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Author Topic: Storm Combo  (Read 9091 times)
ErkBek
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A strong play.

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« on: May 18, 2007, 12:23:01 pm »

I sold my online collection a while back, but I figure I could share my classic deck with you guys.

Land 13
6 Polluted Delta / Flooded Strand
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
3 Ancient Spring

Accel 17
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Cabal Ritual
2 Chrome Mox

Draw/Fixers 12
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Brainstorm

Tutors 12
4 Vampiric Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish

Protection 3
1 Defense Grid or Orim's Chant
1 Pyroclasm
1 Duress

Kill 3
1 Tendrils
2 Mind’s Desire


Sideboard 15
Wish Targets 8
1 Tendrils
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Sins of the Past
1 Firebolt
1 Pyroclasm
1 Eye of Nowhere
1 Shattering Spree
1 Duress
Normal SB cards (7)
1 Defense Grid
2 Shattering Spree (3 total)
1 Pyroclasm (2 on SB and 1 in maindeck)
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Duress (3 total)


This is more a turn 2-3 deck, that plays a lot like TPS in terms of setup. Sleazy repeatedly told me its the best classic deck he's seen, but I was never able to get to play in a event.
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dangerlinto
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2007, 12:40:15 pm »

Yup - it's a good deck.

It's just any kind of disruption at all sets it back to turn 3-4, and in classic, Aggro wins on turn 3-4.  Both Goblins and Affinity have you beat.

That's why Sleazy doesn't run it in the Eternal Struggle Smile
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DJ Catchem
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2007, 02:04:46 pm »

Absolutely...Danger is right on. 

I also beat myself up trying to run this deck versus the field for a while; it's a bit of a pet deck for me.  I have to chalk up some of my issues to the deck with some ridiculous luck (I know it sounds like a cop out, but explain losing to Affinity for a potential top-8 slot at ES Worlds when he opens on Land, Land, Duress, Duress, Duress, and then draws the fourth Duress and Mana Leak in the following turns...), but it's true that this deck can be easily set back a turn or two, and that puts it in the danger zone as far as speed goes.

I did write a pretty massive two-part primer on the deck too:

http://www.classicquarter.com/articles/005_070312.asp
http://www.classicquarter.com/articles/006_070321.asp

--->DJ
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Zherbus
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2007, 02:29:13 pm »

Classic is a wierd format. And by wierd, I mean there is way too much that's viable.

On one hand, I can play Affinity and almost guarentee a slot in the T8/T4 as long as I avoid certain matchups and the mirror. I can play Tendrils, but there's so much hate to wade through. I could play those hate decks, but then I'm probably losing to Aggro. I could play aggro, but then I probably lose to Rock... and so forth.

Until we get Tempest Block (Lotus Petal and Mox Diamond), I don't think the speed for Tendrils is going to allow it to be the monster that it is elsewhere. Will this change with FS (Pact of Negation)? I would say yes, but only after Hulk Flash is dealt with. My build is basically what Beckers is (Kobefan), but mines not as well tuned to be quite honest. I want more disruption, and Pact of Negation should fill that hole nicely. The format is right where Legacy is - most every archetype is about to be thrown out the door as-is.

That said, I also am liking Infernal Tutor. And my manabase is VERY close to what he has listed, except that I'm using Crystal Vein since it doesn't CIP tapped. I like that he's using less Chrome Mox, because they've been seriously gumming up my draws.
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DJ Catchem
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2007, 08:51:49 am »

Infernal Tutor is golden in this deck in the same ways the Burning Wishes are.  LED is just that good.

What I've found is that the deck seems to be much more resiliant once it gets away from the Chromatic Sphere/Star.  I find that avenue to be nearly totally un-necessary with the current builds of the deck; the correct mana is very easy to come by, and the Storm count is cake with Mind's Desire.  It also allows you to get away from the colorless mana-producing lands...I can't say enough about having access to rainbow lands in order to bring in Xantid Swarm post-board.   

As well, the Empty The Warrens alternative win condition allows the deck to sneak in under control quicker, and also gives the deck some flexibility with the necessary Storm count.  I really feel any list not running access to ETW is a sub-par list. 

You really see issues with Chrome Mox?  I love the card...it's one of the best available acceleration cards we have, and it is an easy free Storm count off Desire.  You're absolutely right about Lotus Petal, though.  I can't wait for that addition. 

--->DJ

 
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diopter
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2007, 11:07:44 am »

Tempest will bring Wasteland too... will this be a problem?
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DJ Catchem
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2007, 12:16:57 pm »

Tempest will bring Wasteland too... will this be a problem?

That's an interesting question.  Wasteland is much better in formats that have better artifact mana sources, like Vintage.  Even in Legacy, Wastelands are often hit or miss due to this.  But they are played, and I think the metagame players will notice that there are far too many non-basic manabases and make good use of Wasteland.  My Storm build is very fast currently, but uses nothing but rainbow lands, and would absolutely roll over to Wasteland with any hand barring a god draw. 

I see quite a few current decks that will need to re-tool their manabases as long as players adopt Wasteland.

--->DJ
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ErkBek
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A strong play.

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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2007, 07:59:39 pm »

DJ, its nice to see someone else gave the deck a shot. I really think that you are running a little too much disruption, 4 duress and 4 bounce is a lot. I believe that playing Vamp and Burning Wish along with a stable manabase gives you plenty of outs to hate. I never got to know the metagame very well, but I'm sure you could put together a sideboard to deal with control decks.

Also, my build is 13 land vs. 11. That's a pretty significant difference. My deck is basically a turn 2-3 deck.

Finally, Brainstorm is freaking awesome. Now that it's legal, you've got to give the deck another try.
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DJ Catchem
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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2007, 07:26:50 am »

DJ, its nice to see someone else gave the deck a shot.

Like I said, it's a pet deck of mine.  It's very cool to see other people also giving it a chance.

I really think that you are running a little too much disruption, 4 duress and 4 bounce is a lot. I believe that playing Vamp and Burning Wish along with a stable manabase gives you plenty of outs to hate. I never got to know the metagame very well, but I'm sure you could put together a sideboard to deal with control decks.

Originally, I ran five slots for disruption; the playset of Duress, as well as a single tutorable Chain Of Vapor.  What I found was that in the current Classic Online format, that is less than optimal.  I found that I wanted to have a piece in my opener every time, to enable my sideboard to really shine.  Decks in the format (at the time) tended to run in three different ways- Aggro-control with all permanent disruption (True Believer, Meddling Mage), control with instants (Chant, counters, Stifle), or discard.  Strangely enough, these types (pre-Flash, anyway) rarely mixed.  The third really owns this deck, and is the primary reason I tried to wick up the speed a notch; they can't disrupt me if I've just won, and if I stick around for turn three, I probably won't.  For the other two, though, the ability to have a virtual guarantee of a protection card in each opener is crucial, and eight slots lets you swap out the half that doesn't work (Duress against permanents, bounce versus control) to have a winning combination post-board every time. 

Granted, the Wishes and Tutors help too, but from hours and hours of matches and playtesting, this deck simply can't sit around and let the control player table CounterBalance plus backup mana, or let Haterade table Mage plus Believer.  My game plan is to disrupt with disruption, and win with everything else most of the time.

Also, my build is 13 land vs. 11. That's a pretty significant difference. My deck is basically a turn 2-3 deck.

On top of the Chrome Moxes, I simply never saw need to go above fifteen permanent mana sources.  If one in every four cards is permanent mana, I'll almost always have what I need for turn two.  I tried the extra lands for a while, and ended up flooded too frequently.  My design functions around ramping up to a Desire for five or six, and I found it essential to reduce the chances of flipping land.

Finally, Brainstorm is freaking awesome. Now that it's legal, you've got to give the deck another try.

Actually, this deck was designed a long time after the Coldsnap precons came out.  I dismissed Brainstorm very early in testing, as it just doesn't work with a rainbow mana base.  Without fetchlands to shuffle away the junk after a Brainstorm, I was finding myself in situations very often where I would not find a tutor, put back two marginal cards, and then basically get stuck Time-Walking my opponent for two turns, which was nearly always game over for me.  I found it far stronger to build the deck to be resiliant on the strength of the construction and tutors, and be able to run the rainbow manabase that would let me come in with amazing cards like Xantid Swarm post board.

The big thing here is that my perceptions of this deck changed *drastically* after actually getting experience in the Classic format with it.  Things I thought were golden fell flat, and things I would never normally do ended up unlocking the deck completely.  I ended up re-writing large parts of the primer after going back to test things.  It's a crazy format, and it truly does test your preconceptions of what should and shouldn't work.
 
--->DJ
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ErkBek
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A strong play.

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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2007, 12:42:06 pm »

DJ, I'm not sure what you are so afraid of running 8 disruption spells. True believer is terrible vs. you because all you do is just go off with Desire. Meddling mage can only name 1 card (usually desire) so you switch to tendrils combo or tutor up an answer. Duress isn't all that bad when you play infinite business + 4 Brainstorm + 4 Vamp. There were only 2 cards I was afraid of when playing the deck, Orim's Chant and Stifle.

Brainstorm is amazing. There is a reason why its an auto 4-of in every vintage combo deck and Serum Visions isn't in any. I think you'll find that with the fetchland manabase brainstorm is ridiculous. Brainstorm also lets you sit back, develop, and then find answers to opponents hate if needed rather than trying to be proactive about it (something combo hates doing). Finally, Brainstorm makes Infernal Tutor better.

One thing that we seem to disagree on is the number of Desires in the deck. I found 2 to be perfect, since you don't really want to draw desire, because its tough to cast without LED. Instead, you want to tutor up desire and cast it with LED. Playing 2 allowed me to draw the desire and still have 1 to tutor up.

The other thing I don't get is why you are running the rainbow manabase? You clearly value the Xantids on the board very highly, but don't most control decks still have something like Fire/Ice or Helix to kill them? I personally think that Defense Grid is better because they are much more difficult to deal with.
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DJ Catchem
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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2007, 06:11:45 pm »

DJ, I'm not sure what you are so afraid of running 8 disruption spells. True believer is terrible vs. you because all you do is just go off with Desire. Meddling mage can only name 1 card (usually desire) so you switch to tendrils combo or tutor up an answer. Duress isn't all that bad when you play infinite business + 4 Brainstorm + 4 Vamp. There were only 2 cards I was afraid of when playing the deck, Orim's Chant and Stifle.

I'm afraid of the Classic Online metagame.  =)

In all seriousness though, as I described in my primer, the deck as I designed it is all about numbers.  Any effect that runs as a eight-of in the deck will (on average) put one into your hand every opener.  I found that, running five disruption spells, I would have hands without disruption, and they would fold to any threat.  Running eight slots gives me the odds to have the answer I need every opening hand. 

Incidentally, as people got used to the deck, often the card named with Mage was Burning Wish, which is much more problematic.  And I'm pretty sure True Believer is a major problem for the deck if it goes unanswered, since you can't target your opponent with the Tendrils, forcing you to hope that you hit your bounce off the Desire or scoop.  That's the major reason to run so much disruption, and also a reason why adding access to Empty The Warrens is so strong.

Duress is very bad to face in my testing.  Brainstorm makes it better, but not much more than Vampiric Tutor, and both of those are terrible on the play.  Discard is really the main weakness of the deck; it's a bye for mono-black hand disruption.  (I know this from experience, sadly...)

Brainstorm is amazing. There is a reason why its an auto 4-of in every vintage combo deck and Serum Visions isn't in any. I think you'll find that with the fetchland manabase brainstorm is ridiculous. Brainstorm also lets you sit back, develop, and then find answers to opponents hate if needed rather than trying to be proactive about it (something combo hates doing). Finally, Brainstorm makes Infernal Tutor better.

I come from a long history of Vintage and Legacy, and I'm fully aware of the power of Brainstorm...but it tested terribly in *this* deck.  The only reason to play a deck like this is to be able to race anything else in the format, which means aiming for turn two.  For that reason, I got rid of the fetchland manabase (which I agree is great, especially with Brainstorm), because it wasn't as strong as just tutoring up the win.  In this format, this deck can't afford to sit back and look for answers or develop.  Goblins and Affinity win on turn four.  Control decks will have Chalice or Counterbalance up on turn three with backup.  Aggro-control decks will drop Chalice, then Mage, then True Believer, and be beating you with their prevention.  You simply have to strike before your opponent can set up; I figured out that my chances of winning in the face of one piece of disruption were much higher than two or more, so I redesigned to do just that.

One thing that we seem to disagree on is the number of Desires in the deck. I found 2 to be perfect, since you don't really want to draw desire, because its tough to cast without LED. Instead, you want to tutor up desire and cast it with LED. Playing 2 allowed me to draw the desire and still have 1 to tutor up.

I run the max allowed with room for one in the board simply because the deck lives and dies by Desire.  If you can only muster up a storm count of 4 before playing Desire, your chances of fizzling are pretty good.  If you reveal a Desire, you're almost guaranteed *not* to fizzle, so I wanted to maximize my chances of hitting another off the first Desire.  Besides, drawing one is not ever a problem since you can simply adjust your plan to Wish or tutor up a Sins Of The Past anyway.  Sometimes, it's easier on the mana that way to boot.

The other thing I don't get is why you are running the rainbow manabase? You clearly value the Xantids on the board very highly, but don't most control decks still have something like Fire/Ice or Helix to kill them? I personally think that Defense Grid is better because they are much more difficult to deal with.

The rainbow manabase makes it easier to run the deck in the first place; when every land will allow you to Vamp Tutor, or Chain, or Rite, you're never worried about looking at a hand of two Rite, Island, and Grave.  Anything goes.  As well, it opens up Xantid from the board, which proved to be golden over Grid for three reasons:

1) It costs one less and comes down on turn one, which puts your opponent on the defensive, forcing him to deal with it under fear of losing on turn two.  Great utility, great psych-out card.  And if they want to aim a Helix on turn two at my Swarm, I'm stoked, because they now have no mana to stop my win as soon as I untap.
2) Most opponents realize what they're facing game one, and board out creature hate for game two.
3) If the game goes later, the value of Defense Grid falls off dramatically, whereas Swarm is golden no matter.

When it comes down to it, you don't want to waste a Rite Of Flame turn one to play Grid, and you want to be winning turn two by Infernal Tutoring or Wishing for Desire.  Believe me whan I say that the chances of this deck *in this format* drop drastically past the second turn.  As a result, I built it to win by turn two.

--->DJ
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2007, 10:54:50 am »

Weatherlight will release Doomsday into the environment before Tempest releases Lotus Petal, and there's bound to be a Doomsday stack with Brainstorm, Street Wraith, Mind's Desire and either Beacon of Destruction, double Tendrils of Agony or Research and Development that wins you the game.

I can't wait for FS, Street Wraith is so ridiculous with Vampiric Tutor and LED.
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dangerlinto
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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2007, 09:23:37 am »

A Doomsday Stack that can't protect itself with Force of Will and doesn't contain Ancestral Recall to draw out all the cards will be pretty poor.  The CQ had worked on Doomsday lists but, honestly, we found them to be all completely unviable.
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DJ Catchem
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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2007, 09:50:51 am »

Especially in the face of Flash combo becoming viable.  With Doomsday, you've got a combo that is much slower and harder to protect.  It may even work out to be slower than Affinity or Goblins.

--->DJ
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2007, 05:34:05 pm »

I didn't mean adding DDAY to the MD, I meant adding DDAY to the SB as a Burning Wish target. You'd Burning Wish for DDAY when there's no Mind's Desire or LED in hand and then set it up to where a Brainstorm or Street Wraith could chain into the DDAY stack.
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