands as well.

I also would think that Green as a splash color gives you many interesting possibilitys. Crop Rotation, Life from the Loam or Fastbond could find places. I also like to think about an Oath sideboard. When you look a the last ICBM Oath list do they seem to transform to a Landstill with Oath Kill after boarding with some success.

[DuKeLiO]

Really landstill do not need a second color for the maindeck. You can play a very competitive maindeck without any non-blue card. The second color is only a support color for the sideboard beacuse it don't weak your manabase and you will have more options available for the sideboard. Also with a second color you can use Engineered Explosives better (that I think is a very versatile and almost never dead card and the kind of removal you need).

I would argue that Landstill is a much better deck with red as a supporting colour. Red doesn't force you to run any "dead cards" before sideboarding, and gives you very powerful sideboard options that blue cannot compare with. Engineered Explosives are terrible in this deck. What are you using them to destroy? You can only set them for 2 at the most, so what threats do they remove that Fire/Ice or Chain of Vapor cannot deal with?

You can destroy Oath, moxen, fish creatures, neddles, seal of cleansing waiting for your factorys be active, counterbalances and also you can remove a bunch of goblins tokens. I think it is a good flexible removal for game1. Also I run 3 Null Rod in the sideboard against gifts or combo for the substituion, but for the first game I believe EE are more versatile in any field with a heavy infestation of Gifts and combo.

[Shock Wave]

Really landstill do not need a second color for the maindeck. You can play a very competitive maindeck without any non-blue card. The second color is only a support color for the sideboard beacuse it don't weak your manabase and you will have more options available for the sideboard. Also with a second color you can use Engineered Explosives better (that I think is a very versatile and almost never dead card and the kind of removal you need).

I would argue that Landstill is a much better deck with red as a supporting colour. Red doesn't force you to run any "dead cards" before sideboarding, and gives you very powerful sideboard options that blue cannot compare with. Engineered Explosives are terrible in this deck. What are you using them to destroy? You can only set them for 2 at the most, so what threats do they remove that Fire/Ice or Chain of Vapor cannot deal with?

You can destroy Oath, moxen, fish creatures, neddles, seal of cleansing waiting for your factorys be active, counterbalances and also you can remove a bunch of goblins tokens. I think it is a good flexible removal for game1. Also I run 3 Null Rod in the sideboard against gifts or combo for the substituion, but for the first game I believe EE are more versatile in any field with a heavy infestation of Gifts and combo.

Landstill absolutely annihilates Oath. Fish runs Null Rod, so having EE against them is pretty awful. I have no idea why you would be worried about Seal of Cleansing, which is a very minor annoyance. If a Counterbalance resolves, you're pretty screwed, EE is not going to be helpful. Your last sentence does not make any sense. You say that you have 3 Null Rod in the sideboard for gifts and combo, but then in the next part of your sentence, you say that in a heavy gifts/combo field, EE is more versatile (!?). If EE is more useful than Null Rod against Gifts and Combo, why would you bother running Null Rod at all?

[Sean Ryan]

Dukelio,

Ok, are you saying that the gains of running Disk outweigh the costs?  One of those costs being not able to run Null Rod?  Are you also saying that instead of Disk, EE is more versatile in a meta of Gifts & Long?  Last time I checked those two decks couldn't care less about EE or Disk.  So if we are assuming a meta with say 40-50% Gifts /Long, then choosing either Disk or EE is dogmatic to say the least, bordering on stupidity.  That is why I think Null Rod/Chalice is much more relavant and competitive in the current metagame.  It's not Disk that I miss by running Null Rod, but Tormds Crypt.  I was actually testing a lone Crypt with 3 Rods for a short while.  The only thing that makes running Rod hurt is the obvious loss of factory activations, but also Jotun Grunt because he survives Fire/Ice.  Against OAth you already have Bounce, Stiffle, Fire/Ice backed up by your counter magic.  Null Rod also keeps the Top from making Counterbalance a real lock, something else to consider if its a prevalent threat. 

Shockwave,

What bounce suite to you run?  Echoing Truth seems like a must since Empty the Warrens has hit the metagme by storm Is it even worth while to run Chain of Vapor at all?  It used to serve as an answer to Chalice @2 but Stax is less and less a threat.  At 1 mana it is about as effecient as you get and this seems to be the strongest reason to include it.  What are your thoughts on Trickbind as maindeck material?

Sean

       

[DuKeLiO]

Yeah, it was a typo mistake. It would be "without" instead of "with". Sorry. The sentence actually reads:

Also I run 3 Null Rod in the sideboard against gifts or combo for the substituion, but for the first game I believe EE are more versatile in any field without a heavy infestation of Gifts and combo.

Maybe the problem is that I play some tournaments with no proxies allowed, and in these tourneys I play versus random jank. Also not all the Fish list run Null Rod, some run Chalice of the Void Instead, and maybe EE can be poor against the Fish's Null Rods but Null Rod itself is a dead card. I repeat, if I was playing on a Gifts infested meta I would run Null Rod maindeck, but for other kind of meta I prefer playing between Disk or EE depending in the number of MWS.dec. Also the list I run has 4 Spell Snare and 3 EE instead of 4 Fire/Ice and 4 Null Rod. I believe the correspondence isn't EE for Null Rod, really I play EE for Fire/Ice and Spell Snare for Null Rod. Obviously I wouldn't can run a list with EE and Null Rod, but I can play a list with Fire/Ice as removal Spell and Spell Snare as utility instead of Null Rod. Spell Snare is really good against Drain-decks, and also counter a lot of Fish threats.

[ketchupgun]

I'm in the camp of using a spell snare or two. I've been testing it...but sometimes I just think, in more competitive metas, why not just main deck REB/Pryoblast (if splashing red).

A card I've begun testing is Shadow of Doubt. It's great for stopping fetchlands and all the tutors running around, let alone gifts, intution....+ the cantrip!

The idea comes from playing Sullivan Solution.
I haven't been hindered by the UUcc as we're already equipped to play ManaDrain.

Has anyone else tested this card?