5C baghdad bob v3.0

[vroman]

I top4d small tourney today and won some dual lands. 16 players:
5 gush variants
3 goblins
3 oath
2 workshop (5c stax, R-aggro)
1 wu-becker fish
1 forino suiblack
1 baghdad bob (me)

I ran this:
4 factory
4 bloodmire
3 badland
1 scrubland
1 plateau
3 mox RBW
2 black lotus petal
2 mox chrome/diamond (chrome solid, diamond not so much)
1 volrath stronghold (completely irelevent)
1 riftstone portal
1 tomb yawgs
4 bazaar
4 Dconf
4 lavaman
4 jotgrunt
4 extirpate (never cast once all day. but then there was no ichorid)
4 plowshare (couldnt draw these enough. I want condemn main)
4 thoughtseize
2 duress
2 moxmonkey (mana denial still not good)
3 mog fan (mainly for ichorid/flash. totally absent)
1 d-consult
1 vtutor
1 balance
side
4 sudden shock (if these had been condemn, I would have won this tournament)
4 thorn amethyst
4 hide/seek
3 heretic

this tourney proved to me the rise of tarmogoyf is a reality in all formats, even vintage. if I had paid attention to the metagame lately, even if I was still expecting some amount of flash and ichorid, I should have made these changes:
main
-1 volrath stronghold (techy and overly expensive for my strategy)
-1 mox diamond (basicaly unusable. can we please either unrestrict this or de-errata it?)
-4 extirpate (I have never flat out won a game w this card other than vs ichorid. also the odds of hitting cards in hand is quite low, which is the only time it generates card advantage parity. for what it does, leyline Im forced to conclude is the superior card. leylines only drawback is the Dconf risk)
-2 moxmonkey (outside of hardcore stax package, not good enough, even w pseudo-resistors from board)
+1 riftstone
+4 condemn
+1 fanatic
+1 duress (or maybe 2 heretic main)
side
-4 sudden shock (only really superb vs magmoon, which should be managable via lavaman/fanatic)
+4 leyline

brief report
rd 1 greg leonard w UW fish
game 1
after explaining on the car ride down how its virtually impossible to deck w demonic consultation, I proceed to totally whif on consult for bazaar and end up resolving turn 1 confidant w 5 cards left in library. I am holding jotgrunt, and analyze my rfg pile to determine there are 2 white mana sources left in my 5 card stack. thus, somehow theres a possibility between bazaar and grunt I can clock him out before losing grunt and decking. that is, if enemy does absolutely nothing to disrupt. he promptly plowshares jotter, and on to game 2. I count this as a total fluke, and will continue running and casting Dconsult wo fear. it still the best tutor in the deck.
game 2
I keep mediocre hand w no early plays. but I get unanswered lavaman+bazaar online to decimate his team, stabilizing slightly below 10 life.
game 3
on the basis of small amount of testing, Ive determined that thanks to my new extremely low curve, and the addition of 2 on color neo-moxes, its acceptable to keep a hand w only bazaar and no mana. in this game I do so. my endstep bazar finds riftstone, allowing me to plowshare enemy's first man. on my turn 3 I bazaar into badland, and then rip him apart again w Dconf engine and premium removal.

rd 2 goblins
game 1
turn 1 Dconf into lavaman and bazaar. wall of jotters prevents brokeness. gg
game 2
keep slow hand w no 1 drops. get run over. should have mulled.
game 3
dicey game. I masterfully topdeck balance when I had lone jotter staring down 4 goblins backed by a full enemy grip. 6 for 1 gets the job done.

rd3/4 draws

top8 red workshop aggro
game 1
I set up an impressive board of 2xDconf and lavaman, then get Fd in the A by trike. I have bazaar and almost stabilize, but dont draw a single plowshare to answer juggernaut+fire/ice.
game 2
he has turn 1 jens, which I am afriad to trade w in combat, bc I still am under the impression enemy has trike team lurking in his library. in fact, welder is really underwhelming in this deck, the only reason I was really concerned about killing welders, is I didnt want him welding out solemn to draw cards that might be trike. I was instead content to keep taking hits for 2, and concentrating removal on welders, and defense on jugs. lots of ground combat. I overextend and almost get killed by a timely wasteland on my factory defense team. but I finaly draw heretic and neuter his board at 2 life. I was petrified of enemy topdecking trike ftw, bc I assumed he was running 3-4 but found later he only played one. enemy uses bazaar quite poorly throughout this match, continualy putting irelevent cards on the table, instead of saving up hand as a cycling resource.
game 3
he has turn 1 leyline and chalice@1. I just play a land. enemy gets turn 2 resistor. I play land. he plays turn 3 resistor#2. I play land and a mox. he plays turn4 resistor #3. I play land and another mox. then he does nothing for a long time, while I get my 5th mana and tap out for Dconf. this draws me bazaar, which draws me heretic. meanwhile enemy gets ravager and eats all his own resistors. he misplays by ravaging his own chalice to get welder down, but this opens window for me to plowshare. the game totaly unwinds for enemy after this. Im down to 4 life from Dconf and ravager beats, so Seek, and find his lone trike. home free!

top4 Cole gush-goyf
plays neither dryads nor psychatog, so cant really call it GAT anymore. some really uninteresting games, where hes hopelessly mana screwed game 1, gets turn 1 tinker-dsteel game 2, then game 3, I severely rue not having Condemns against team Tgoyf.

[LotusHead]

enemy uses bazaar quite poorly throughout this match, continualy putting irelevent cards on the table, instead of saving up hand as a cycling resource.

Very incitful report.

This is why I suck at piloting UbaStax. (I'm ok with 1 in The Gilded Claw.)

[rkmancer]

I severely rue not having Condemns against team Tgoyf.

It indicates 4 plowshares and 4 thoughtseize wasn't enough??

Q : Against Gush variants deck, is it the best way to drop Thorn of Amethyst early no matter what?

Too bad you didn't match oath that day. .I'd love to know how this lava deck did against it. .

[Lou]

Seeing that you whiffed on Demonic Consultation brought a smile to my face.

[vroman]

Seeing that you whiffed on Demonic Consultation brought a smile to my face.

long overdue karma indeed.

[Guli]

Cool report vorman, but don't be too hasty to get 4x condemn main deck because of 1 tourney. 8 stp effects and to be honost (and condemn is strictly worse) is a bit overdoing it i think. It all depends on the meta of course. If you expect a lot tarm or creatures in general sure then it is justified to have multiple creature removals.

Dem Cons is one of the best cards in the deck. Chances that what happened to you are seriously low. And it already happened to you so it won't happen again :p

[vroman]

I played the same main deck in the main events of both days at chicago. I went 5-2 day 1 and missed top16 on tiebreaks. I did poorly day 2, but then made some changes and split a side event.

4 bloodmire
4 factory
3 badland
1 scrub
1 plateau
1 tombyawg
2 riftportal
3 RBW mox
1 chrome
1 petal
1 lotus
4 bazaar
4 Dconf
4 lavaman
4 mogfan
4 joter
4 plowshare
4 thoughtseize
3 duress
2 condemn
2 sammy p-curtain
1 vtutor
1 dconsult
1 balance
side
3 heretic
4 H/S
4 amethyst
4 resistor

samurai is ok as 2of, bc:
-WW is slightly awkward even w 2xriftportal
-the ability is redundant, so no need for multiples
-his ability is only really relevent against ichorid (and dragon?)
-in the ichorid matchup hes a brickwall, so its worth gamblng on consultation

condemns were underwhelming. I tested them passably, but neglected to consider how vulnerable they are to duress/thoughtseize. slaughter pact would be better, and definitely sideboard.
lavamancer may have to be sideboard also. fish was not overly present, and the few fish decks that I encountered presented more pressing threats in the form of drednaught.
resistor effects were useless. I probably wont run either in the future.


for a side event day 2 I made the following changes. I was inspired by teammate Nick Calcatera who was improbably 4-0 w dawn of the dead at that moment, and would go on to the finals w the deck, despite playing abysmally.
main
-4 grunt
-3 duress
+4 squee
+3 zombie infestation
side
3 heretic
4 H/S
4 duress
4 leyline

I was extremely impressed w Squee, a card I have been hating on since the 80s. he shines obv as bazaar filler, but simply having recuring blocker v tgoyf et al was inspiringly good. hardcast squee is usually a joking last ditch, but its actually potent as default anti-big-aggro strategy. zombie infestation was strictly win-more, and not worth running w/o life-loam. unless I add green back in, I wont run the zombie factory. infestation replaced joter as the muscle of the deck, so joter goes back in.

this leads me to a question:
how does this archetype beat combo?
I lost to empty gifts every time I faced it. what can work? 8x resistor? 8x duress? leyline? I think the method is heavy discard plus powerful aggro. permanent based disruption (resistors/leyline) are too prone to bounce. joter for swift clock, and either dconf or bazaar+squee to keep digging for duress in spades. Seek helps too.

so what I will run in the future is
22 mana
4 bazaar
4 Dconf
4 squee
4 joter
4 mogfan
4 thoughtseize
4 duress
4 plowshare
3 tutor-balance package
2 sammy
1 B pact
side
4 heretic
4 H/S
4 lavaman
3 B pact

[Liek]

this leads me to a question:
how does this archetype beat combo?
I lost to empty gifts every time I faced it. what can work? 8x resistor? 8x duress? leyline? I think the method is heavy discard plus powerful aggro. permanent based disruption (resistors/leyline) are too prone to bounce. joter for swift clock, and either dconf or bazaar+squee to keep digging for duress in spades. Seek helps too.

In Chicago I played a list similar to the old 5 color version that you made (that I've played a couple times, here.) I had opposite results, it did very well against Gush and Storm decks, while being very soft against Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought, and Workshop. My weakness against those decks had a lot to do with the manabase (City of Brass eats a Wasteland and that is,) lack of answers to opposing onboard threats (only 4 Plow main, and some lavamen,) and lack of large beats to end the game (I, in stubborn arrogance, played Aven Mindcensor instead of a reasonable creature.) Your deck doesn't have any of these problems.

So, the deck I played was pretty good against Gush and Storm, and bad against everything else, and yours wasn't. It seems fairly easy to change the sideboard a bit of your most recent list, sideboarding something like 3 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Aven Mindcensors, and 4 Hide/Seeks. Board enough cards so that Fanatic and Plows can all come out. Aven Mindcensor probably isn't the right card either, maybe 2 Extirpate might be ok alongside 8 Duress.

I still think the best way to fight combo is to attack their mana, but Chalice of the Void and Wasteland aren't as effective at doing that as they used to be.

[vroman]

Taking the dawn of the dead archetype and fusing it w my old 5c baghdad bob list, I played this at Blaines going away tournament and split for the mox jet.

4 city brass
4 mishra factory
2 badland
1 tomb yawg
2 riftstone
1 strip
7 mox (yes brought back diamond, it actually worked today)
1 black lotus (almost want to cut this. never used it once all day. discarded to bazaar every time I drew it, even turn 1)
4 bazaar
1 maze ith
4 Dconf
4 squee
4 plowshare
4 thoughtseize
3 duress
3 lavamancer
3 jotun grunt
1 life loam
1 cropper
1 recall
1 timewalk
1 vamp tutor
1 d consult
1 balance
1 zombfest
side
4 hideseek
4 leyline
3 heretic
2 slaughter pact (mvp vs magmoon)
2 gaddock teeg

it was a crazy metagame where I faced fish variants in all 4 rounds of the swiss, forced to win out at 3-1. then beat doomsday in top4 and split w another fish deck in finals. knowing the metagame ahead of time, I certainly would have cut duress, but the deck performed extremely well. the squee draw/block engine is excellent. having Multiple bazaars online is thrilling.

[DoubleDrain]

congratz on the split!

[Polynomial P]

Vroman, your latest list is very good. The addition of squee to the deck is surprisingly good and the ability to control the graveyards, through Grunt and Grim lavamancer, really puts the hurt on any deck with tarmogoyf. I think that this decklist is superior to your previous lists because it contains more powerful engines and it may be better than dawn of the dead because it has fewer dead draws.

[Tiny Tim]

Very nice list! There were a few things that I found odd/was wondering about:

1. No D tutor?
2. How often were you able to cast Recall/Walk?
3. I was expecting more LFTL, any reason there aren't 2-3?
4. What were your results with the singleton Zombie Infestation?
5. Did you need the Maze at all? With 4 each of StP, Thoughtseize and 3 Lavamancers, it seems like overkill.

Anyway, congratulations on the split! Also congratulations on making a deck where MoxD belongs and Lotus does not 

Thanks,
Kevin

[vroman]

1. I dont like dtutor bc if I go for anything except bazaar, its unlikely Id be able to tutor and play the card in the same turn. v-tutor allows end step tutoring which is much better, and d-consult is 1mana into hand. however, since I tutor for bazaar more than anything else, dtutor is probly worth it.

2. its never really been an issue. the odds of having blue power and neither blue mana nor bazaar nor zombfest nor any tutor are pretty low. remember every card has lots of potential uses as just generic 2/3s cycle or 1/2 zombie, etc.

3. 1ofs are fine. I draw so many cards w this deck, you see about 40 cards per game. this is especially relevent for loam which recurs. between tutors and huge bazaaring, theres high chance of seeing any card I want.

4. see above. these two cards are especially good together, so it might be worth increasing 1 or more for synergy

5. maze is great. uncounterable, turns off single monster attacks and stops the bleeding vs swarms. between 2xriftportal and urborg, usually taps for mana too.

[vroman]

my latest list which Id looked forward to playing at Dupage this past weekend, but was thwarted by weather.

4 city brass
3 mishra factory
2 undiscovered paradise
2 riftportal
1 urbog tomb yawgs
1 badland
1 stripmine
7 mox
4 bazaar
1 maze ith
4 Dconf
4 plowshare
4 squee
4 thoughtseize
2 duress
3 jotun
3 lavaman
2 zomb infestation
1 crop
1 loam
1 recall
1 walk
1 vamp
1 consultation
1 balance
1 ray revelation
1 ancient grudge
side
4 hide/seek
2 heretic
3 slaughter pact
3 extirpate
2 mindcensor
1 maze ith

first the manabase
-I cut black lotus. this card is very good at casting turn 1 dconf, protected by duress. but really it doesnt do anything else at all at any other time. the instances of highly explosives hands are too rare to justify the dead draw every other situation. and really, black lotus is a dead draw after turn 1 in this deck, and is frequently dead turn 1 also, unless I have lots of black cards in hand.
-undiscovered paradise is perfect here. the deck does not need to build up mana sources, and actually really enjoys having extraneous cards in hand for bazaar/zombfest. an ideal board is now 1 permanent source (ideally a mox to get things going turn 1) + paradise + bazaar. also w urborg or riftportal it can tap for GWB wo bouncing. its phenomenal as a second mana source, but weak as a primary mana, so Im only running two.
-minus 1 factory + 1 badland. Ive found myself pitching factories to bazaar too often in pursuit of colored mana. also, I like having stable red source for lavamen. brass=pain, paradise bounces. generally ruby is the mox least likely to get cycled in matchups where lavaman is relevent, even if I havnt yet seen one. having a no-drawback redmana source reduces the pressure to hold on to ruby.
-breaking news from bizaro world: "Mox diamond is the best mana source in this deck."
my frequent playtest opponent jacob riehm has learned to FoW turn 1 diamond. if I resolve diamond I can automaticaly cycle every other rainbow land and mox I draw w impunity.

in the maindeck:
I tried d-tutor. sylvan scrying would be just as good. the only thing ever worth getting is bazaar. if I have to tap out to cast d-tutor, then pass the turn before casting my non-land target, I might as well have cast imperial seal for 1 less. speaking of which, imperial seal might be worth testing. in the mean time I replaced this w ray of revelation to randomly nerf fastbond brokeness, but mainly to counteract the savage new tech of maindeck threads of disloyalty. I decided hide/seek was not worth it main, bc 1of answers are harder to search for, so being able to play them off bazaar/dredge makes them more reliable in their 1 slot. also Seek is pretty weak main.
-in keeping w the above, I added ancient grudge as the 61st card, to assist vs stax/plat-control/drednaut/random-pithing-needle matchups. Im fine w this (running 61 cards)
-I cut duress#7 for zombfest#2. 6 is plenty amount of critical mass for discard effects. you want just exactly enough to reliably cast either Dconf or duress turn 1. on the other side of the decision, the zombfest effect is awesome here, esp when bazaars get needled or wasted. the deck is designed to get a core little board going, and then cycle 3/4s of your draws. having something else to do w chaff, in the absence of bazaar, is a great back up engine, even if you dont really need a zombie every turn. speaking of chaff...
-immortal little Squee is a shoo-in for Blocker of the Year. another reason to hold on to mox ruby.

sideboard:
-slaughter pact is another great sleeper card from future sight. most useful aplication = Killing Magus of the Moon! also kills dreadnauts and juggernauts and tarmo-nauts! not even fair.
-I brought back mindcensor over gaddock teeg. I see these two cards as virtually interchangable. they perform the same role in slightly diffrent matchups. however, the addition of paradise probably lends more cred to gaddock, w improved ability to generate multiple colors, while having fewer on board mana on avg. mindcensor vs gaddock is basicaly metagame call of flash vs ichorid respectively.
-I cut leyline for extirpate. basicaly bc I didnt want to have to devote 4 slots to yard hate. extirpate is a card Im still on the fence about. either its hard to use bc its highly skill testing, or its hard to use bc its just bad. either way, its aplications are narrower than what one would theoreticaly ascribe to it. this requires LOTS of testing before I would confidently know for sure which matchups to bring it in against, in the non-obvious cases.

I feel the above changes are significant enough to call this Baghdad Bob v3.0. 1.0 being the original lava-owls list, and 2.0 being the merge w Dawn of the Dead.