[New Deck] Oath of Korlis

[brianpk80]

Demonic effect,

Creatures that disrupt are generally better in an Oath of Ghouls deck because the Oath of Ghouls brings them back indefinitely.  A high creature count complements the deck design much more elegantly.  This is why a Waterfront Bouncer fits better than a Swords to Plowshares and why Spiketail Hatchling is often more useful in the long run than Daze.  I could see a case for including Duress but Extirpate is overkill.  Cabal Therapy is cute with creature recursion but "meh" overall.  Tormod's Crypt is good maindeck noncreature disruption IMO for this type of deck.  Also, the mass removal and things like Razormane Masticore are some of the main reasons to run Oath of Ghouls in the first place.  Oath of Ghouls doesn't die to Massacre unless your opponent both eliminates the creatures and eliminates the Oath.  If it happens, well then your deck didn't perform well and your opponent's did and that's life. 

Also FWIW if you're running Razormane Masticore then I'll assume you're playing some kind of Workshop Aggro which is a tough match for any quasi-Fish deck like Oath of Ghouls.  The best shot I made at the deck from the old Vintage Forum was based on the idea of silver bullet creatures that foiled the mid/late 2006 metagame.  The task is harder now with EtW and more diverse ideas percolating everywhere, but I still think that's the best governing principle for an OaG deck.  It's just harder to accomplish now.  So I'm content playing Druids Oath for the time being. 

-BPK

[demonic effect]

I understand that creatures do create some sort of synergy with oath of ghouls...  However, what happens when the oath gets countered, destroyed, duressed etc...? 

Additionally, it is only able to bring back one creature per turn which is why mass removal  and cards like razormane which destroy multiple creatures are still viable (multiple b/c it also attacks and is a faster clock than you will have). 

Finally, the reason creatures in general are bad is because their effects often are too slow... Jotun grunt needs a turn, dark confidant needs a turn, goblin welder needs a turn... and if not a turn, then they take mana to activate as is the case with Prodigy and wretch which limits the number of other threats that can be played where a counterspell or crypt would have worked just as well...  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that cool stuff can't occur, but with it being a creature, the opponent knows what threats they need to remove... creatures are one of the easiest threats to remove... and the deck must hope that whatever disruption is being provided is significant enough to win the game (which often it isn't)... the reason for the latter deals with the issue I was talking about earlier in terms of creatures tending to be specific hate rather than generalized hate and thus it being hard to find the right card with your slow draw engine...  its one of the reasons that tormod's crypt isn't usually maindecked but rather given a sideboard slot... if you have korlis out and I'm playing dragon and decide to deck you...  Your disruption didn't really help you etc...

This is not to say that creatures serve no purpose... but cards with effects like Meddling Mage or Jotun grunt (b/c of the creature criteria i gave making it better than wretch) are stronger than cards like Korlis (except as a life engine based upon your draw engine) and so on... Its also why the new Aven and the Orim's chant guy from the new set are being examined closely... namely b/c of the way they interract with numerous decks rather than specific ones...

[Guli]

There is nothing wrong in playing turn 1 duress and then followed by your creatures. It is no problem and is actually the whole point. Disrupt his hand with your cheap 1 mana spells and cast creatures to disrupt even more (drawing cards with this deck means more disruption). There is no rush at all. You don't have to cast island flying men and hold a force or daze to call your deck aggro/control. It is a matter of gamestrategy and taste. I believe duress and his cousins (cabal/extirpate) are very strong in type 1. I am thinking about adding unmask aswell but i don't know what to cut. Maybe remove 1 extirpate and add 2 unmask and find some place somewere else don't know. Cabal is pure synergy, stays.

'Discard' decks usually have the problem of losing to a topdecked tinker or will. Or resurect the discarded cards somehow. With extirpate you can counter vamp/mystical/seal/Personal wich is rather important. You can take a look at their hand before playing cabal and at the same time stripping his forces. Extirpate is the most dangerous black 1 mana spells if you ask me. Against other fish versions you can win the oath of Ghoul war by decreasing his creature count in his grave. It shuts down ichorid. A card this versitale and some people dare to suggest to cut it?? How rude!! 

You can call this a modern discard deck and extirpate is the reason that i am retying this. The good old days with dark ritual duress/hymn followed by ravenous rats. Hehe. Just doesn't cut it anymore. But with 8 cards that will dig and draw for you you can keep up the pressure and slowly gain more and more board control.

The oath is not the winning card in this deck. I said this many times. Oath makes this deck significantly better however you don't rely on it to win. If you counter oath my confi will get through and visa versa. Oath is card advantage. Good against control and fish(u need wretch or extirpate though)

I am starting to wonder if u ever played fish demonic effect.

[demonic effect]

There is nothing wrong in playing turn 1 duress and then followed by your creatures.

I absolutely agree...  My point is more based upon the amount of disruption that you provide, the liklihood that the creature you will play will actually disrupt my hand, and if not a disruption card but rather confidant/sylvan/oath whether or not those will be significant in terms of providing the necessary pressure...

EX..  Lets assume you are playing a deck and are on the play...  Most decks that you are 'relevant" against will either be able to play a duress of their own or be able to FoW your duress if it is going to be relevant...
    That means your turn 1 disruption plan is halted...
    Turn two, they may either hold mana to counter your dark confidant or just play a draw spell of their own (which if they do they see more cards earlier and are thus more likely to draw into more coutners etc..  )
              Either way, turn two they are ahead of you...
     Turn three, if you didn't play confidant, you are definately going to be hurting b/c they will definately have access to more mana than you (b/c of artifact mana) will probalby have drawn or tutored for a bomb by now and, if they drew, probably have the third land which is questionable with your build...  either way they probably have an advantage over you...

In other words, you require that your deck will run smoothly, which it won't, and requires certain key cards to recover, which you don't always have...  In order to find those cards, you must use a means that is slower than other decks and, in the case of Sylvan, may not be beneficial at all in terms of card advantage (unless with the combo)... 

You don't have to cast island flying men and hold a force or daze to call your deck aggro/control. It is a matter of gamestrategy and taste.

My question to you is... what do you do when your Duress is countered/duressed away and the creature that is in your hand doesn't hate the deck you are playing against?  that is effectively two turns wasted...
The reason why Fish is viable is because of its ability to play creatures EVERY turn (not rely upon disruption only for turn one something your deck doesn't do) and the fact that their creatures hit multiple decks at once... Sure, the deck may not rely upon the GY... but cards will be there and Grunt at least is a 4/4 making him a threat by himself...  As cool as wretch is he isn't as fast of a clock...  This all sums up into a nice little package that adds in a decen clock (b/c disruption occurs while the clock is being set since you play a creature and are able to disrupt) that is combined with disruption from two fronts that occur simultaneously and is thus harder to hate out b/c the disruption helps protect each other (in a manner of speaking). 

Oath of Ghouls is being looked at as a viable inclusion into fish decks... The question is not about the viability of oath, but rather about the manner of deck that should run it... Honestly, you have to show why duress/cabal therapy/extirpate are better than FoW, Misdirection, Stifle, Daze, and sometimes Mana Drain or Mana Leak and null rod... and why Korlis, and Wretch, and kataki are better than meddling mage, apprentice, grunt, etc...  Add in that fish also has 1 drops like lions, etc... for first turn pressure which becomes even more deadly with the inclusion of ninja and so on...  As for the draw engine, Fish packs BS, Confidants (as do you), and ninja vs your own confidants and sylvan (which is worse than BS since it is blue and can mana fix/find answer two turns earlier)

I mean, don't get me wrong... I've said all along that you have powerful synergies... but looking at the strengths of fish and comparing the weaknesses... I find that fish is more versatile, faster, and has a better draw engine while it packs pretty much the same weaknesses...  Granted, your deck may have stronger locks... but they require too many other cards working together off a slow draw engine and a slower clock... This combined with the fact that your hate creatures are too specific (grunt at least is a fast clock) and the inability to play disruption at the same time as a creature makes your deck have a much slowe clock and become hit or miss as to whether or not the other deck is affected (beyond the turn 1 duress... Cabal therapy is a long shot and often misses turn 1 and if you activate it turn two off your creature then it only hurts your other means of disruption while a the same time decreasing your clock (vs constant pressure by Fish via counters etc...)

If you look and realize that Fish is one of the top decks... and if you look at the threads you'll realize that these are the main reasons thats fish is able to succeed... since you don't find an effective alternative... your deck is not viable...  Granted, you may be able to beat any deck given the right cards...  But over the course of a tournament, this deck will not make it...

To revamp it, you need add in more versatile creatures, better disruption (duress still works, but it and extirpate are viable in fish decks too... and they pack a lot more disruption period... as for cabal therapy it is pretty bad unless you have oath in play but can't really be called early disruption b/c it often misses turn one (BS hides it, or its not in hand etc...) and you don't want to sacrifice a creature which is either another means of disruption or your draw engine, and replace sylvan (b/c too slow)

[Guli]

What creature is not enough disruption lol you are really making the wrong conclusions.

Child is the only creature for 1 mana that can delay a ToA turn 1. Child with Oath is a soft lock wich is more of a problem for an opposing aggro deck then you think. It even stops DC or Titan if there is enough life. You can not stop storm with 1 card. The best way to fight combo is by bits and peaces. I think Child/Duress/Cabal/Extirpate/Kataki/Wasteland can delay them long enough to get your Wretch/Confi active. A lot of fish run isamaru/lions what purpose does that serve? A beating stick for 2... I rather cast a child so i can at least hold them off 1 more turn wich is HUGE in vintage. Later on when my deck changed i added sylvan. I first played with Necropotence/Infernal Contract/Skeletals but those were all 3 mana or above. I really needed something cheaper. Night's Whisper is good but it only draw 2 cards and most likely you can't do anything that turn. I rather invest 2 mana in something and reuse it everyturn for free. There are momentums when u play this kinda hand disruption. After the initial damage has been done with Duress/Strip/Cabal/Extirpate/Kataki there is always a dead moment were they draw and say pass because they need to recharge and search for answers. Most of the times i already got either confi or library active but its ok i am happy if i can cast it when those idle moments are there. After i burn my hand myself trying to burn his hand i also need new fuel. And that is when i need cards like confidant or library to get my engine up and running or continue to disrupt his mana or hand.

One of the reasons i play wretch is because it is fast ier and more effective in what he does compared to grunt. And Wretch kills grunt. This is important because a grunt can take over the advantage with oath of ghouls. How fast do you want a deck to be. It all costs 1 or 2 mana.
Look i always do something good turn 1. I will never keep a hand that says; land drop/pass unless i knew i was palying stax and i had a Kataki in my hand. And even then i want that first land to be a delta or mire.
A card like vial is more like slowing the deck down. If i played vials AND library/confidant i would be doing more of what you say. Investing in something that will get online the next couple of turns. That is why i picked my 2 mana spells to come later and why they are active the next turn. Then i have a little time because they want to recover. If i first do isamaru/vial cards that are slow in my opinion i might be too late. But the gameplan is to first cast cheap and effective disruptors and then invest in permanents that will help you out refilling your hand. The cool part is that those cards oath/library/confidant also have synergy with my earlier/faster disruptors. So the complete picture of the deck becomes cute. It all makes sence as a whole. Now if there is a way to make it faster and add more disruption i am all for it. But first you need to investigate the deck closer and understand the card choices and how the deck REALLY works when ur playing. In theory you arguments are really worth thinking about. When i read your stuff i don't dismiss them but those arguments you are making were processed by myself months ago. The more you play with a deck and the more you tune you become aware of those little details and how it REALLY plays out in practic. For example, a duress that is countered means that they have burned a FOW for it (you will also see the card they pithced). This means they will have a Recall or Tinker or something that will get something broken. You can adjust your gameplan to this in the next turns. Duress mana drain is exactly what i want. That is why duress is so strong. I have gained a natural sense of what they are holding in hand with cabal. And most of the times i don't need that sense because i can simply take a look at their hand with duress or extirpate. I don't mind losing a child if i can eat his hand away with double cabal. A common play, turn 1 land/mox merchant scroll pass. I drop land cast cabal. Sure counter it i don't mind. Those counterwalls need to be broken anyway and i am succesfull in doing so with this deck.

My creatures hit multiple decks as once better than you might think.

Wretch: Welder/Grunt/Darkblast/Ichorid/Y Will/Crucible/Threshold-Flashback-Dregde/Dragon...
Child: ToA and with Oath it can stop an army
Kataki: Stax(main reason)/Gifts/Slaver/Belcher/Any deck that wants to create a mana base with artifacts/Kills Opposing Kataki
Confidant: DO I REALLY NEED TO?

There is no clock. Agreed but there is more control and disruption.

About the disruption. I am really trying to find a place for Chalice and Unmask. But Chalice will be a dead draw after i lay it down for 0. You can't expect me to drop chalice at 1 do you? And against combo there is already enough disruption packed in my opinion. That leaves unmask. I am trying out 2 of them cutting scrapper and 1 extirpate but really is it worth it?
You make it sound like i have to hurry be faster do something NOW or they will kill me. Well it doesn't work like that really. I can sit down and relax if i am not playing combo or belcher. And i don't think those matchups are bad ones for me. I fear goblins more  

I don't think your words are empty you are pointing out some nice stuff however you have to put more trust in my words and comments about this deck when i tell you that you are not entirely correct it really means that you need to play the deck and come in the situation you desribing and see for yourself.

If i have to fear a turn 1 duress being countered i should quit playing this deck lol.

[demonic effect]

My creatures hit multiple decks as once better than you might think.

Wretch: Welder/Grunt/Darkblast/Ichorid/Y Will/Crucible/Threshold-Flashback-Dregde/Dragon...
Child: ToA and with Oath it can stop an army
Kataki: Stax(main reason)/Gifts/Slaver/Belcher/Any deck that wants to create a mana base with artifacts/Kills Opposing Kataki
Confidant: DO I REALLY NEED TO?

Right... they all attack different decks... meaning that each creature isn't versatile on their own...  Meddling mage is effective against any deck...  Child is not
Ex...  I understand the power of Wretch vs. Grunt if they have to stand off... but in reality they don't very often meaning that we only look to comparative value in terms of what they attempt to do...  Grunt also stops the very same decks that you are talking about... Additionally, it doesn't take mana to use its ability meaning that you can then play more threats securring a better position.  If, for whatever reason, the deck you are playing against is not GY deck... then grunt can still swing in for 4 which is a much bigger threat than a wretch...
          Sure, compared to one on one wretch may own Grunt... but grunt is more versatile and still hates out the decks that need to be hated out (making his overall value better)

This was just an example so don't get too hung up on it...  I am merely trying to say that your creatures tend to be focused on beating different decks...  Similarly, this means, that if you draw kataki, confident, and child w/o ghoul then you may have problems with ichorid b/c the only card that would help you is wretch.  Similarly, if you are facing stax... sure, you may be able to turn off welder with wretch, but w/o kataki, and with a smokestack in play (common) you will eat up your resources trying to keep welder unusable and thus prevent more drops -> being unable to keep up with smokestack -> lock etc...

Obviously these are scenarios that may or may not cause overall problems since you also carry duress/therapy/extirpate but do show the fundemental flaw with what you have chosen...  Sylvan and confidant are a slow draw engine (not saying that you can find better) both of which will only get you on average 1 extra card by turn 3...  Assuming that you do not draw the right disruption in your hand, how do you plan on getting to the right hate card/preventing them from winning? 

Additionally, besides confidant, thiese are the reasons that cards like wretch and kataki are most often seen in sideboards... they may do a better effect against the deck in question, but you trade versatility for that effect...  It is better to have a slightly weaker deck that doesn't matter what creature it draws with the option of sideboarding than a deck that is hit or miss...

I understand cabal/duress/extirpate can all be strong...  However, you do have limited mana availability...  On average you will only have 2-3 mana for the first few turns especially w/o early draw to help even this out...  If you waste/strip then you are stuck with the choice of either playing no creature, paying wretch's ability, or casting disruption in your hand only... not all three which is what your deck strongly advocates...
For Ex.   lets look at therapy...  If you play it turn one, then you are guessing as to what they have and will often miss.  If you play it on turn 2 after you figure out what is in their hand, then you forgo a creature drop (so trading off one disruption for another)... and if you decide to play a turn 2 cabal and plan on using therapy twice then you play turn 1 duress (presumably) turn 2 cabal (trading one disruption card for another) and then turn three play a creature and sac it (thereby removing your own disruptive force)...  The turn 1 play is often not that helpful.  If you then try to sac a creature turn two after playing a turn 1 therapy, then you are removing two disruption cards for one of the opponents and have barely hurt them.  Turn 2 play can be helpful, but only if your opponents hand allows b/c it means you have done nothing to create a clock and the effect is not static meaning they have the option of recovering much quicker at this point if they play draw spells... the turn 3 option means you are able to destroy their 3 biggest threats in hand...  At the same time, you are left with very little disruption, have not been drawing cards (and will take you at least another two turns to do so) and have created no permenant damage (like a static effect)...  This is not to say that removing their 3 biggest threats thus far is nothing to laugh at, butit does mean that you are for an uphill battle in terms of a resource war which they are better designed to take advantage of from this point.  This all of course assumes that they do not have any disruption/do not use it which is kinda silly...

As a final note on the duresss/therapy/extirpate cards... Just because you include these cards does not make your deck as a whole viable.  These cards are not unique to your deck design... If these cards are truly as powerful as you say then in reality the shell of this deck has nothing to do with the creatures involved but rather the non-creature disruption...  Those same cards could be included in shop aggro, fish, Oath of Druids (therapy would be worse but you say that you tend to know their hand anyway), etc...  With this in mind, the basic shell is created up of the non-creature disruption and you have to justify why your creature strategy is better than these other decks/does something unique.  To this end, I truly think that you do do something unique.  However, I do not think that it can do it consistently enough (b/c of versatility and draw issues that i talked about previously) as compared to what other decks have to offer...  I would much rather cast turn 1 duress, turn 2 meddling mage than turn 1 duress, turn two child against an opposing dragon deck etc...

Child is the only creature for 1 mana that can delay a ToA turn 1.

I agree, but this does not mean he is viable... If you are truly afraid of ToA for 1, why not play chalice set at 0 followed up by a therapy/duress?  This eliminates mana and the duress can take a dark ritual, draw spell, etc...  Namely whatever they need for gas to win.  This play is much stronger than playing creatures in that it prevents the opponent from performing his strategy vs. a turn 1 korlis which does not thus allowing removal to be found (every combo deck carries removal)...  I think Korlis is a cool trick for sure, but what do you do against the opponent then casting an ETW for 10-12 creatures turn 1/2?  you prevent damage for a turn, but w/o oath you have no way of truly competing.  Since ETW is being added into a lot of ToA builds (gifts, long, etc...)  Korlis seems to not be that effective anymore...  It is better to prevent them from performing the way they want to than to play a card that prevents them from winning only (b/c an answer or alternative win condition will be found).


Finally, I just don't find your deck to be that resilient.  Sure, Ghoul may be able to bring a creature back... but that takes a turn (during which I may win) and your creatures are not versatile.  Additionally, ghoul is probably a good counter target etc...  What I'm more concerned with is how do you deal with more generalized disruption.
Like your deck seems to do well in goldfish mode... but I still don't understand how you deal with opposing disruption...  Chalice for 1 backed up with counters seems pretty strong...  Or what if they play orb of dreams turn 1 meaning you have no mana until turn 3 since you will probably use a fetch to get the land... during that time they will definately get a huge advantage on you...  What if they counter confidant so that your draw engine is shut off? (instant draw isn't hurt as bad since you get more bang for your buck and you get it now rather than having to wait for the cumulative effect).  How do you then continue to apply pressure?  What do you do when they play turn 1 oath (on the play) and you don't have a Korlis in hand?  Do you not play creatures to stop activation?  or, what if a dragon deck decides to duress you and takes wretch?  your plan against dragon is now destroyed and you have to have extirpate and hope that you haven't already used it as a means of looking at their hand to make your own therapy stronger to even have a chance... 

To sum up
1:  Your deck is not as disruptive as you like to think:
      a.  resource issues/trade-offs
      b.  not versatile
      c.  limited draw/search to find key disruption and recover when disruption exhausted
2:  Your disruption is not unique to your deck.
      a.  lack of focus (fish's focus is to disrupt and have clock... it does this with free disruption... what is yours?)
      b.  Other decks have a better shell than you and can still utilize the part of your deck that makes you so strong... why is your deck, as a whole, viable?
3.  Your inability to deal with opposing disruption effectively.
      a.  Limited draw/search
      b.  not versatile enough

[Guli]

Sorry for my late response.

Each creature is not versatile on their own? I can name you a dozen creatures that are considerably worse in being versatile than my creature base and they are used in different versions/colors of fish.

You can't argue about Wretch with me. He won many many games single handed. He is one of the the most versitale creature in type 1 right now and he is better than grunt in what he does. We are not arguing clock here. Grunt doesn't even come close to Wretch in terms of control and effeciency. With wretch i am always sure he will give me what i want. It is easier to play around grunt.

Kataki doesn't need that much talk either. Without Rod/Chalice maindeck and to have a better mathcup against shop i strongly believe Kataki is a natural add-in. His effect is undeniably strong in type 1. He works disruptive against so many decks out there and he devistates a couple decks there.

Dark Confidant is the best reason to play the color black when creating an aggro/control. It is like the card is the result of aggro and control togheter. You can't ask more from a card that wants to beat and draw.

Children of Korlis. I think your main problem is this card. With this one i can understand your remarks. He doesn't really seem to be that super-great. However combo/storm-control is simply out there in the top tier. And this is the only creature for 1 mana that you can start with turn 1 to be disruptive. Don't underestimate the work when you must find a bounce before you go off. It can buy another turn for the child deck wich means gaining a tempo. And that extra turn could cause another extra turn with Kataki or Duress or Wasteland etc.
After a while Child loses his early game function and becomes something else wich I explained earlier. By the way i didn't mention this before but with 2 Child you can actually start gaining life and this is not just 1 or 2 but 8-12 life a turn. Not that important but to simply point out you can't just do nothing against this deck you need to win rather fast before those little combos become a wall that you won't be able to break anymore.

Meddling mage is blue/white. Why are you even mentioning the card? To point out (in your mind) that my creature base is bad and to show how great mage is? I already know how good mage is. Or do you want me to drop green and play mages/recall/walk? I tried that btw. But i think you need vials with those colors. And I already explained that i need direct answers turn 1 and not a card that will pay of later.

About draw/disruption: You can't expect to play hand disruption and draw/cast stuff at the same time. You know why? Because hand disruption is a very effective way to disrupt already. You are directly targeting the bombs and his gameplan. Preventive countering in other words. So you are giving up speed/tempo but you gain something else. Knowledge of their deck/hand and how to play out the next turns. Wich creature to use first. A duress/strip/Kataki can buy you the necessary time to get that sylvan or confi active.

Extirpate was the main reason i remade this deck because. It is a very versatile card. With duress it becomes even more scary. Cabal is the natural next add-in.  There are only 2 cabal in the deck. This means they are strong in here but i don't want to see too much of them either. I think 4/4/2 is healty but nobody stops you from making that 4/3/3 or 4/4/3. (resp. Duress/Ext/Cabal)

To sum up
1:  Your deck is not as disruptive as you like to think:
      a.  resource issues/trade-offs
      b.  not versatile
      c.  limited draw/search to find key disruption and recover when disruption exhausted
2:  Your disruption is not unique to your deck.
      a.  lack of focus (fish's focus is to disrupt and have clock... it does this with free disruption... what is yours?)
      b.  Other decks have a better shell than you and can still utilize the part of your deck that makes you so strong... why is your deck, as a whole, viable?
3.  Your inability to deal with opposing disruption effectively.
      a.  Limited draw/search
      b.  not versatile enough

To answer

1: This deck is higly disruptive packing 25 cards who interract with eachoter and giving solid answers to problems like gravehate/mana denial/storm/tutors/hand disruption.
2: Who said i was trying to be unique? Focus is on his hand and grave combined with a little mana denial. I just approach it in another way and i think my way is faster and more crippling. If you look at a U/W fish what do they want? Drop a 1 cc creature like stormscape or flying men to get a ninja in play turn 2. I can do the same with turn 1 land/mox/confi. And be able to cast something else the next turn. Sure they have force but that 1 force is not going to cut it against storm with a strong opening hand either. My duress might be better than that force in many situations. If you ask me my matchup against storm is better thana fish packing blue/force with whatever card choices there are many lists with all kinds of approaches.
You asked me questions like 'what happens if...' a lot. I don't work like that. I test and tune all the time and gain knowledge, experience and insight about all those possible scenarios.
example: What if they counter your duress? You asked me this.
I played UW fish and UWb fish for years. And i still do. I am perfectly aware of the differences you are trying to point out. The problem is that you are trying to use those differences to justify your incorrect statements about disruptivity and versatility.

[Kieranwolf]

Guys, I'm not sure where this two-way discussion is going...other than nowhere, that is. "Yes it is" and "No it isn't" don't help us learn, especially when there's no new information being shared.

I won't comment on statements to the effect of "Your deck isn't as good as you think it is". Instead I have decided to do some professing.

EXAMPLE QUESTIONS:

What sort of metagame is this deck good in?

Why should I play it rather than some other deck that's already well-established?

What strategies does the deck make excellent use of?

What are some things that can be done to adjust the decklist for a different metagame?

Why did you choose to run that number of such and such a card?

EXAMPLE ANSWERS:

On answering Chalice: Most decks you play against in Vintage tournaments are Vintage decks. That is, even if they will readily drop Chalice @ 1, if they do it early it will probably affect their clock and it will shut off a good portion of their deck. I've been adding Chalices to every decklist I've been making, and you almost surely can't make one that's both competitive and isn't affected by Chalice @ 1 at all. That being said, when your opponent drops Chalice @ 1 proactively, you will almost always have some time to answer it. With Sylvan Library and Dark Confidant, you can dig four cards deep for an answer. If they drop Chalice to keep you from clawing your way back into the game against a one or two turn clock, you're still probably screwed, but otherwise there's hope.


I can see a case being made to include Chalice of the Void and Unmask in here. Since Children of Korlis are in there to fight combo, though, and they cost one mana, they wouldn't be that good with Chalice (in my meta you almost always want to cast Chalice @ 1 unless you're expecting your opponent to combo off after your turn and you don't have the mana for one counter).

Chalice @ 1 and Unmask have excellent synergy, especially when you have black cards that you can't cast anymore. Aside from (probably) some Children, you'd also probably have to cut some Extirpates, Duresses, or Therapies to avoid having a hand full of them. Of course, if you did that you wouldn't be able to call the deck "Oath of Korlis" anymore.

Perhaps against the fastest combo decks, you'd side out Extirpates for Chalices and go with Unmask just to have faster disruption. Or perhaps Children and black hand disruption would be enough if you found room for dark rituals.

Huh. Well, that's more of a sharing of ideas than an answer.

Now, does anyone have an example of constructive criticism on the latest decklist? I, for one, am wondering if it should be more "Tutors and silver bullets" than "Catch-all answers" such as Vindicate (which gives up castability for versatility).

As far as more creature-based disruption, all I can think up at the moment are Mesmeric Fiend and Samurai of the Pale Curtain. Both are less effective than what's already there, except that Samurai hates the graveyard proactively (turning off Crucible and Welder mostly, while Extirpate has a different function). There's True Believer as well, but Children of Korlis is strictly better against ToA.

Other ideas?

[Guli]

I have to point out wrong statements as the thread/deck starter. False information is worse than no new information. The comments made by demonic are really not that bad btw if we were talking about somthing else. They just don't apply to this deck. He definitly has a good understanding of some aspects of this game but that doesn't mean he is putting that knowledge in the right context.

Another idea, hmmm i got many

Skullclamp sounds interesting in theory. Demonic should reply he is good in writing the theory down And i ll be happy to test it.



Samurai of the Pale Curtain and True believer are both the wrong colors. I would really love to see true believer in the deck though.