ErkBek
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A strong play.
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« on: April 19, 2007, 06:57:39 pm » |
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I figured with my last tournament coming up in less than a week, I might as well go ahead and release a deck that I worked on for a while. Its a little outdated, but I still feel its a strong contender.
-----------------------The Bazaar Storm. by Eric Becker---------------------------
Robert Vroman has stated countless times that Bazaar is the best draw engine in magic, but he has never mentioned that it is also one of the best Yawgmoth’s Will enablers in the game, only topped by Gifts Ungiven and Intuition. Bazaar is unique though, it lets you see more cards to optimize a hand meanwhile, loading your graveyard for a lethal Yawg Will. Surprisingly though, no mainsteam deck has been able to combine Bazaar and Will together effectively in one deck.
An optimal hand varies in different matchups, thus Bazaar’s filtering effect can be invaluable. In general there are 4 types of matchups in vintage; Drain Combo, Ritual Combo, Aggro Disruption, and Workshop Prison. One of the things that makes vintage such a difficult format to build decks in is that it is tough to pierce the defenses or break down the offenses of each one of these archetypes. To make matters worse, certain hands that crush one strategy can be dominated by another. Here are 2 examples of I mean by this
1) Running a 5C manabase in Long results in better games vs. Drain and Ritual combo at the cost of the aggro and prison matchups.
2) An opening hand of Mox, Mana Crypt, Land, MisD, Blue Card, Gifts, XXX on the draw will likely dominate the control mirror or simply put a lot of pressure on a combo deck, but would get crushed by Uba Stax opening with a Chalice @ 0 or a Null Rod.
So what am I getting at? Bazaar helps minimize the risk of #2 occurring since you will get to see more cards and its filtering effect allows you to run cards that would typically be associated with the trade-off in situation #1.
So enough magic theory, onto a decklist…..
The BS version 1.1 played on June 18th, 2006
Land 14 4 Bazaar 4 Polluted Delta 2 Usea 1 Trop 1 Swamp 2 Bayou
Accel 17 5 Mox 1 Lotus 1 Mana Crypt 1 LED 1 Petal 4 Dark Ritual 4 Cabal Ritual 0 Sol Ring 0 Mana Vault
Protecttion 11 4 Duress 4 Xantid 2 Cabal Therapy 1 Chain of Vapor
Stuff 18 1 Demonic Consult 3 Infernal Tutor 1 Will 3 Tendrils 1 Demonic 1 Vamp 2 Brainstorm 1 Ancestral 1 Necro 4 Dark Confidant 0 Yawgmoth’s Bargain 0 Draw7’s
SB 15 4 squee 3 loam 1 Island 2 e truth 1 massacre 4 Leyline
The deck was basically a straight up application of the above theory; optimize your hand win through whatever your opponent can bring at you. Infernal Tutor was a perfect fit in the deck since you keep a tight hand size with Bazaar and it also leads to the play of Cabal Ritual -> Infernal Tutor -> Yawg Will, all for 5 mana.
Unfortunately, I don’t get to play much magic when building this deck, so my sideboard was untested and didn’t work as I hoped. I won’t go into why it didn’t work now, but I’ll discuss it later.
At the tournament, I went a disappointing 3-3 winning my first 2 rounds and then going 1-3 from there out. It was over 6 months ago, but I believe I played vs. the following
ICBM Oath W (duress over MisD) 5C Stax W URB Discard Fish L SS L Slaver or Gifts W ICBM Oath L (duress over MisD)
The tournament was quite a learning experience. Every single match I lost was to a discard spell/effect, something that I neglected to address in my deck building theory. Here’s what my losses came from
3 Hymn to Tourach 2 Timely Duresses 1 Ravenous Rats!
Yes, you read that right, Eric Becker lost a vintage game to Ravenous Rats. Basically what happened there was I was backed into a play of playing Infernal Tutor with Hellbent to grab a Yawgmoth’s Will and then pass the turn. With my opponent already casting 3 or 4 discard spells throughout the game, I thought my Will would be safe, but he untapped and cast a topdecked rats!
I learned a lot that day. I gained a new understanding for the tradeoffs taken when building combo decks. While this deck had a pristine matchup vs. decks with numerous counters, it got badly hosed by discard effects since it kept a tight hand that often times had only a single real threat in it. That day really got me thinking and on the drive home I had the idea for adding Misdirection to IT, which ended up evolving into Pitch Long.
3 weeks and 1 tournament later Pitch Long was created, and the BS was buried for 5 months. I never really liked playing Pitch Long all that much in a tournament setting. Even though the deck was arguably the format’s most powerful deck, I missed the consistency that was available in IT. Pitch Long’s inconsistency came from burning multiple cards to play a spell. For example, Ritual -> Grim Tutor or Force + Blue card. The problem I was running into, was far too often was when these cards didn’t come in pairs you where left with dead cards in your hand.
Pitch Long tears apart tournaments when these pairs come together in your opening hands in the right balance. However, these pairs just weren’t coming together for me. Once you start mulliganing with the deck, the last thing you want is to see FoW or MisD. The chances of putting together that combo along with Ritual + threat really begin to slide as the opening hand gets smaller and smaller.
When I built Pitch Long, I loved how efficient the deck felt. It dumped extra cards that you didn’t need to protect your spells instead of dicking around with duress. Force of Will was better vs. stax and the deck also featured a much improved game vs. UW fish since chant was nowhere as scary now that I had Pitch counters. However, in my first few months with the deck, I never realized this power vs. inconsistency trade-off. This problem, combined with the shift in the metagame is largely why I think that many people have made the switch back to 2.5 color Grim Long.
The BS is about as different of a deck as you could get from Pitch Long. Instead of trying to rush out its threats, it takes its time, optimizing its hand, and puts together a hand that can efficiently deal with multiple counters. I was running into one major problem that had to be addressed, this deck was far too exposed to graveyard hate for both pre and post sideboarded games.
After many hours of goldfishing, testing, and two-fisting I finally found a build that I was happy with. Typically in game 1’s I had no problem winning over tormods crypt if I was able to adjust my strategy early enough in the game. My sideboard looked like a mess, but I loved it. Basically I was able to board into a custom tendrils deck for each particular matchup. Here was the list I played 5 months after the original.
Mana Lands 11 4 Polluted Delta 2 Bloodstained Mire 2 Underground Sea 1 Bayou 1 Trop 1 Swamp
Mana Accel 16 1 Black Lotus 1 LED 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Pearl 4 Dark Ritual 4 Cabal Ritual 0 Mox Pearl, Sol Ring, Mana Vault
Protection 9 4 Duress 4 Xantid 1 Chain of Vapor
Business 24 4 Bazaar 3 Night's Whisper 3 Infernal Tutor 3 Tendrils of Agony 2 Brainstorm 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Necropotence 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Time Twister 1 Tinker 1 Memory Jar 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vamp Tutor 1 Demonic Consultation
(for a generic metagame) Sideboard 15 2 Brainstorm 1 Mox Pearl 1 Sol Ring 2 Island 2 Massacre 2 Repeal 2 Rebuild 3 Tormod’s Crypt
(for a metagame with lots of ichorid) -3 Tormod’s Crypt -1 Island +4 Leyline (or 3 Leyline, 1 Planar Void)
The deck’s goal is to play games out this way, but in reality they rarely do…..
Turn 1 – Night’s Whisper Turn 2 – Bazaar (activate), Duress/Xantid Turn 3 – Activate Bazaar, Duress/Xantid (if needed), Cabal Ritual -> Infernal Tutor -> Yawgmoth’s Will->Win
Bazaar offers endless lines of play, giving the deck a great deal of flexibility.
Here are some much needed explanations for some of the choices.
4 Mox, 1 Mana Crypt, 8 Rituals, 0 Sol Ring – After much testing, this is the best configuration that I found for acceleration. In game 1, Sol Ring is just terrible since it doesn’t help play any spells. 5 Moxes (+1 mana crypt) is just too many, while 3 is not enough. Moxen are generally better than Sol Ring b/c they power out turn 1 Night’s Whisper. 8 Rituals are played since they power out everything and make 4-6 mana on Yawg Will turns. Mana Vault simply sucks in here.
3 Infernal Tutor, 1 DT, 1 VT, 1 Demoic Consult, 0 Iseal, 0 MT – 6-7 Tutors has proven to be the right number for most combo decks. Infernal Tutor is much better than Grim Tutor in here since it saves 2 mana in the Yawg Will kill, plus since the deck typically keeps a small hand, if can effectively use this card. Consult is simply amazing in any Storm deck that can actually use it. Running 3 tendrils justifies its inclusion.
3 Night’s Whisper – One of my favorite cards in storm combo, it finally found a home here. NW is a great turn 1 or turn 2 play to get you ahead in any matchup in card advantage, allowing you to use Bazaar of Baghdad without burying yourself. After playing Dark Confidant in here for so long I found Whisper to be better since it allowed you to play more like a pure tendrils deck when facing graveyard hate. Night’s Whisper also fit perfectly in with the new custom tendrils deck sideboard plan. The main problem with confidant was that he didn’t start netting you cards soon enough and if he was killed before I drew any cards with him, I was screwed.
2 Brainstorm – Brainstorm isn’t the best of cards in here. Bazaar usually does everything you want brainstorm to do in your game 1’s. Bazaar digs and filters multiple times and isn’t affected by Chalice at 1. Playing right through chalice is huge, I can’t stress it enough. Generally, that’s the card that actually stops a combo player from just Shop decks. Spheres buy time, but chalice can stop a combo player from even playing their brainstorms and topdeck tutors to find their answers. Lastly, fetching out a blue source early, especially vs. shop decks, is a big no-no when you play such a shaky manabase.
3 Tendrils – This goes along with the ability to just turn into a pure tendrils deck in the face of GY hate in game 1 and the custom tendrils deck post board.
Necro, Twister, Jar, Tinker, but no Bargain? – I really don’t care for bargain in this deck. I feel that most of the time Bargain backs a player into keeping hands that blow its 2 best cards to attempt casting bargain on turn 1 or 2, only to meet a FoW about 60% of the time. Also, Bargain is not a card you want to draw in the midgame or even the late game. You typically don’t have a bunch of disposable rituals to burn to cast a bargain. In this deck if you spent 3 cards to play a bargain and it gets countered, you might as well scoop. Necro is redic in this deck as in all storm decks. The draw7’s are really strong with a full set of Xantids, 3 Tendrils, and the 4 Bazaars makes them draw9’s. In the face of GY hate or heavy discard in game 1, these bombs can dig me out of a sticky situation.
So how’s the custom tendrils deck sideboard work?
This is my favorite part about the deck. In game 1, Bazaar gives you flexibility vs. every deck out there, but most importantly is a Yawg Will enabler. Post board though, the GY hate comes in and your Yawg Will kill isn’t so hot anymore. Thus, in many matchups, I board out Bazaar of Baghdad. You shift from a Yawg Will deck to a pure tendrils deck. Here’s a quick summary of my SB strategies.
Meandeck Gifts (favorable pre and post board) -4 Bazaar -2 Infernal Tutor -1 Chain of Vapor +2 Brainstorm +1 Island +1 Mox Pearl +1 Sol Ring +2 Tormod’s Crypt Against ritual gifts I’d cut 1 of the Xantids for a 3rd Tormod’s Crypt. Since ritual gifts is faster, its a more difficult matchup.
Slaver (favorable pre and post board) -4 Bazaar -2 Infernal Tutor -1 Cabal Rit +2 Brainstorm +1 Island +1 Mox Pearl +1 Sol Ring +2 Repeal
Stax (favorable pre and post board vs. most builds) -4 Xantid -4 Duress +2 Repeal +2 Island +1 Sol Ring +1 Mox Pearl +2 Rebuild
UW fish (Favorable pre and post board) -1 Cabal Rit -1 Mana Crypt -1 Mox Ruby -1 Tinker -1 Jar -1 Brainstorm +2 Massacre +2 Repeal +2 Island
SS (really unfavorable and still pretty bad) I’m not totally sure what to do in this matchup. Game 1 is just terrible because all their disruption is awesome vs. you. I think I’d go with something like my Slaver boarding plan.
Ichorid (unfavorable….depends) -4 Xantid -4 Duress +1 Island +3 Tormod’s Crypt (or 4 Leyline) +2 Repeal +1 Sol Ring +1 Island / Pearl
Long (unfavorable and unfavorable) -4 Xantid -1 Chain -2 Bazaar +3 Tormod’s +2 BS +1 Pearl +1 Sol Ring
I piloted the above build to a top 8 at a 45 man event at Pastimes in Chicago a few months ago. I lost in the t8 do to some very unlucky circumstances.
So there you have it. A deck that has favorable matchups vs. the big 3: Stax, Slaver, and Gifts. However, it comes at the cost of the SS and Long matchups (which are less commonly played decks).
Give this deck a try, you may like it.
-Eric Becker Team GWS
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Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
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Where the fuck are my pants?
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2007, 07:30:14 pm » |
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I've said it before, but this thing looks like a complete pile on paper. In action, somehow it just destroys a lot of decks. I liked how you put Bazaars in your original PL sideboard in Virginia. Bazaar is amazing at cutting out the crap from your hand. Plus, it has the GWS requirement of having a restricted card that nobody would ever cut (mox pear and Sol ringl) in the sideboard.
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InfinityCircuit
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2007, 08:18:57 pm » |
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Really interesting decklist! I was always curious about the deck ever since it was mentioned in passing in a tournament report but never unveiled.
I have a couple of questions:
1) The 2:3 ratio of Brainstorms to Night's Whisper. You have 6 fetchlands to maximize the power of Brainstorm. It seems silly not to run more to maximize your ability to optimize your hand on turn one. 2) Cutting Mox Pearl. You mention that an ideal start for this deck starts off with Night's Whisper. Therefore, why did you decide to cut a Moxen that allows you to power out Night's Whisper? 3) Is it really worth it to run blue in the main? This may seem like an absurd question, but ever since the builds of KI.TT that ran blue in the sideboard, it seems like it might be worth it here as well. Needless to say it adds a lot of flexibility, but I wonder if it might be easier to just be more stable and run straight black/green. 4) It's too bad the card disadvantage of Bazaar makes Culling the Weak a poor play here, as it would otherwise be very interesting.
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ErkBek
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A strong play.
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2007, 08:25:36 pm » |
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I'll get to InfinityCircuit's Qs later cause I'm on the run. I forgot to post this in the primer.......  I got timeshifted. That's what the "modify" button is for. -Jacob
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 05:16:28 pm by Jacob Orlove »
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Team GWS
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TimDeluxeIt
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2007, 10:14:41 am » |
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YES!!!!!
Verbal warning for spam. -Jcob
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 05:19:31 pm by Jacob Orlove »
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GWS: Great White Shark.
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RThomas
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I got the key to Gramercy Park
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2007, 08:33:52 pm » |
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YES!!!!!
It has been a while since I've been here, but I thought unproductive comments like this one were under our maturity levels. I suppose things slip through the cracks. Verbal warning to you, too. The rules go to the trouble of saying "If you are not a moderator, don't try to police the boards for rules violations." for a reason. If you see a problematic post, report it, and we'll deal with it. Complaining in the thread or vigilante moderating is at best spam, and at worst leads to flame wars and destroyed threads. -JacobDo you believe that the decision trees Bazaar forces you into makes this deck more difficult to play? Or do the advantages in card parity make up for a misread here and there?
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 05:29:09 pm by Jacob Orlove »
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moxpearl
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2007, 10:58:27 am » |
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Thanks for the new deck idea. The deck looks like it would be fun to play and see in action.
Some questions on the sideboarding: If you expect Ichorid in your metagame (and I imagine that deck is only going to get more popular post Future Sight), then let's assume you put 4 Leylines in your board. What would your SB strategies look like against Long and Gifts? Would you bring in Leylines even though they're somewhat useless if they're not in your opening hand?
Even if you don't like Bargain maindeck, don't you at least think it should be boarded in when you prepare for the graveyard hate games 2 and 3 and you bring in solring and mox#5? You could almost argue the same with Desire.
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ErkBek
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A strong play.
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2007, 05:56:52 pm » |
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1) The 2:3 ratio of Brainstorms to Night's Whisper. You have 6 fetchlands to maximize the power of Brainstorm. It seems silly not to run more to maximize your ability to optimize your hand on turn one. 2) Cutting Mox Pearl. You mention that an ideal start for this deck starts off with Night's Whisper. Therefore, why did you decide to cut a Moxen that allows you to power out Night's Whisper?
These questions kinda fit together. The reason I've gone with 3 NW is basically because I rarely ever want to see 2 in the same game, they simply tie up your mana too much if you are playing 2 and still trying to go off protected on turn 3 or 4. Brainstorm is marginal in this deck, but its much better post board. Think of the Bazaar's and Brainstorms being grouped together as card filters (that help enable infernal tutor). Again, the same goes with brainstorm as NW. You typically don't want to be playing more than one per game. Remember that the deck has Duress and Xantid both as strong turn 1 plays. 3) Is it really worth it to run blue in the main? This may seem like an absurd question, but ever since the builds of KI.TT that ran blue in the sideboard, it seems like it might be worth it here as well. Needless to say it adds a lot of flexibility, but I wonder if it might be easier to just be more stable and run straight black/green. Blue is needed for the sideboard plan. I don't see cutting blue from this particular deck an option. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YES!!!!!
It has been a while since I've been here, but I thought unproductive comments like this one were under our maturity levels. I suppose things slip through the cracks. Do you believe that the decision trees Bazaar forces you into makes this deck more difficult to play? Or do the advantages in card parity make up for a misread here and there? He made the picture. Bazaar makes this deck much more difficult to play for sure. Combo decks already have enough decisions, discarding 3 cards can make things even more difficult. This deck is the probably one of the hardest decks play (for sure tougher than Grim Long). I did find that a number of opponents simply didn't play well against me because they had no idea what my deck did. Activating a bazaar to discard Tendrils, Mox, and Infernal Tutor will do that to them.  Some questions on the sideboarding: If you expect Ichorid in your metagame (and I imagine that deck is only going to get more popular post Future Sight), then let's assume you put 4 Leylines in your board. What would your SB strategies look like against Long and Gifts? Would you bring in Leylines even though they're somewhat useless if they're not in your opening hand?
Even if you don't like Bargain maindeck, don't you at least think it should be boarded in when you prepare for the graveyard hate games 2 and 3 and you bring in solring and mox#5? You could almost argue the same with Desire. I'd bring in Leyline always vs. Ritual gifts and vs. bad gifts and bad long players. Other than that I don't know. The sideboard would probably need a little more restructuring to fit it in. Yawg Bargain and Desire off the board aren't so hot because you can't really cut too many cards.
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Team GWS
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2007, 08:21:07 pm » |
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This has been one of the most entertaining combo decks I have ever had the chance to pilot, discarding cards for Threshold and Hellbent is just so much fun, and Squee, Goblin Nabob and Deep Analysis give the deck some umph, with Deep Analysis being the best of the two since it can just be hard cast.
It's cool to see a new and original deck that works, I was getting real bored with Gifts, Fish and Ichorid.
Edit: I'd look into Crop Rotation and Fastbond, tutoring for a Bazaar of Baghdad and Tolarian Academy is pretty hot and you can get a lot of extra land drops of Fastbond with Bazaar and D7's.
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« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 08:26:29 pm by BreathWeapon »
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Smmenen
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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2007, 05:10:54 pm » |
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At SCG Roanoake we sat down and played about 10 games of MDG versus your combo deck (you had a different name for it at the time).
I put the deck together in December based upon what I saw and it ended up looking very close to what you had here, with some slight ratio differences.
Our testing in Roanoke did not reflect your conclusion that MDG was favorable. It did suggest that MDG couldn't control your combo deck, but that's true of most decks now. I won roughly half of our games - and most of those wins were because of an early turn 1-3 kill with Gifts. Also, I only ran 1 Dark Ritual, as most MDG lists do since ELD included it (and others).
While it is a good idea to find ways to combo Bazaar with Hellbent, Cabal Rit, Swarm + Therapy, and other synergies, this deck idea has no real staying power in Vintage. It's clock is too slow and it is too janky to be good. In fact, it's probably worse than the High Tide deck I came up with early last year, but never played in tournament.
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ErkBek
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A strong play.
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2007, 06:37:11 pm » |
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Our testing in Roanoke did not reflect your conclusion that MDG was favorable. I won roughly half of our games - and most of those wins were because of an early turn 1-3 kill with Gifts. There is a direct correlation between these 2 statements. I lost because you drew some really fast combo hands for gifts. Seriously, you played 1 merchant scroll in 10 games because you didn't have to tutor any cards up, they were always in your hand! I felt going 50-50 with those hands was pretty good, no?
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2007, 08:29:04 pm » |
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One of the interesting things that Bazaar of Baghdad can do besides build Threshold and enable Hellbent is draw into a DDAY stack, and considering Street Wraith does the same thing and Draw 7's are undesirable, I think the deck could be rebuilt in order to take advantage of Bazaar of Baghdad to enable both Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual and DDAY with Street Wraith being an auto-include that increases Threshold.
This is sort of Proxie 5ish,
4 Bazaar of Baghdad 4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Unmask 4 Duress
1 Necropotence 4 Doomsday 4 Infernal Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Imperial Seal
1 Timetwister (engine card) 1 Ancestral Recall (engine card)
1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual 4 Cabal Ritual 4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus 1 Lion's Eye Diamond 1 Lotus Petal 1 Chrome Mox 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Ruby
4 City of Brass 4 Gemstone Mine
See below for stack descriptions.
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 10:25:48 pm by BreathWeapon »
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ErkBek
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A strong play.
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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2007, 08:35:53 pm » |
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It's legal at the moment, but I figure the deck can just use Bazaar of Baghdad, Infernal Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond, Yawgmoth's Will, Tendrils of Agony as it's stack and then just sort of go from there.
Question. What's the doomsday stack that you are typically using? I'm not seeing how to get to a large enough storm.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2007, 10:06:29 pm » |
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It didn't work at first, but I figured it out;
Turn one Bazaar of Baghdad, optimize the hand and pass. Turn two City of Brass, Dark Ritual, Doomsday
Stack the following, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Lotus Petal, Yawgmoth's Will, Tendrils of Agony and then activate Bazaar of Baghdad, draw Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall, UUU, Draw 3 cards, Lotus Petal, B, Yawgmoth's Will, replay Black Lotus and Lotus Petal, Tendrils of Agony for 9 storm.
That's as close as I can get the stack to a kill, so it's going to need to get another storm from some where, shouldn't be impossible with a second ritual or an Unmask.
There could be other stacks out there involving a Bazaar of Baghdad on top, but I imagine it would take Black Lotus, Night Whispers, Mind's Desire and Beacon of Destruction.
I know there has to be a stack out there, even if it's something like Black Lotus, Predict, Tendrils of Agony, Dark Ritual and Yawgmoth's Will or something with Ideas Unbound.
I'm sure it's out there, I just can't figure it out.
Changes to the above deck made because it didn't work the first time, and I think there is some weird interaction with Timetwister that results in a win but I don't have it figured out quite yet.
Edit: If the deck hits 2 cards in hand with 5 cards in the stack, it can go infinite with Bazaar of Baghdad drawing Black Lotus and Timetwister off the top of the deck and drawing the same hand again and again and again, where if the last two cards are an accelerant and a Tendril the deck just wins.
So, there is a pile with Bazaar of Baghdad on top, Bazaar of Baghdad, Black Lotus, Timetwister, Lotus Petal, Tendrils of Agony, and as long as the deck has 3 other cards in its hand it just goes infinite, and the deck can cheat the hand size with a Street Wraith for enough iterations to guarantee the storm count.
Man, DDAY is some broken ass shit, fuck Grim Tutor.
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« Last Edit: April 22, 2007, 10:36:24 pm by BreathWeapon »
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nataz
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Mighty Mighty Maine-Tone
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2007, 10:26:11 pm » |
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There are multiple stacks w/ Bazaar of Baghdad and Doomsday that range anywhere from 16-25 dmg, and work with 1,2 (lands), 0-3 cards in hand, ect. You just have to get creative.
Minds Desire is a good place to start.
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I will write Peace on your wings and you will fly around the world
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2007, 10:38:50 pm » |
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Mind's Desire doesn't work, all of the infinite recursion piles involve Timetwister in the 2 or 3 card hand size range, see above.
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Almighty
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« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2007, 12:06:48 am » |
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The trick with Doomsday is that passing the turn after casting it is an amazingly risky play. I've played Doomsday for something like 3 years, and my survey of the currently popular decks leads me to believe that passing the turn after Doomsday is almost a bad play. While none of the stacks you mention involve passing the turn, I'd expect that winning the game on turn 1-2 to be fairly rare, given that Bazaar does not produce mana. The only thing you have to stop them are hand attacks (Duress and Unmask). Consider an opposing Draw 7. If your opponent casts Time Walk, they will probably win.
In any of those stacks you presented, none of them involved Unmask or Duress. If your opponent has a counterspell, you will lose. If your opponent drops a lock piece before you get going, you will probably lose, considering you have no way to remove it. Even a Wasteland sets you back a great way.
I thought I would share that Brainstorm is one of the best cards in Doomsday, far and away. I'd reccomend it over any cantrip besides Time Walk, which also isn't in the deck. Walk is the single best cantrip for Doomsday. Another amazing card is Lion's Eye Diamond, which I will defend to the death in any deck that uses Will. Remember that LED beats Root Maze as well, which while uncommonly played, will beat your current build of the deck almost 100 percent of the time.
Here are some alternative stacks:
Brainstorm, Lotus, Ritual, Will, Tendrils. This requires 2 cards in hand. Twister, Lotus, Ritual, Will, Tendrils. This requires seven cards between your library, hand and graveyard
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My experience with the deck leads me to beleive that running a standard Doomsday pile (IE the old Ancestral, Lotus, Ritual, Desire, Beacon) will almost always be sub optimal. I have won with probably over 50 different stacks in 100 different game situations. There is always a situaltionally best stack to find and it is your job as a player to figure out what it is in the game.
While I appreciate any innovation, I think that you are taking this deck in the wrong direction by addding Doomsday to it. By all means prove me wrong, but I have a strong hunch that Doomsday makes this deck worse than before. Good luck regardless.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2007, 10:17:09 am » |
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You could be right, but on the other hand, DDAY is a powerful card and it is synergisticl with Bazaar; since the deck was built on the premise of using Bazaar as a means to enable it's combo pieces, I.E Infernal Tutor, it makes sense to push the deck its logical extreme, like Diminishing Return.dec did, and see whether or not it can work, I'll concern myself with whether or not it's competitive later.
While I'm certain there are a number of fascinating stacks, the most important stacks to figure out are the ones that end the game, people can build custom stacks on their own taking into account what's in their hands for themselves.
One thing I'm for certain about tho', is that the deck is just consistent, it wins on turn two a large amount of the time, and with Squee, Goblin Nabob, it can just out pace control decks. Sure, it has to deal with Wasteland and Pithing Needle, but uncounterable draw engines should come with a price after all.
It's not as if the deck is pigeon holed into DDAY either, it can just SB in more Tendrils and Warrens etc and go from there.
There's a lot some one could do with Bazaar based Tendrils, it just takes some imagination.
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