The Uphill Battle

[Zherbus]

The Uphill Battle

I’m writing this to track and log my experience with breaking back into Vintage and resurrecting my flagship deck. Because I was asked directly in the Open forums about my thoughts, some of those will be repeated here for completeness.

Returning to Vintage after exactly two years gives you not only a fresh view of Vintage, but to Magic on the whole. As a result, I need to ask myself whether the deck I feel the most comfortable playing is justified. See what I said before:

Believe me, as a designer of this deck for years, the first thing you ask yourself before sitting down with a concept or list is "Is this better than <whatever is tier 1>?"

Pave did a good job explaining some of the points of XcControl, but I feel I should elaborate. Firstly, I re-read my articles from two years ago and the bones of the articles are still valid. For a decent explanation of what this decks role in Vintage is, I'd give those a once over. Before really answering that question, you need to delve a bit deeper into Magic theory than "Deck X is tier 1, therefore I should just play it." Some share that view, others do not. I am of the former and have always been.

This is not to say that running tier 1 decks is a no-no. I was on the Necro train during black summer. I played ProsperBloom in the Mirage era. Fires and Rebels in the Masques/Invasion timeframe. Affinity in the Mirrodin Standard. It goes on... I ran those decks because it was the easy choice. Some decks were too broken not to play, and others were just good choices. However, None of them let me lean on my playskill (and therefore milk the most out of my testing) enough to be a favorite going into any given tournament. There's a difference between knowing your deck, knowing it's match-ups, being a good player and playing an entirely different game of Magic every game to win.

Brian Demars Control Slaver deck, like XcControl achieves this, where as (in current Vintage) PitchLong, Gifts (at least) do not. When I played 3 or 4cControl in the past, it wasn't because it was a tier 1 deck. It was because I stood a better chance playing my ass off with it, than simply running (give or take 2-3 cards) the same deck everyone else ran. I may have mentioned this years ago, but it's been a while so listen to my theory:

Every deck has ratings based off different qualities that make up a winning tournament experience.

A decks power. A decks resiliancy. A decks playskill level. A decks playskill cap.

If I take a deck like Belcher, on a scale of 1-10 it would probably look like so: 9, 2, 4, 4. It's fast as hell, folds like a cheap tent, not-to-hard to pilot, but doesn't let you milk you Magic decision making skills for all it's worth. *

A hard look at standard (meaning not anything overly techy) Gifts might yield: 7, 7, 5, 6. It's pretty damn powerful, but there are faster decks. Its packing disruption for both protecting it's strategy and stopping others. It's a moderate deck to pilot in terms of difficulty. Finally, it's tricky to an extent to pilot because it involves decisions early on (what to counter) that can make or break the game, though the options are limited.  *

From my experience with XcControl would be: 5, 7, 8, 9. It's not explosive, in fact it often wins small. By virtue of being a powered deck, it has the standard brokenness that a Yawgmoth's Will can pack. It's built around being resilient, by virtue of running many solutions and the standard counterspell gambit. It's one of the harder decks you'll learn to pilot because of every play being a balancing act. And finally, it lets you milk every bit of experience with testing and playskill you have to pull out wins.

So for example, looking at the three decks on the surface (using only the first two values), Belcher is the most powerful, but very fragile (9,2). Gifts is very solid with a good deal of power and resiliency (7,7). And finally, 3cControl is the weakest in power and doesn't have anymore resiliency than Gifts has (5,7). Therefore, out of the three, Gifts is the logical choice.

Look deeper and you'll see that Belcher doesn't make up in what it lacks in resiliancy in playskill category. Gifts isn’t that much flexible, but 3cControl gives an unseen edge of being able to use the pilot to an advantage. Combine this with the fact that if (and I realize I am oversimplifying this to make a point) 60% of the field came to the same conclusion about gifts (7,7 looks the best after all). 30% may make the conclusion that Belcher is the deck to play (a 9 is quite impressive). With 60% of the matches you play potentially being mirror matches (and with a skillcap being only a 6), how do you really rate your chances?

With a 6, there's only so much being a good player can do. You can play a teched out version of Gifts and have an edge, or you can play 3cC (which has no choice but to be teched out) and have a good shot, since you won't be vulnerable to the Gifts hate (because the other 40% is knowing they are playing Gifts).

I hope I was articulate enough to get my point across. Thanks for reading the diatribe anyway.

*The numbers may be off, but for arguments sake...

Continuing on this thread of deck ratings, I think it would be an interesting exercise to rate all the decks in Vintage. I think that it’s unreasonable to have just one person decide on these ratings, which leads me to think that maybe a topic on each could be informative. It’d be interesting to see the differences of opinion, and to be able to take a step-removed from the debates and really decide on things like “Just how hard is Control Slaver to play”.

[Zherbus]

Continuing the real question:

Now the next question is, is this the right time to play control?

I wrote:

Honestly, I haven't been able to answer that myself. I'm working on a build right now, and it seems hopeful. The formula I've used in the past is that it has to have no common bad matchups. It doesn't have to be even favorable for all of them. But it has to be able, through superior play, to be better than just playing the subjective best deck. Otherwise, there's no reason not to "just play Gifts".

Right now, not only does it have to have a solid game against Long and Gifts to even think about playing, but it can't lose to Fish. We'll call this phase 1. To add to the complication, there's a healthy number of Stax variants in the global metagame (meaning, you can ignore it if it's not a regional issue). XcControl needs the disruption to deal with the early game against combo, the card draw to keep up with Gifts, and the resources to avoid Fish's hate. Then there's Stax to worry about. Nevermind Control for a minute, but this is why Vintage's barrier of ANY new archetype entry is so high.

Phase 2: Once you've covered your major bases, you have to consider other stuff like Oath, Ichorid, and Bomberman (wow, I hate that name). If you've passed phase 1, then you need to look at how bad the other matchups are. Does your measures against the decks in phase one handle the majority of what phase two has to offer? If not, do you have any room in the deck or SB to address these? If not, is it only one or two bad matchups that got you worried? Are they even metagame considerations?

Sure, my naming of phases can almost directly be translated to tiers. However, there is a major difference. If Goblins, likely a tier 3 deck right now, were the most popular it would be a phase 1 deck. The point is that playing in a tournament is a game of statistics first and foremost. Before you get to how well you play, you have to consider what will and won’t be a deck you’ll likely face.

If you’re looking to playing in a Waterbury, you want to look at the New England reports to look at the field sampling. Don’t just pay attention to what won or made top 8, pay attention to the field breakdown. Did Stax have a single top 8, but it was an easy 20% of the field? These are things you’re going to need to know. In this case, before showing up to a Waterbury: have a solid game against Stax or don’t show up.

To Be Continued.

[Zherbus]

Learning from Other Formats

When I came back to Magic, it wasn't my intention to jump right into Vintage. I couldn't help it, though. The Vintage format is a game like no other and I enjoy the wiggle room left in the innovation department. That said, I have been playing a lot of other formats. While playing those formats, I've been paying attention to fundimentals that apply to those formats but not Vintage and vise versa.

The biggest difference that I've seen so far is the usage of 60 cards in a deck. One exception is thatTron decks require twelve slots to be devoted to the lands, leaving only 48 cards left for the flesh of the deck in Standard and Extended. Vintage has many staples that go in to most lists before the deck is even built. May it be a full gambit of artifact acceleration or four Force of Wills and four Brainstorm (or both!), there's only x amount of cards that you can squeeze into a list.

Extended Tron, like many Vintage decks, uses lots of cantrip effects to thin the deck out to get to the core of the decks focus. This makes Tron very reliable, especially for being a control deck. This is also in the face of a very fast format! Extended, right now, is similiar of Vintage decks of old. There's Zoo (Gaea's Might Get There and Boros), Combo-esque big mana decks (Tooth and Nail, Loam variants), Dedicated speed combo (TEPS), and even something resembling The Deck (UW Tron).

What lessons can Vintage learn from a format that's currently doing what it did 8 years ago?

Plenty, I would argue.

Firstly, this is the first time that high-profile events are paying attention to lots of the mechanics and strategies that exist in Vintage (Slaver and Storm for example). Secondly, I view Extended and Legacy as Vintage's unbroken potential. Might we have games where 6 spells aren't cast on turn two, then we'll have interactions like we see in those formats.

(To be continued)

[Zherbus]

I have time for a shortish update:

I view Vintage as chaos the first few turns, but if it clears, it's some of the best and most spectacular M:TG ever. It seems that those of us who love the format do so because, despite the potential of being unable to interact at all, the games that make it past the initial phase are Magic in its best hour. Playing (pre-FS) block and standard lately shows the complete opposite, where almost nothing happens but resource building for the first 2-3 turns. Then after that is some of the most grueling, pain-in-the-ass M:TG ever. The power levels are so subdued, that some of the best cards: Teferi, Bogarden Hellkite, and Mystical Teachings are really bad in Vintage. Compared to Mirrodin, it's just plain not a Vintage-friendly set... until FS saw the light of day.

Will Pact of Negation turn out to be the next Tendril's of Agony for Vintage? Or will it be the next Disrupting Shoals? Figuring out the answer to that, on it's own is hard. However BECAUSE we have Tendril's of Agony (and now Flash), Pact of Negation will be used to great effect. Between this, and the Flash errata, I have my concerns for multiple formats. Combo is fine... but ugh.

"Ugh."

I think that sums it up nicely.

[Zherbus]

Not much of an update here, but I found this picture on my old laptop called the_many_faces_of_meandeck.jp g:



Ahh, good times. I miss C4rl.

I've gotten an updated XcControl list. I've been testing the heck out of it, trying to find my shortcomings. I expect a somewhat weak matchup versus Stax, but I should be able to handle everything else handily. With some more testing and a coherant sideboarding plan, I should be able to do something to help that matchup too. Wish me luck!

[Zherbus]

This is in reply to Hi-Vals post about Flash and Legacy. The reply got too long and I didn't want it to become MY thread, so I put it in mine:

To be honest, I had almost no interest in Legacy prior to Flash.

... I know! I know!

It was and is a combination of availablity for a play outlet and some other things I'd rather not get into in a public fora. Anyway, another element was that the decks really just seemed like a history book of Extended for the most part. And quite honestly, I was enjoying Block, Standard, Limited, Extended, and Vintage... Legacy just fell short of the Z-train if you know what I mean!

When Flash came along, things got a whole lot more interesting. First, the hype of the Flash deck seemed totally off the wall. Sure, a lot of it is deserved, but the change in the format was really entertaining to me as a bi-stander article browser. Looking in the forums around the net, the entertainment value of Flash DOUBLED. It seemed to me that as many people who would casually be like "Yeah, I'll play in a Legacy GP" turned into a "Holy Cow, I can play THIS deck now? How awesome!"

Now I get to see how people are dealing with it. I've seen everything from people dumping 25% of their deck for Flash hate to people coming full circle and settling on builds very similiar to what they had before. I've played way more Legacy than I ever would before.

...but that's just me.

[Zherbus]

I gotta admit... for someone who isn't really into Legacy (again, I support it and everything, just have no means to play it), I enjoyed the GP coverage. All weekend long I was refreshing the WotC page looking for tidbits. I played in a Classic tournament saturday and it was the topic on discussion. It did me proud to see my teammates getting some mileage out of their hard work on Legacy. I sat around the forums useless (...but but who wants to talk about ANY other format? PLEASE?) to them with Legacy.

In Classic on MTGO, Hulk Flash will work tomorrow. Ah ha! I've been sitting on my playset and have been waiting for the chance to use them. Thing is: everyone else has too. I need to make my build the strongest in the mirror. With no FoW in the format, I'm thinking the faster the better. We'll see!

I'm playing in the first Vintage tournament in over two years tomorrow. Hopefully my coming out of retirement won't be an embaressment. Be gentle, Southern Metagame, I am old and brittle. I've not filled out a deck registration form in years. I've not gone to look at pairings, tacked to the wall while fighting the crown to look for just as long. I think my Magical mind has been oiled and refreshed, though. We'll see if I still have "it".

Wish me luck.

[Zherbus]

So, on MTGO Flash is doing nifty things so far. I'm having a lot of fun with it.

On to more important things: I played my new deck today!

I made t4, but had to leave home in a hurry.

I find the place just as I was about to give up. I meet the guys from Arsenal, and I continue my threats to make them new Avatars on TMD. Everyone I played was real cool. I'm really happy that my day was spent with people who didn't piss me off. I ask one of the guys working there to borrow a pen. He hems and haws for a minute and decides to grace me with the pens writing prowess. I promise him that I'll give him the pen back. I'm sure the 13 cents won't walk out the door with me.

I register up this list:
//Bones N Bots - 5cControl
    1 Strip Mine
    2 Tundra
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Tolaria West
    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Flooded Strand
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Black Lotus
//Core
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Mana Drain
    3 Chalice of the Void
    3 Duress
//Win
    1 Darksteel Colossus
    1 Gorilla Shaman
    1 Platinum Angel
    1 Crucible of Worlds
//Draw
    3 Skeletal Scrying
    1 Fact or Fiction
    1 Ancestral Recall
//Win conditions that aren't Tinker
    1 Balance
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mind Twist
//Tutors
    2 Cunning Wish
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Tinker

// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Gush
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Morphling
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Oath of Druids

I'd take the Tolaria West out, as well as the Titan in the board, I think. They did nothing all day long.

Round 1 - Dragon

Game 1 - I hose him with Strip Mine/Crucible and never see what he's playing, but I saw Living Wish so I assume some critter deck.

I board in Oaths.

Game 2 - He resolves Intuition and I wait anxiously to see what he's going to possibly get. 3 Bazaar... OH, it's suddenly clear as I'm holding Oath of Druids in my hand. He goes off with little resistance.

I board OUT Oaths and IN Leyline.

Game 3 - I hose him with a hardcast Leyline after some battling. It shuts him off enough to build up for a win.

1-0

Round 2 - R/W Land Tax/Seismic Assault thing

I don't remember the games too clearly, other than I was shocked to be paired up against THAT. I win twice via Tinker-Collosus and Time Walk.

2-0

Round 2 - UW Fish

Game 1 - was good, but I was getting clunky hands of stuff I couldn't cast. I was behind after he Ninja'd me and I could get enough mana to cast my junk.

Fine, I'll side in the Oath Engine.

Game 2 - I get Oath out and Morphling (HAHA!) does tricks all game long for the win. Oh phling, how I missed thee.

Game 3 - I keep a solid hand with decent mana. He goes first and drops a Tundra - Lion. I draw: Platinum Angel. Yuck, hate seeing that in hand. But no matter. He goes and Wastes my land. Ouch, but okay, I have enough in hand. I draw: Morphling. OH COME ON NOW. He goes and Wastes my second land. Ew. I draw: Darksteel Collossus. Seriously, WHAT THE HELL?. He goes and Wasteland #3 joins the party. I sit there helplessly looking at the fat and drawing no Brainstorms.

A bucket of yuck. Especially because in testing, all Fish variants turned out not to be a bad matchup despite my mana base.

I have to have a smoke. I smoke, reflect, and tell myself that everyone gets the horrible anus-bleeding in games sometimes. I console myself. I feel better. I have a great deck and I'm here to beat people with it.

2-1

Round 4 - Control Slaver? Maybe not Slaver? I have no idea.

Game 1 - He plays AK after AK after AK after AK. I draw FIVE lands in a row. I think about just going home.

Game 2 - I think I leylines and dropped Shaman which ate some stuff long enough for me to bring out Platinum Angel and win.

Game 3 - Let's see if I remember this correctly: He goes first and drops Emerald and Lotus and passes the turn. I drop Ruby and Shaman... no FoW. I remember him breaking Lotus for AK (Leyline was out btw), so I don't care. He uses his one remaining mana to Ancestral - I FoW it. I eat moxen and hit for 1 for the next 6 turns. He starts building up mana and drops the 2/2 Fork guy. I swing into him, he blocks, I Balance us to 0 cards in hand, 4 land (I have Crucible/Mox/Mox/Sol Ring and Academy, Dual, Dual, Dual), and 0 dudes. I topdeck Tinker - I go for Collosus (he's at like 7 life btw). He topdecks Echoing Truth. I draw Mox, replay a land and HARDCAST him. He's got nothing and I win.

3-1

Round 4 - Georgie with Ichorid

We draw in.

3-1-1

Top 8 - George with ICKorid

Now I have a theory about Ichorid... It'll win almost every game one against almost anything. And despite the hate people bring in against it, it only needs to steal one more game against you. In Vintage, that's a scary proposition. I fear Ichorid because despite my strong SB, it only has to get by it ONCE whereas I need to have it wreck him TWICE.

Now my wife calls... she needs me home ASAP. Dammit. I play though.

Game 1 - I actually have a hand that can win against Ichorid. Lotus, Jet, Emerald, Land, Land, Cunning Wish, Force of Will. The plan is to drop my acceleration, Wish for Vamp, Vamp for Tinker, Tinker out Platinum Angel which he has no maindeck answer to. BUUUT he plays first and opens with: Chalice for 0.

Ugh. I draw my next card and scoop.

Game 2 - Leyline out first turn and I defend it long enough to get Oath running. I get that going enough to get Platz and Collosus out. He finally gains me 6 life and starts dredging. He Ancient's my Platz and tries going for my throat. He doesn't get enough gas, and I win with Collosus.

Game 3 - Leyline out, no Oath. I sit back and defend the Leyline while gaining six. I hard cast Platinum and win for a top 4 slot.

I gotta wife to keep happy. I want another Mox Pearl, sure. But I like my wife better than Magic, so I give George the win and speed home.

4-1-1

I'm happy with the deck within a few slots. I don't know how long this build will be viable for, but I'd take this to a tournament tomorrow. If anyone wants to discuss the deck, I'd be happy to oblige.  Just be warned, I'll probably cut and paste something I wrote on Meandeck forums that I took time to write rather that rewrite it.

[Anusien]

The deck with all the AKs is a pet deck of that guy; he calls it Xerox and it's Izzet Guildmage combo.

The Slaver deck I beat round 1.  That was a horrible match by the way.  I have to mull to 4 to see any colored mana sources.  He opens with Seat of the Synod, Mox Sapphire, Offcolor Mox, go.  It's not until the Fact or Fiction that shows Crucible and then my Cabal Therapy showing TfK and Welder that I realize he's playing CS.
...
of course I won both games.

[DavidHernandez]

Man, long time since I've been on...I hope you're well!  Will the changes in the Banned/Restricted affect your build?  It would be interesting to see if multiple Vises or multiple Mind Twist's would add to a modified build.

Also, will the return of Gush move you to modify a couple of slots?

Dave.

[Zherbus]

Hey Dave!

No more Mind Twists for me, in fact it'll probably be removed if the Misdirection craze keeps up. I will likely overhaul it again if the metagame settles itself to something different. Everything changes so much, that XcControl really needs to be more flexable as deck options rather than an established list. The upside to that is that people can't prepare for it, the downside is that you really need to be painfully accurate as a meta predicter to build the right deck. I think it'll always be a fine deck choice if done correctly, but never a dominant strategy. So even when I win with a list, I don't expect the deck to stay the same the second I walk out of the tournament.

[DavidHernandez]

I think GaT is going to be revived.  Probably one of Steve's (Smmennen) or Ultima's builds will be a wrecking ball. Steve posted somewhere that he thought a Gush/Storm build would be strong, but then tested it and found he wanted Dryad's.  The return of Gush puts GaT right back where it was, with no loss of maindeck strength.

I'm not convinced that any control deck will be able to stop it.

Time to start testing.

Dave.

[Zherbus]

The more I evolve the deck, the closer it comes to Combo-control. I think 4 Gush GAT has to contend with a lot of things it hadn't had to deal with before. First off, the Storm mechanic. Though WhateverWorks seems to actually use that as a strength effectively. Secondly, Trinisphere. While it's a restricted card, it's a card it's going to have to deal with, along with it's Sphere of Resistance chronies to successfully work. Also, those builds who lean too heavily on Psychatog have to worry about stuff like maindeck Leyline. Which brings me to Ichorid. I don't think Ichorid will have that hard of a time adapting to GAT, but it should be more concerned with Gush Tendrils.

I think someone mentioned that a tier 1 deck was killed to make more tier 1.5 decks. I agree with this statement. I'll be hard-pressed to identify a true dominant force in Vintage on deck merit alone. I think that at this point, since nothing is as "sure of a bet" as tier 1 decks in the past, it'll largely depend on player preference. What this means for GAT is that unless the metagame provides good answers to it, it'll be all over the place. It's relatively easy to build (even more so than Ichorid in a 10 proxy environment as it uses commonly shared staples), it IS a great deck, and it's easy to play. That's not to mention that people have a lot of nostalgia for it.

Ichorid can't be properly hated out enough. It's pretty evident that it doesn't win a lot of tournaments, but it does well in the swiss. The key here is it's game 1 win ratio, which is grossly high. From there, all it has to do is get appropriate gas or have the opponent peter out in just one more game. The owness is put on the opponent to BEAT Ichorid the last two games. It's disruptive to the best laid plans of Vintage, but it's a good way to X-0 the swiss rounds. Winning the T8 is another thing altogether, as we've seen.

One other deck I want to mention, which isn't getting nearly enough press, is Staxless Stax. And by Staxless Stax, I really mean HatefulArtifact.dec since it doesn't (and I think SHOULDN'T) run Smokestack. This deck is going to be hitting people in the balls on a regular basis, until they work it in to their SB plan. My Control deck almost ignored it, and I knew it. In testing, I did well against it but I wouldn't have counted it among my good matchups. Staxless Stax has all of the tools for every matchup it wants, really. Not being prepared for it will be folly.

[Zherbus]

On Magic Online this week, we got a token of a WotC marketing gimmick called Gleemox. They were giving out one per person, but most of us have multiple accounts.

Gleemox
0
T: Add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool.
This card is banned.

But but but it WASN'T banned! It turned out to be Classic (and therefore Singleton, Prismatic, etc) legal. Among the fuss, a clanmate and I quickly set to breaking the hell out of it. I added it to a speed Flash list (yes, Flash is legal in Classic) and he set to beefing up Belcher.

Imagine Belcher in a format with 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Gleemox, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Simian Spirit Guides... and NO Force of Will in the cardpool! We traded the most random games, back and forth. I'd win out of the gate, then he'd win out of the gate. I'd live a turn thanks to Stifle, but he'd just untap and win or I'd go off first. Fun as hell... for a few hours.

Thankfully, as I've learned from the WotC boards, the card really was meant to be banned in Classic, so our time with insane acceleration is at an end.

EDIT: Here's my Flash list for MTGO Classic. I'm not 100% happy with it yet, but it's getting there.

4 Brainstorm
2 Carrion Feeder
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Chrome Mox
4 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
4 Flash
3 Flooded Strand
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Phyrexian Delver
3 Polluted Delta
1 Steam Vents
4 Vampiric Tutor
3 Watery Grave
1 Children of Korlis
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Pact of Negation
4 Protean Hulk
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Sky Hussar
3 Summoner's Pact

Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Force Spike
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Stifle

[Zherbus]

I want to point out this article to everyone. It says a lot of what I was trying to say in the discussion about rating decks and how power doesn't necessarily equate to the best, since other factors come into play (one of those being playskill cap and playskill level). I am utterly sure neither Mike or Sean read TMD, but I thought he did a real good job saying some of the stuff I was trying to say.

[Zherbus]

I keep hearing everyone complaining about the format quite often. And by 'the format', I mean THE format: Vintage. The only format that's truely different than the others.

I love it.

And right now, I'm really liking the way it's looking. I'm watching results and GaT, for example, is great without being totally ridiculous in it's dominance. Bomberman, a deck which I've dismissed for years, is now getting attention. I wrote in the Bomberman thread that I think it's success is more about people playing poorly against it, but I don't mean to take anything away from it. It's really not a bad deck at all. It's just not as good as people make it out to be, nor is it as bad as others make it out to be.

Welcome to Vintage, a format where the players know no happy medium. Vintage players: You know I love you... kind of... but most of you seriously need to put down the hyperbole and the conventional "wisdom", and take a fresh look. Are you declaring archetypes good or bad on the word of others? Are you relying on playing some of the worlds worst players on MWS? And lastly, are you saying deck X is bad according to it's last known list or on the principle that the deck strategy is no longer valid.

I've seen Tendrils decks be declared as dead, as well as Oath. I say nay! I think right now, there's just so much viable that it's probably the hardest metagame call to make to date. My metagame deck, XcControl, has gone from what I played in the report in a post above, to something totally radical in preparation for Gush, then back to a more normal state. I think so many dismissed decks are worth a second look.

My top underated deck picks, in no specific order are:

Oath - I really think this can be properly built and played to be as successful as many other accepted decks in the format. Fish, Bomberman, and Ichorid are among the cheapest decks in the format, which will make them more common.

Control Slaver - I think most of this starts by not playing bad lists. Honestly, just run Thirst for Knowledge and use those metagame slots wisely. Might be better than you think.

XcControl - Scroll up. The idea that there will ever be a point in time where a control deck finely tuned to beat the metagame won't be viable just doesn't click with me. *pumps fist*

---- Interlude ----

Notice all these decks are Mana Drain decks? Yeah, me too.

---- End Interlude ----

Staxless Stax - Seriously, keep ignoring it and watch it put up more wins.

That's all for now.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I want to point out this article to everyone

That was a great read, even though I don't know jack about T2.  Also, quoting Eddie Izzard and Ghost Busters in the same article is gravy.  I will say, however, that this is a much more difficult task in T1.  As my sig cites, vintage "outmodes tech really fast" this is because the breadth of card pool makes tactical choice circular.  E.g. you sideboard tormod's crypt against flash, so they board in virulent slivers, so you board in leyline of the void, so they board in revered silence, so you board in...tormod's crypt.  It's really kinda funny, and it's lots of fun trying to stay ahead of the curve, but sometimes you just catch the swinging door heading the wrong way.  I've considered these larger vector optimization schemes mentioned by Flores, but they're ridiculously complex.

I've seen Xdecks be declared as dead...
My top underated deck picks

One of the outgrowths of the cycle mentioned above, is that decks will be dead for 6 months to two years even, and then the right combination of opponents becomes metagame vogue, and they're back in the saddle (re: maybe oath now?).  You especially get an appreciation for this after you've been playing this format for a while.

[Zherbus]

You especially get an appreciation for this after you've been playing this format for a while.

Because I am new to it?

[Zherbus]

Since this is my blog and I can just ramble about whatever I want: I have decided to write, in sections, about my magic playing history. It'll be totally uninteresting to most (if not all), but it'll be fun for me to write in between rants about current M:TG.

Part 1 - The Very Very Very Beginning

Ever since 1990, I've been a pen-and-paper RPG gamer. It's as misconstrued as Magic to a common outsider. While people peg Magic as a childish fantasy game, we all know it's a deep strategy cross between chess, poker, and baseball cards. RPG's are more like a social game that only works with good friends and a healthy imagination. I was pretty addicted to it. The idea of 4 or 5 of my best friends hanging out until all hours of the night, killing Orcs, Trolls, and Dragons was just plain fun, especially for a high school kid who hasn't learned to drive yet.

Fast forward some years and lots of irrelevant stuff to 1993. In the basement of one of my friends houses, I sat among my normal group of AD&D friends after playing about 4 hours of a quicky pick-up game. They had been chattering about this new game: Magic: The Gathering. They wanted to play a group game, but up until this point I'd only heard about what it was. I just had no interest. I mean, the dork(ier) kids were all playing it, and I was already in enough of social trouble if anyone found out I played RPGs. There were only so many dark secrets I could have, and it didn't sound fun anyway.

Reluctantly, I tried it. They handed me a stack of 200 cards which was "the green deck". We went around the table, taking turns, and learning as I went. Craw Wurms were boring, but the Royal Assassin my friend across the table was much more interesting. After we finished the game, I merely shrugged and gave it the "eh, it's an okay game I guess." I eagerly went back to discussing anything but Magic. I'd seen my friends speak of the piles of cash they were spending on these things, and I just didn't want any part of that.

About a year later, one of those friends was staying at my house for the weekend. We didn't have much in the way of other players to get a AD&D game going, so we just hung out. He pulled out these stacks of cards and looked at me hopefully. I remembered the basic rules, and we were bored so I nodded. He had a pile of green cards, a pile of white, a pile of blue, a pile of red, and a pile of black, and then he had a much smaller pile which was "his".

As I played these monochromatic abortions against his somewhat tuned control deck featuring Hypnotic Specter, Tim, Burn, Urza lands, and Candelabra of Tawnos. I got stomped every time, since these piles really sucked. He, with a smug look on his face, offered to downgrade to one of the mono-color decks. I refused and asked instead to look at his Tupperware bin full of cards.

I made this monstrousity, almost entirely commons, but with a few uncommons. I don't remember the list, but it was probably 80 cards. It had burn, Dark Rituals, Drain Lifes, and the Initiate of the Ebon Hand to make my Drain Lifes work. It also packed Channel. We played some more, and I won some games. I offered to buy his junk cards, and $5 later I had "a deck". There was no more intent to owning it than having something of my own to play people with if it ever came up.

I did little else with Magic after that point, except some random games against people over the course of about 4 months. I remember buying some packs on my birthday and getting a Tundra and a Royal Assassin (keep in mind this was super hot back them). The game never progressed for me, as I was beating the same people over and over, my old friends who STARTED me on M:TG quit, and I wasn't seeing any new cards. It got stagnant.

The following fall, I ended up going to a card shop (they let you SIT there and play, how cool!) to play Marvel Overpower with my little brother. It took all of a day of seeing all the people playing Magic to get me interested again. I built a deck out of cards I had, and it was awful. It had Thelonite Druids, and that's all I remember. I got stomped by everyone repeatedly.

About a month into it, I made my first multi-color control deck (insert Darth Vader theme). It was more cool than anything: It had Angus McKenzie (you pay UWG and he makes a Fog effect). It also had the one-sided Wrath of God combo of Siren's Call and Festival. It was this deck that I took to my very first tournament. Here is the tournament report:

Round 1 - Someone with a Blue Aggro deck

Game 1 - I lose to a double Unstable Mutation'd Dandan with Counterspell backup.

Game 2 - I lose to a double Unstable Mutation'd Dandan with Counterspell backup.

It was single elimination, so that was the end of that until next week...

[MaxxMatt]

@About Control_X

I don't want to be too much precise here, because it is your "log" but feel free to comment at those lines if you want.
Think about your deck's skeleton but with:

Drains & FoWs.
Duress & Mindtwist.
Remands & Confidants.
Repeals & ControlBoard.
Restricted and Singletons.
A solid way to win ( TPC or TP_Platz or anything else)
Aside restricted, Drains and FoWs, consider the other cards as a 2of or a 3of.
 

What do you think about this options?
It seems to me that they can be "chained" to yours in order to build a good deck.




@About Gro vs. Control_X
Are you all sure that it is a 70%-30% for Gro? ...testing mine ad Zherbus lists, I can assure you that there are really a lot of chances to win preside and the Zherbus idea of adding Oath inside rise even more winning percentages for control_X


Max

[Zherbus]

I realize I may be taking your post way out of context, but the deck skeleton that you list and my XcControl skeleton are pretty different. I think as the metagame establishes itself into a clearer picture, it becomes easier to build a metagame deck. I've had some versions that do well enough, but with an uncertainty of what matchups I need to hedge against, I cannot recommend any proper build right now. I will say this though: I think that a control slanted GaT is the best deck right now, and I'm having a blast playing it. That said, I believe if the metagame becomes largely influenced by Flash and GaT, there are many options at our disposal.

Currently, I'm enjoying a non-XcControl build that I've stolen ideas out of Extended, old Standard, and MTGO Classic. Here's the last list I playtested:

// Disruption
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        3 Duress
        1 Echoing Truth
        2 Misdirection
// Search
        4 Brainstorm
        3 Sensei's Divining Top
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Burning Wish
        1 Extirpate
// Broken
        2 Psychatog
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
// Core
        4 Dark Confidant
        3 Counterbalance
// Mana
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Tolarian Academy
        2 Volcanic Island
        3 Island
        3 Underground Sea
        2 Flooded Strand
        4 Polluted Delta
SB:  1 Empty the Warrens
SB:  1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:  1 Duress
SB:  2 Gorilla Shaman
SB:  3 Sudden Shock
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Leyline of the Void

It needs tuning to be sure. But it's a rough idea that seems to perform well in testing.

A few notes on Counterbalance:

Versus GaT: Force of Will on top (remember, I have both on-top-of-deck tutors) counters Gush. Bouncing Sensei's Top counters all the cantrips if need be.

Versus Stax: Mana Drain, Confidant, DT, Counterbalance, Truth, Wish all counter 2Sphere. Chalice for two is a beating against me though.

Versus Flash: While Mana Drain and Countertop can be too slow, Duress has often been enough to delay until CB gets online. Once CB (or Mana Drain) are online, it has almost no chance. Reverent Silence is a great Mana Drain target, but it's a good way around Counterbalance. This, like many Flash matchups, devolve into "you got it?" hands. I'd have to make many other matchups bad, in order to make this one good.

Versus Ichorid: Counterbalance on game one can stop Chalice/Therapy if you're lucky. Standard rate applies here. Go to game two and do your best.

Fish: If you can get a Counterbalance to stick, the game should be yours. If you cannot, your game plan devolves pretty badly. Since I've included options for "combo'ing out", a well-timed ETW or Titan can spell trouble for them as well.

Again it's not perfect, and I have limited testing under my belt. It's done well so far, but if I decide to persue this kind of deck further then I am certain to change 3-5 slots somewhere.

[Zherbus]

I wrote an article for MTGO Classic, though after it got put up it's largely had it's meaning changed.

http://www.classicquarter.com/articles/010_070721.asp

Of course, after I write it, I find out we're getting basically MTGOChronicles and that really ought to totally change the whole format.

[Zherbus]

In response to seeing Ball Lightning and High Tide revealed on Masters Edition:

I feel the TOTALLY underwhelmed. Now that we got a statement about them not printing what we need for Legacy (which is a VERY short list for tier 1 decks, pre-Mirage), it kind of bums me out.

I didn't like Classic as Extended with Plows and Brainstorms (shortened to EPB).

I thought I'd like Classic as EPB with Flash. It was supposed to establish a standard of which decks could compete. And I don't like it.

And I'm just not real excited about EPB, with Flash nerfed, but now we have Force of Will. Berserk, Serendib, Armageddon, LD's Vault, and maybe Lightning Bolt are the only other cards that may make any impact at all, but likely not much.

If they overloaded this set with stuff that can't even make the cut in Extended, then what good is it for competative Classic?

High Tide, with no chance of seeing play until Saga? And with Saga, High Tide will be the LAST of our worries!

Sylvan Library, which no longer sees play in Vintage and only saw play in Extended with Abundance? I mean, why not just play Top?

Moat, which is much too costly.

Juzam, which is much too irrelevant.

Mirror Universe, which cannot win a single competative game.

Lake of the Dead, which is too all-in for such a low reward.

Thawing Glaciers, which wouldn't see play in Extended even if!

Forcefield... which requires a control deck to tap mana to lessen damage. I'd rather just sweep the 2/x's with Engineered Explosives.

Nevinyrral's Disk, which is debatively worse than EE and Deed.

Khabal Ghoul, Yavimaya Ants, Goblin Grenade, and Pheldagriff don't even deserve attention.

By my count, we have:

6 competative cards, likely only half of those will be in decklists we see outside of the casual room.

13 Totally useless to marginal cards, some of which will not be used until they give us the other blocks.

WotC, what is so hard about letting us have some cards that will actually DEFINE Classic. With duals, classic decks take on a distinction. With cards like Mana Drain and a slew of others, Classic turns into a format where the ignorant need not apply.

Right now, Classic is just a free for all. Bring whatever you feel like - it'll win some games.

Come on, enough with the crap cards.

[Zherbus]

Vintage State of Address and the Rule of Seven and Fifteen.

A snapshot at any given Vintage environment shows two decks as consistent tournament winners. They are Gro-a-Tog (GaT) and Flash. They are clearly the most powerful decks and un-objectively, along with Stax, and the absolute best decks in the format. They are the true tier one. But the real issue is how much games can be out of control of the pilots hands when facing the mirror or each other.

Before I continue on this thread, let me explain my thoughts that I call the Rule of Seven and Fifteen.

For purposes of this article, I am using the following decks as reference:

GaT by Luis Scott-Vargas, 2nd place Adventure games.

4 Brainstorm
4 Gush
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Mana Drain
2 Opt
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Cunning Wish
1 EchoingTruth
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's WIll
3 Quirion Dryad
1 Fastbond
1 Regrowth
1 Psychatog
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby

SB:
1 Berserk
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue elemental blast
1 Oxidize
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pernisious Deed
1 Enginered Explosives
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smother
4 Leyline of the Void

Hulk-Flash by Mike Saroca, Top 8 at Adventure Games
// Lands
    3 (ON) Polluted Delta
    2 (ON) Flooded Strand
    3 (B) Underground Sea
    1 (B) Tropical Island
    2 (P2) Island

// Creatures
    4 (DIS) Protean Hulk
    4 (FUT) Virulent Sliver
    2 (TE) Heart Sliver
    1 (AL) Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
    4 Merchant Scroll
    4 Force of Will
    4 Pact of Negation
    2 Misdirection
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Vampiric Totuor
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Chain of Vapor
    1 Echoing Truth
    4 Summoner's Pact
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    4 Flash
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mana Crypt

Consider the following scenarios:

In a match-up of GaT versus Flash, we have two decks with the following disruption suites:

Flash:

4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
2 Misdirection

GaT:

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Mana Drain
4 Duress

Both decks, as a point of interest, run 4 Merchant Scroll and 4 Brainstorm. In addition, both decks run 1 Mystical Tutor, 1 Demonic Tutor, and 1 Vampiric Tutor. GaT runs 2 Opt for cantrips effects where as Flash runs 4 Summoner’s Pact for fetching Hulk and acceleration.

Playing strictly by the numbers, GaT runs seven cards that Flash doesn’t care about. Also, if using the Rule of Seven and Fifteen, GaT should see a free counter in the top ten cards on average. Also note that GaT should see a free counter or Duress in the top six cards. Flash, by virtue of running ten free counters, should see one in the top six cards.

Given two scenario’s with no mulligan (for mathematic simplicity), let’s assume that it’s a given that both Flash and GaT have U1 to play with on turn 1.

In scenario A, GaT goes first and is able to either Duress turn one or Brainstorm into ten cards deep to find a pitch-counter if it doesn’t already have them. From there, GaT is in the game and merely needs to get the turns to progress past the Flash’s comfort zone of turn three. Given that Flash has drawn a free counter in its opening hand, it’s up to itself to either combo off with counter-backup. Or give GaT a second turn by tutoring up a missing combo piece. If it can go off this turn, then GaT’s pitch counters will be accordingly answered by Flash’s counter and Flash will win the game. If not, then GaT has to find a second disruption piece to bring Flash to the mid-game.

In scenario B, Flash goes first, and by the mathematics presented above, the chances are good that GaT has only one disruption piece, if that. The rest is up to the draws Flash has. If it’s got the combo, and the likely free counter, it will win here. If it has to tutor for a piece and give GaT a turn, then GaT must grab a second counter or timely Duress Flash’s key components.

This is the core mechanics of the match, and there’s very little more-than-common-sense plays that need to be made here. In fairness, GaT needs to play with more finesse in other matches, but this is the effect that Flash has on every pairing it has.

It’s turned a major portion of the metagame into a case of have and have-not’s in terms of draws. For every two Flash decks making top eight, there’s another two Flash decks who were “have-nots”.

Sideboarded games complicate this formula. Adding Leyline of the Void, a card worthless in this matchup if you have to cast it, adds another layer of “have it or no”. If GaT is fortunate enough to open its hand with Leyline, there’s an often greater chance that Flash will open with removal. It results in buying a turn, but not stopping the train altogether.

As GaT can function on most any hand it draws very well against the entire field, it’s been performing a bit better overall. In non-Flash matches, it often requires more skill to use which is why we see players like Rich Shay and David Ochoa consistently piloting GaT to high finishes.

So what are the real problems here? Firstly, Flash is having a Trinisphere-like effect on the format. It’s not invincible, but it consistently does well and has a major warping effect on the format.

Eric Becker said it first and said it best:

Even if flash can be hated out, which it definitely can be, the deck can just get skill less turn 1 kills with counter backup way to often to be legal. The card is very comparable to Trinisphere.

Merchant Scroll may be the problem here, and would definitely go a long way in knocking both GaT and Flash down a peg, while at the same time taking some momentum away from the decks exploiting the unrestricted tutor prior to Gush’s unrestriction. I think that’s most peoples default position on the matter, though I’d like to explore a restriction of Flash itself.

With Merchant Scroll gone, we’ll have less Ancestral Recall’s flying around for sure. But with Flash, it will still have enough tutor power to still perform near its peak. Instead of Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and all four Merchant Scrolls, it will be able to back fill one of those slots with Imperial Seal, effectively really only losing two tutors. I think that Flash has to be nailed here as well. It was never meant to be.

I am personally on the fence about Gush, though I'm confident that it was a mistake to unrestrict it. Still, I can't help but wonder how GaT would exactly perform in a different metagame.

[Zherbus]

So I had an awesome deck. I'll post Oath list when I have more time to talk about the card slots. I like it so much, I'll probably play the same list with only one slot changed in Atlanta. I lost a match against a really iffy Fish deck. I mean, it had no Wastelands, only one STP, and ran Mishra's Factory. Game one I just owned him. Game 2 he got a double Meddling Mage to shut off my Oath, which he didn't know the name of the card and I wasn't going to rules lawyer him. All I needed was one more mana to drop a bomb on him anyway, I just got stuck with out it the whole time. Ah well, game 3 I dropped an early Oath. I just needed to get a black mana for a tutor, or some wastelands, or crucible, or orchard to just win and move on. Instead, I just got eaten to death by Mishra's Factory until I was dead. Ah well, sometimes bad luck happens and you move on.

The next loss was a frustrating 3 minutes against Flash. Which couldn't hold up it's linear awefulness to make top 8.

That's very telling that the same Flash deck that opened with two turn one kills with counter backup didn't top 8. That deck isn't "hey, it's putting up half of the top 8's!" good. It's more like a ricochet that bounces around the room full of people actually duelling. It random hits people and they can't do anything about it. Sometimes it hits enough people to make it really matter, hence the occassional top 8. I wonder how many people got unnecessary "oops I lost" games against Flash at Gencon?

I mean, I sat down confident knowing I'd win any game against Flash where I'd actually get turns - my hands were consistent with this. However, my hands were irrelevant both games. C'est la vie. I'll go back on record in comparing it to Trinisphere in that, while not dominant, make the games way too random. Hopefully, Wizards will see that the mistake they've fixed in two formats needs to be fixed in the last format it's legal in.

[Yare]

You are justifiably upset about the Flash thing.  I mean, from your perspective, you got up yesterday morning and drove X hours only to lose to Flash (piloted by a 12 year old) in a matter of seconds, due virtually entirely to the luck of the draw.  This, in principle, is just not right.  And as you astutely point out, it's not like the deck is actually amazing by any objective standard; it just kind of wins when it decides it's going to win.  As was discussed by some of us after your loss and departure, I think this is the biggest indictment of Flash yet.

Thanks for coming up, Steve.  Your presence definitely added something to the event.  Besides, did you really wanna go to Indy and lose to Gush Storm instead?

[Zherbus]

I would KILL to play against Gush decks all day long! I was actually only worried about the Stax in the room, but never did I thought I'd have a round like that. And I enjoyed being there and meeting people. It just wasn't my day for playing is all. But yeah, I drove 11 hours total to lose to something out of my control. I'll just consider the format next time I make such a time investment.