Post future site, control slaver

[Khahan]

Slaver seems like it will never die. Its been around since..well since Mindslaver was printed.  Its got to be one of the most resilient and adaptable archetypes out there. Its history is a story of survival in an ever changing and expanding metagame.  With the release of  Future Site, it faces some serious new issues.  They are:

1) Flash: A turn .5 kill.  A turn 1 kill. 

2) Ichorid a Turn 2-3 kill


If one deck or the other were introduced now, I wouldn't be worried. I'd adapt my deck to it and life would go. However both decks came out at the same time and both pose serious game 1 problems for slaver.  Both win very fast while Control-Slaver is establishing control. Both pack so many answers/threats that slaver cannot keep up. The problem is, if you adapt to deal with Flash (adding misdirections and REB's to win the early counter war against FoW, Pacts MisD's etc), then you are giving away game 1 to ichorid.  If you adapt a game 1 vs ichorid you will lose the counter war to flash, possibly before you get any cards that can hate both on line.

Before going any further, I'll present the decklist I have been playing for the past year or so:

3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Memory Jar
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Recoup
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Goblin Welder
1 Time Walk
1 Mindslaver
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Misdirection
-------------
2 Stifle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Jester's Cap
2 Pyroclasm
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Memnarch


I have already changed up my sideboard, planning for a heavy ichorid environment and a bit of flash, too. The problem is, I give game 1 away to ichorid. In play testing online and at the recent blue bell tournament, I have yet to win a game 1 vs ichorid.  I'm giving this list, not to debate whether its the best, worst or a reasonable variant. But simply as a starting point.  Anybody who playing a burning slaver list should play out very similar to my deck. Even the newer dry slaver lists can play similar to this list.

The first step I'd like to see people discuss is what cards are realistically available to the control slaver player as maindeck adaptions against ichorid and flash?

After a decent set of cards is bandied about, we can move the discussion to how to change variations of CS lists.

Here is what we have so far:
Against both:
Leyline of the void

Against ichorid:
Tormod's Crypt: Its a speed bump for ichorid. Nothing more. If you wait until ichorid's graveyard is ripe and juicy for the picking...ichorid has already won. And if you pop the crypt too soon ichorid recovers on its next dredg...err draw.

Xilid Jailer: There is potential. Its playable in most builds of slaver and acts as a beater/win condition. But it also changes how the deck plays.

ensaring bridge: Not altogether a horrible choice. With a lot of fish in today's meta and a lot of random aggro decks, not to mention hybrids like confidant tendrils, this will not always be a dead card. But against many decks, you have to keep  your hand so empty it works against the idea of 'control' slaver.  Not an ideal maindeck, but one that can be explored for the sideboard.  Its also relatively slow and not likely to be online turns 1 or 2. In all reality, this is also an option against flash decks that use the convoluted kiki-jiki/karmic guide kill. But again, its may prove to be too slow.

Against Flash:
misdirection: A good choice. This emphasizes the control in 'control slaver.'  It increases your turn .5 counters for the all important counter war. Against the rest of the field, its not dead, either

red elemental blast A nice option for an extra counter. In a drain heavy environment, these are still useful, even main deck. In a U/W fish environment, these are still nice, dubbing as creature removal for Meddling mages or to help win the early counter wars. But in an ichorid heavy environment, its completely dead.

[Kowal]

There are a couple issues I see.  Primarily, you're not maindecking any Tormod's Crypts.

You can not play Control Slaver without at least one maindeck Tormod's Crypt.  It's just a blatant mistake.  I'd be running at least two given both the issues you listed are slowed considerably by a Crypt.

Second, you're running a lot of cards that don't actually help your deck win.  Tendrils isn't going to kill people.  If you can get ten spells, you can just get Mindslaver and a welder.  Recoup is rarely required, since you don't typically Gifts for Will anyway.  A good gifts pile usually includes something like two tutors and a busted card, so that when you DO go off you have both busted cards and whatever else you're missing.  Getting Recoup is essentially denying you two broken cards (plus whatever the second thing they give you is)

And the Crucible/Artifactland thing isn't useful.  You never need an infinite slave lock.  If you can't kill someone with the three or four activations you get from your existing board position, you're making some pretty terrible mistakes.  This is doubly true in this metagame, where a single activation can (and will) kill the two biggest decks the format has to offer.


Further, while there are some definite problems with the build, I don't feel CS is a realistic deck right now.  It does very poorly against Flash, and it rarely keeps up with Ichorid.  It already doesn't perform very well against most builds of fish, and it doesn't post a high enough win percentage against Gifts to make it auto-win.  You're basically accepting, by playing CS, that you have 80% of the room as your bad matchup, and 20% as "winnable".

[Khahan]

Further, while there are some definite problems with the build, I don't feel CS is a realistic deck right now.  It does very poorly against Flash, and it rarely keeps up with Ichorid.  It already doesn't perform very well against most builds of fish, and it doesn't post a high enough win percentage against Gifts to make it auto-win.  You're basically accepting, by playing CS, that you have 80% of the room as your bad matchup, and 20% as "winnable".

Well, the point of the thread is to discuss how to shore up some of those bad match ups. However, I take exception to your analysis of the match up %. Fish is a very nice match up for me. I'd have to say at least  80% (except for r/b builds which treat me a little rough).  Gifts used to be a pain, but nowadays (and I'm not sure if this is because of changes in my particular build or changes in different gifts builds or if I've just gotten better experience against gifts) I'd say the gifts match up is about 70-30. In slavers favor.  Not an auto win, but a solid chance.

Pitch long I've also improved against and am probably 60-40 against it.

Oath is starting to go the other way, I'd say 25-75.

Ichorid, pre-sideboard, is almost not worth playing. It slaughters slaver. Post sideboard, mull into a leyline and win. I don't have enough data yet to give real %, but the post side match up improves from a worthless cause to a very competitive match.

Against flash, again, its almost not worth playing. Post side board (with my current side) I still have not had much success. But again, I don't have enough data to give a real %, but its not encouraging.

However, I could easily change up my sideboard to vastly improve my  games 2 and 3 vs flash. I just feel, right now, that by doing so, I'm going to weaken myself against Ichorid too much. Which brings us back to the point of the thread (maybe you missed this since you seemed intent on discussing the deck itself): What choices are out there aside from Leyline of the void that can shore up games 2 and 3 against both of the new archetypes? In other words: How to help control slaver in the Post  Future Sight meta?

[Kowal]

I missed nothing.  The point of my post is that not only are these matchups just outclassing you, but you're not even using the really basic tools you should be starting with.

Here's the bottom line:  Ichorid is going to wreck you game one.  Flash is too.  As such, the only way to make CS a deck you can take to a tournament and expect to win is to make your matchup percentage 90% or better.  Tell me you've done that, and I'll point out a liar.  It just doesn't happen.  You can not expect to have piss-poor matchups against the two best decks in the format and seriously believe your sideboard will carry you to the cut.

And one more point of interest is that with the Dryad Arbors in the maindeck, you run in to the issue of the Ichorid player having access to 7+ ways to remove your leyline without compromising the integrity of their own deck, in addition to their therapies and uncounterable draw/dig engine.  Keeping the Leyline on the table becomes an issue, and when you're already auto-losing game one, you can't afford this situation at all.

In order for a control deck to beat Ichorid, you need to be maindecking Leylines, or routinely kill turn two.  You can lucksack a win or two here and there with Tormods (which NEEDS to be in your deck) but in order to win often enough to not be throwing away a potential top eight you need to have maindeck Leyline and additional hate ready for game two when they bring in their removal.

[Bubbydan]

  I am going to have to agree with the maindeck Tormods crypt, and I would drop memory jar...or at least side it out against ichroid. No reason helping them load up their graveyards.

  I am a minority in the fact that I think leyline is the only way to go. In slaver you have welders which means you should be able to get a couple of uses out of a crypt. That should slow them down enough for you to do something.

  Now with Flash you have to break it down. Rector Flash, Hulk Flash with karmic guide win are both reliant on the graveyard so hate that way could do it.
   Disciple Flash is the one flash without use of the graveyard, but it carries less counter. Maybe just board in REBs.
 
 I have been thinking about pithing needle lately too. It can be used to stop Bazaar, which is another speed bump for Ichiroid to have to pass over. It can be used to stop parts of all three flash combos.

  Now in doing all of this we have to remember that there are other decks to beat too. Against Gifts the graveyard hate is great. Grim long it is so-so, so there needs to be something else. I personally use sphere of resistances. It slows them down so you have a chance to win.
 
 Dan

[zeus-online]

I'd probably wait for the next B/R announcment and see what happens...I think the meta-game is getting a bit too fast for slaver - Too much combo.

/Zeus

Ps. Although i must admit that i think slaver is great against fish, depends heavily on the CS build though.

[Khahan]

I missed nothing.  The point of my post is that not only are these matchups just outclassing you, but you're not even using the really basic tools you should be starting with.

I'll agree that both Ichorid and flash just smash me game 1.  But claiming tormod's crypt is a basic answer is stubborn thinking. It has been a classic answer in slaver and has great synergy with the deck in the past. However I think the point we can both agree on is that it doesn't do anything in the flash match up.  Where we disagree is in its effectiveness against ichorid.  Against ichorid, its a speed bump. Nothing more. Ichorid will win on turn 4 instead of turn 2. It just has too high of a threat density in its deck. Ichorids graveyard is equivalent to most other decks hands. Considering how many cards they can dump back in with a bazaar, crypt is just ineffective.  Despite the lack of synergy (ie, not able to weld it), leyline is just much more powerful against ichorid than crypt.

Here's the bottom line:  Ichorid is going to wreck you game one.  Flash is too.  As such, the only way to make CS a deck you can take to a tournament and expect to win is to make your matchup percentage 90% or better.  Tell me you've done that, and I'll point out a liar.  It just doesn't happen.  You can not expect to have piss-poor matchups against the two best decks in the format and seriously believe your sideboard will carry you to the cut.

That is kind of the point of this thread. Like I said, I know how I can change my deck to give me a good match up against Ichorid. I know how I can change my deck to give me a good match up against flash. I don't know how to c hange my deck to give me a good match up against both.

And one more point of interest is that with the Dryad Arbors in the maindeck, you run in to the issue of the Ichorid player having access to 7+ ways to remove your leyline without compromising the integrity of their own deck, in addition to their therapies and uncounterable draw/dig engine.  Keeping the Leyline on the table becomes an issue, and when you're already auto-losing game one, you can't afford this situation at all.

Ok, so they have access to colored mana for certain spells. Spells I can deal with. Spells I can stop.  I couldn't care less about spells. Its the non-spells in ichorid that cause me fits.

In order for a control deck to beat Ichorid, you need to be maindecking Leylines, or routinely kill turn two.

I believe there are other ways, I just haven't found them yet. Hence the thread.

You can lucksack a win or two here and there with Tormods (which NEEDS to be in your deck) but in order to win often enough to not be throwing away a potential top eight you need to have maindeck Leyline and additional hate ready for game two when they bring in their removal.

Ok, lets stop making statements without backing them up.  WHY does tormods need to be in the maindeck? Because it has synergy and can work against a number of decks? I have been doing quite fine w/out tormods maindeck for over a year.   I admit, prior to FS crypt was very useful and I occassionally did main deck it, I do not feel its needed. Slaver has so many other ways of winning (both big and small).   But now, its not enough.  What makes you think it is?

[Kowal]

Starting from the top:

But claiming tormod's crypt is a basic answer is stubborn thinking. It has been a classic answer in slaver and has great synergy with the deck in the past. However I think the point we can both agree on is that it doesn't do anything in the flash match up.  Where we disagree is in its effectiveness against ichorid.  Against ichorid, its a speed bump. Nothing more. Ichorid will win on turn 4 instead of turn 2. It just has too high of a threat density in its deck. Ichorids graveyard is equivalent to most other decks hands. Considering how many cards they can dump back in with a bazaar, crypt is just ineffective.  Despite the lack of synergy (ie, not able to weld it), leyline is just much more powerful against ichorid than crypt.

Nobody is arguing that Leyline is more powerful than crypt.  What I'm arguing is that Leyline is kind of a crappy maindeck card, whereas Crypt is a fantastic maindeck card.  Unless you're planning on mulling in to Leyline, you can't really count on it as a game one strategy.  While CS CAN cast a Leyline, it's a pretty godawful play and nine times out of ten is way too slow to matter against Ichorid or Flash anyway.  A Tormod's Crypt is a strategy you can use in game one that's faster than Leyline is (assuming you're not maindecking four and mulling in to them every game, which is a pretty crappy strategy given your odds of finding one AND a playable hand are pretty slim) and of course doesn't necessitate running a full set to make them work.

Against Ichorid, buying time until turn four is really all you need.  Your plan here is to cast Tinker for Mindslaver or Platinum Angel, and I mean really, can you get any better than a weldable zero-cost Time Stretch?

I'm also not about to agree that it does nothing in the flash matchup.  Against a Rector kill you can deny their rector the ability to search with it.  Against a Hulk kill you can remove the Hulk when they try to get it with Karmic Guide/Body Snatcher.

Ok, so they have access to colored mana for certain spells. Spells I can deal with. Spells I can stop.  I couldn't care less about spells. Its the non-spells in ichorid that cause me fits.

This statement shows you're not terribly familiar with the Ichorid matchup.  Spells are just as bad as nonspells after turn two.  Ichorid has a tremendously simple time locating disruption and removal, and they will overwhelm a counterwall with relative ease if you aren't stopping their bazaars from turning sideways.

I believe there are other ways, I just haven't found them yet. Hence the thread.

There really aren't other ways.  You're either disrupting the deck and winning as early as possible, or trying to utterly shut down the deck.  For the former, your best bet is a diverse mix of Tormods, Pithing Needles, and other inexpensive hate cards that are versatile enough to be useful against the field.  For the latter, you need Leyline or your plan doesn't work.

Ok, lets stop making statements without backing them up.  WHY does tormods need to be in the maindeck? Because it has synergy and can work against a number of decks? I have been doing quite fine w/out tormods maindeck for over a year.   I admit, prior to FS crypt was very useful and I occassionally did main deck it, I do not feel its needed. Slaver has so many other ways of winning (both big and small).   But now, its not enough.  What makes you think it is?

This makes me cranky.  I fail to see how you can possibly say I am not backing up my statements.  You started a thread about dealing with two decks that use graveyard recursion to beat you, and you're arguing against Tormod's Crypt?  If it's not enough (ie, you're seeing it you're not winning) Flash either has a great hand, or you're playing incorrectly.  I'm not going to sugar-coat it, but it really sounds like the latter.  You're demonstrating you're not terribly familiar with the matchups, and more importantly you're seriously undervaluing probably the best "misc." slot CS has ever run.  This card was auto-maindeck BEFORE the top decks were Ichorid and Flash, and it's critical against both in order to stall and win the way Slaver has to.  Why, then, would you even CONSIDER cutting it?  It just doesn't make any sense.

[Khahan]

You know what, you are right. I was thinking of crypt to stop protean hulk, but thats just the beginning of the combo (and yes, I konw how to use it against rector flash, but I don't think I'm seeing a lot of rector flash in my area). Use crypt to disrupt it in the middle.  Like I said in the initial post, I have too little experience against flash.  I still maintain its not effective enough against Ichorid.  But I will have to reevaluate it against flash.

And yes, we agree that Leyline is a crappy maindeck card for slaver.

[Bubbydan]

Against Ichorid, buying time until turn four is really all you need.  Your plan here is to cast Tinker for Mindslaver or Platinum Angel, and I mean really, can you get any better than a weldable zero-cost Time Stretch?

That really sums up why I think crypt is still good in Slaver. I have just recently also started testing Yixlid Jailer in my sideboard for this match up. I have three in there right now. So post sideboard my deck ends up being four crypts and three jailers. The whole idea is to keep throwing speed bumps in front of them until  your ready. Both crypt and jailer can be cast turn one.
  Ichiroid has a tough time finding answers. They have no tutors, so the best they can do is bazzar and hope. With the jailer out they have to find an answer to that, which it the best for that deck would be contagion (basically free) depending on the build you might have shut down there cabal therepies which leaves them no way to strip your hand of counters.

  The flash match up seems tougher. You cant out counter them. Some are immune to graveyard hate  ( disciple mainly), and they go off pretty quick. I just havent done that much testing in that area yet. Maybe sphere of resitance or trinisphere to make their flashes cost three, and up the cost of the pacts. Trickbind could work too. Split second, they cant use the ability the rest of the turn.

Dan

[The Atog Lord]

Tormod's Crypt has been great in Control Slaver for the past year or so. The metagame is now more graveyard-loving than ever. Therefore, I have no idea why anyone would build Control Slaver without Tormod's Crypt.