[Premium Article] How to GroAtog in the Pouring Rain

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14291.html

With the unrestriction of Gush in Vintage — alongside some other wholesale changes — Stephen has revisited the old Vintage powerhouse, GroAtog. With the full complement of Gush, plus the usual plethora of strong, cheap spells, does the deck still have what it takes to be a dominant force in the New Vintage metagame? Plus, Stephen also shares his thoughts on the DCI restrictions, and questions their policies going forward.

[Crankster]

Now I remember why I have premium again. Great article as always Smmenen

[pyr0ma5ta]

I assume that the list you present is similar to the one you posted in this thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33318.30 ?  I think I'm going to have to subscribe to premium, and it's all your fault, Steve.  ALL YOUR FAULT.

[twault]

If your decklist is different than the one you posted shortly after Gush's unrestriction, could you please post just the decklist for all of us non-premiums? Thanks, and as always, keep up the great work.

[Akuma]

Here you go:

GroAtog 2007
Suggested by Stephen Menendian on 2007-06-17

Maindeck:

Blue (22)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush
2 Misdirection
1 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Other (9)
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond
1 Regrowth

Creatures (8)
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Street Wraith
1 Psychatog

Mana (21)
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Submerge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rack And Ruin
1 Berserk

[MartinMM]

It seems that even tho this list is not many cards away from the standard list from a couple of years ago it plays alot different. Focus seem to be more on comboing out with Gush and fastbond to build up a huge dryad. The thing i liked about "old" GAT was its ability to drop an early dryad and control the game from there in some matchups(seems like a viable strategy still but the lack of mana drain/counterspell makes it harder), while in other matchups focus more on Gush/Fastbond/Tog/Berserk combo (here focus is more on building up a dryad instead of tog, maybe works just as well).

Don't you miss the additional togs, the mana drains/counterspells or the maindeck berserk?

Is this version really better than the 2003 version?

[paradigm]

MartinMM:

I can't speak for Stephen, but based on my experience with decks like this, here's my take on why Mana Drains don't help this deck so much.

Whereas Mana Drains require you to keep UU open to use, this deck wants to do anything but. In fact, because the deck relies on pitch-counters only (in the maindeck), it can feel free to Gush at will since most of its key cards require only two mana, only one of which requires a specific colour (presumably, if you have a Mox or Crypt or Lotus on the board, all the better -- since you only need your land drop for the turn to cast, for the most part, your key spells. In other words, it seems to me that the deck is trying to get by with as few active mana sources as possible, which runs counter to Drain.

(Note that the essential differences - or so it seems to me - between the old and new versions of GrowAtog go like this: -3 Sleight of Hand; -2 Misdirection; -4 Drain; -2 Psychatog; +2 Merchant Scroll; +3 Street Wraith; +4 Duress. Duress maindeck adds to the disruption; Street Wraiths go faster than Sleights and more Merchants lead to more efficient card draws.)

So a standard game might go like this: the deck either draws cards or Duresses turn one, turn two drops a Dryad with backup; and forces the opponent to deal with the immediate threat while outdrawing them. In this scenario, in turn two, you'd rather Dryad out than save UU open. The next turn, you'd gather draw cards and grow the Dryad, relying on Duress or pitch counters to keep you safe. (The same logic goes through if you drop the Dryad turn one.) The reasoning is that you'll draw through your deck fast enough to either go lethal or provide too many threats to stop. So it's focus is much more aggro-based than old GrowAtog, which was more Aggro-Control.

Further, so it seems to me, you're not trying to out counter your opponent; rather, you just want to drop a Dryad (or a Fastbond) and protect it. (Since there are so many cheap draws in the deck, I think odds favor you having the ability to play an early Dryad.) So it seems to me that the 4 Duress; 6 Pitch Counters serve this deck just right. I don't think this is, strictly speaking, a control deck. Finally, there are really no big drain sinks. I think Drain works best when it's not merely a counter, but when it fuels a draw engine. Unlike, say, straight Tog decks during Gush's restriction, GrowAtog never needed Drain mana to draw, and I think it's even truer now. So as much as I like Drains, I'm not convinced they belong here.

I think alvin6688's post in here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33318.30 addresses why less Togs and no maindeck Berserk well enough. Although I personally would consider axing a Regrowth for a second Psychatog. My worry there is that while the deck accelerates so quickly, it takes a while (in terms of T1 time) to become lethal.

Hope this helps some.

[Moxlotus]

I disagree on your prediction of the GWS Long v. GAT match.  I find it in favor of GWS Long because GAT is a lot like MDG.  MDG and GAT both have a bunch of pitch counters and Scroll to find them.  That's the defining charateristic of MDG which made it a beast and what made it crush Pitch Long.  But GWS Long was build to beat MDG.  The differences are GAT can put down a guy on turn 1 and ride him to victory while stopping you from winning--but it can't win out of nowhere without a time walk to get around summoning sickness.

[Imsomniac101]

The key difference between GAT and MDG are Duresses over Drain, which I feel put GAT over the top of Long

[MartinMM]

Further, so it seems to me, you're not trying to out counter your opponent; rather, you just want to drop a Dryad (or a Fastbond) and protect it. (Since there are so many cheap draws in the deck, I think odds favor you having the ability to play an early Dryad.) So it seems to me that the 4 Duress; 6 Pitch Counters serve this deck just right. I don't think this is, strictly speaking, a control deck. Finally, there are really no big drain sinks. I think Drain works best when it's not merely a counter, but when it fuels a draw engine. Unlike, say, straight Tog decks during Gush's restriction, GrowAtog never needed Drain mana to draw, and I think it's even truer now. So as much as I like Drains, I'm not convinced they belong here.

Thanks for your answer, but still i'm not sure if this playstyle is the best. The problem as i see it is that a starting hand without a Dryad is not a very good starting hand if this is how the deck is built even though the amount of cheap draw. In the old GAT if you did'nt have an early dryad you could just counter some spells, build card advantage, find a tog and gush-zerk for the win. Although this still is possible i really think that 2003 GAT > 2007 GAT if you don't have a Dryad in your starting seven.

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that most people just remember the games where GAT won on the second turn after gush-bond-ywill crazyness. Most of the games were not played out like that (well, gush-bond-ywill crazyness occured often, but the deck did not force it to happen as soon as possible). The 2007 GAT decks reflect this i think and really try to force the deck to be aggro-combo and leaving the control bit out.

I might be wrong, and i really need to playtest more, i just wanted to share this observation with other people that maybe have become blinded by the Gush crazyness.

[paradigm]

Thanks for your answer, but still i'm not sure if this playstyle is the best. The problem as i see it is that a starting hand without a Dryad is not a very good starting hand if this is how the deck is built even though the amount of cheap draw. In the old GAT if you did'nt have an early dryad you could just counter some spells, build card advantage, find a tog and gush-zerk for the win. Although this still is possible i really think that 2003 GAT > 2007 GAT if you don't have a Dryad in your starting seven.

So it seems to me, either a Dryad or a Fastbond adequately sets you up. So, you have five cards you want in your first hand, 60 cards in the deck. So then, the question is what the odds are of getting one of these five in the first seven draws. Let that probability be P1.

Let the probability of drawing Ancestral or Brainstorm or Street Wraith be P2.

P1 ~ 47 percent (52 percent on the first draw)

P2 ~ 64 percent

Ancestral and Brainstorm each give you three draws, which would raise the probability of drawing a Dryad to 61 percent (65 percent given one additional draw -- say if you started second). So generally speaking, given that I have sufficient draw early on or a Dryad, I like my chances, and the odds seem fairly good that such a situation obtains. If you lack good draw or Dryads, then surely you consider a mulligan. But that doesn't seem like a big shocker. And given the fact that you have such strong draw, I'm not sure if the downside is so big.

But suppose you don't have a Dryad in the opening hand. Old GrowAtog tried to counter and draw until it could drop a bomb. It had 4 Brainstorm; 3 Sleight of Hands; and 1 Ancestral to go with 4 Gush. A potential difficulty: unless you had Fastbond; it seemed to be the case that you often wanted to keep up UU for a counterspell, which makes Gush's alternate cost more difficult. In the case now, since one land  is often enough to keep everything in the deck active (I think that this is the reason why Gush is so huge in the deck; not necessarily the combo of it and fastbond); you have all your draw at your disposal since you're mana-lite -- making it easier to (a) find your bombs; (b) stock up on Duresses or pitch-counters. I don't see this as such an inferior gameplan, or even inferior at all.

I might also wonder this: early versions of Gush-GrowAtog spotted something like 4 FOW; 3-4 Misdirection; 3-4 Counterspells/Mana Drains. So something like 11-12 disruption spells. The version Stephen proposed has 4 Duress; 4 FOW; 2 Misdirection. So you're really only losing 1-2 disrupting spells.

So I have two questions

(1) If you add in 4 Mana Drain, what do you remove?
(2) Do the metagame shifts since GrowAtog originally debuted is different, does this lend preference to Stephen's proposal?

I might also wonder this: early versions of Gush-GrowAtog spotted something like 4 FOW; 3-4 Misdirection; 3-4 Counterspells/Mana Drains. So something like 11-12 disruption spells. The version Stephen proposed has 4 Duress; 4 FOW; 2 Misdirection. So you're really only losing 1-2 disrupting spells.

[MartinMM]

Paradigm:

I think we mix up the discussion here (probably my fault). It's not only the Mana Drains that helps the control-first-combo-later gameplan but also the additional togs and maindeck berserk. And keeping UU open was not much of a difficulty because as i said earlier, you didn't really try to force the deck to be as fast as possible. Sometimes you held on to your gush so you could use it as Wasteland protection or if you already made your land drop for the turn. But maybe this just is a matter of playing style, i haven't played that much against the new metagame of flash and ichorid, so its hard to tell.

To answer your questions.

1) I'm not sure that 4 mana drain is the way to go, maybe 3 och even 2 might be the right number. If i would cut something from the list presented earlier in this thread i would probably cut regrowth, merchant scroll 3 and 4. Maybe the forth duress. Lotus Petal and Strip Mine, the street wraiths (but well, then i would include sleight of hand instead). Those are the cuttable cards in my opinion.

2) Hard to tell, there are significant differences for sure. Back then you faced a lot of blue based control decks and workshop aggro. None of which are any part of todays metagame (after gifts restriction, even though my limited playtesting with a mind twist control deck showed some promise ). Ichorid is a completely new kind of deck and combo is faster and more played. So, i really don't know . But i think it is safe to say that the 2007 metagame is much faster than the 2003 metagame. So maybe thats why mana drain doesn't fit. But still, wouldn't more togs and maindeck berserk suit a faster metagame?

I'm not saying that "this is the way it should be built!!", because i have no idea, i just wanted to ask the questions that came to my mind.

[Meeee]

The key difference between GAT and MDG are Duresses over Drain, which I feel put GAT over the top of Long

I disagree, having played a version very similar to to MDG against my roomate with 2.5 color long(very close to GWS) even after board when I got to bring in 4 duresses the matchup only ever felt 50/50 at best just because of the high threat density of the deck.  Yes Duress is good against them but the card you Duressed is something they didnt even spend resources on (unless they tutored for it) and they will almost always have another threat.  Also Misdirection is almost completly dead in that match, only really a card to pitch, and something that forces the opponent not to play Ancestral Recall.

[Sam101]

Has anyone considered cutting Tog for an empty slot?

9/10 times I draw him he is a "win more" card, he costs 1UB, and he is only situationally effective.

Sam

[Purple Hat]

sam, I think that's the reason to play 1 and only 1.  about 75% of the time tog is either a win more or a any threat would do type card, but about 25% of the time tog is the right answer either to break out of a midgame stall or because you've got gush but no fastbond and a 7 card hand and want to go off. 

[Smmenen]

I assume that the list you present is similar to the one you posted in this thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33318.30 ?  I think I'm going to have to subscribe to premium, and it's all your fault, Steve.  ALL YOUR FAULT.

I accept full responsibility. ;p  Welcome to SCG Premium - I hope you find it worthwhile. 

The discussion between paradigm and MartinM is fascinating.   Good points are raised on both sides.   However, I think that paradigm probably has the better arguments simply for reasons he's already stated at length.    It is important to have viewpoints that raise fundamental questions such as what martinM has done.   Sometimes the unexamined assumption is the most problematic of all.   There is one other point: MartinM suggests that a hand without Dryad is terrible.  Against lots of deciks, it's not a problem to have a hand with Duress + Scroll.   You can find Ancestral quickly and just try to combo out with Fastbond + Will.   From that position, it is a simple matter to play a Tog, Time Walk, and Berserk over. 

[Scyther]

Smmenen: I'mn ot into premium so excuse me if you allready explained but:

Why do you think the R-Splash is the way to go? Of course: Artifact Mutation is TEH St4xx hoser, but with only 2 permanent (Volcanic + Ruby) red Mana sources its not easy to cast it constantly, even postboard.
Don't you think Flux, Oxidize, Hurkyls Recall is more than enough?

[Disburden]

You also need to remember that a red splash is very important after game one in the Mirror match. You get access to REBs and, if you want, pyroblast to combat an opposing Gush. Think of it this way, if your opponent has REB in the sideboard and you don
t for the mirror, you're going to be frustrated. You can also put in cards like Shattering Spree/Rack and Ruin versus Stax, not just Artifact Mutation.

I, for one, am really glad for the new B&R list. It seems like we may have a less Yawgmoth's Will dominated metagame in the future. We get to see more Stax decks, Flash, Fish, and Bomberman.

[Implacable]

You also need to remember that a red splash is very important after game one in the Mirror match. You get access to REBs and, if you want, pyroblast to combat an opposing Gush. Think of it this way, if your opponent has REB in the sideboard and you don
t for the mirror, you're going to be frustrated. You can also put in cards like Shattering Spree/Rack and Ruin versus Stax, not just Artifact Mutation.

I, for one, am really glad for the new B&R list. It seems like we may have a less Yawgmoth's Will dominated metagame in the future. We get to see more Stax decks, Flash, Fish, and Bomberman.

Is that a good thing for its own sake?  Yes, certainly.  Yawgmoth's Will is a non-skill oriented card (mostly) that, when ripped, Just Wins (TM).  However, what is causing this move away from Will?  These decks that do not use Yawgmoth's Will are either absurdly fast combo decks (Ichorid, Flash) or traditional hate-style decks (Stax and, I would argue, Bomberman).  Is the format evolving into a combo v. the world dichotomy?  It may well be so.  What brought us to this juncture?  I would point to Steven's favorite tutor.  Merchant Scroll is just sick.  I'm not saying that it should be restricted (after all, other powerful tutors like Grim Tutor and Intuition remain legal), but my testing of the 6/20 format so far has a lot of the decks opening with Mox, Land, Scroll.  It's just something to keep in mind, when Flash, Mean Deck, GAT, Gush Tendrils, and Bomberman all run the same two-mana tutor.

[Smmenen]

Another thing: Post board most decks are going to be sbing in alot of cards against you.   

It's essentially true of every deck in Vintage right now - whether its Ichorid, GAT, FLash, or hte Mean Deck, but your game ones are very different from the post board.   
I think you really want at least 3 Rebs/Pyros in the SB for the mirror, the mean deck, long, Flash, Hulk Smash (togs), and lots of other decks.   I would even sb out 1-2 Dryads if I had to for some Rebs (especially against a deck like Flash). 

[Fred The Ev]

Steve, you said you would answer questions about the sideboard in the forums, so here goes.
Why is Yixlid Jailer in this deck over Leyline of the Void?

[Purple Hat]

Steve, you said you would answer questions about the sideboard in the forums, so here goes.
Why is Yixlid Jailer in this deck over Leyline of the Void?

gat will never, EVER, cast leyline of the void.  Yixlid Jailer is just as much of a beating for ichorid, yet you can cast it if you draw it in the mid game, and it beats down.  siding in 4 dead cards is way worse than siding in 3-4 creatures that are black, blue, red or white.  Jailer is also good because gat doesn't like to mulligan much, usually relying on it's amazing draw/search suite to find whatever it needs so jailer is a great fit with that because he's a good turn 2 play.
Mindcensor is a beating for this deck.  you're playing 3-4 tutors, 5-6 fetchlands and 4 scrolls depending on build, thats 12-15 cards that are gonna be shut off by mindcensor, which hurts a bunch.  What answer have people been finding most useful vs this card?

[Tiki Walker]

Mindcensor is a beating for this deck.  you're playing 3-4 tutors, 5-6 fetchlands and 4 scrolls depending on build, thats 12-15 cards that are gonna be shut off by mindcensor, which hurts a bunch.  What answer have people been finding most useful vs this card?

Hello, there.

If the mana base can somehow be reworked a little bit to accomodate more red mana, I think Sulfur Elementals are quite good to solve the Mindcensor problem, albeit the solution is a very narrow one. However, I doubt that there is a need to rework the maindeck configuration to accomodate some Elementals in the maindeck, maybe the Elementals are just another sideboard materials.

Against hordes of white small creatures including popular multicolor creatures such as Meddling Mages, I think that Elementals in multiples will also be able to help the board position.

Thank you.

[Vegeta2711]

Sulfur Elemental is pretty awful in a deck with like 20 mana sources, but a single easily fetchable Fire/Ice if you run red is a nice easy answer. Not amazing, because odds are you'll still be tutoring for it, but at least you can find it easily before Mindcensor comes down.

[MuzzonoAmi]

If you're not running Red, and are still afraid of Meddling Mage and his fishy friends, you can always board Virtue's Ruin.

[pyr0ma5ta]

If you're not running Red, and are still afraid of Meddling Mage and his fishy friends, you can always board Virtue's Ruin.

How is this any better than Massacre?

[Necrologia]

If you're not running Red, and are still afraid of Meddling Mage and his fishy friends, you can always board Virtue's Ruin.

How is this any better than Massacre?

Ruin hits Grunt as well. Massacre is probably better for being free though. A single grunt really shouldn't be an issue if you have a Dryad on the board.

[Tiki Walker]

Sulfur Elemental is pretty awful in a deck with like 20 mana sources, but a single easily fetchable Fire/Ice if you run red is a nice easy answer. Not amazing, because odds are you'll still be tutoring for it, but at least you can find it easily before Mindcensor comes down.

Hello,there.

       If it is considered that 21 (22 if 2 cantrip effect from 3 street wraiths can be regarded as an addition of 1 virtual mana) mana sources is too scarce to support any Elementals be it in the maindeck or in the sideboard; and also not to put any more stress on the off-color requirement, can then Darkblast be considered? It is black already, and the casting cost is cheap enough. It won't tax much on the color and overall casting cost.

Fire-Ice can be fetched with more tutors this deck has, offers 2 divisible damage, can act as a cantrip, and it is also a blue card that pitch to FOW, the advantages of using Fire-Ice are clear. But Darkblast offer recursive anti creature, can feed the graveyard prior to Yawgmoth's Will, or just simply to feed Psychatog.

Of course Darkblast also still possess the same problem like Fire-Ice, both of them still need to be tutored up, whether they are in the maindeck or in the sideboard, somehow to access them we must tutor.

I haven't been on the active T1 scene lately, and so haven't experienced or seen yet how people will react if somehow they believe their opponent is packing/holding mindcensors that will put a dent in their gameplan. Do people pro actively tutor up their anti Mindcensor ASAP? I am very interested to hear any opinion regarding this possibility.

Thank you.

[wethepeople]

If you're not running Red, and are still afraid of Meddling Mage and his fishy friends, you can always board Virtue's Ruin.

How is this any better than Massacre?

Ruin hits Grunt as well. Massacre is probably better for being free though. A single grunt really shouldn't be an issue if you have a Dryad on the board.

As long as you've played one other non-green spell in addition to Massacre, Dryad should have no problem trampling over the opposing 2/2 Knight Errant. So once again, Massacre strictly seems better.