[Article] SS Goyf - an Updated Version of The Sullivan Solution by Tony Lyskawa

[Zherbus]

Link Here.

(Sullivan Solution) did have trouble with fish, UW fish especially. Jotun grunt and friends eventually drove the deck off the scene. Here we are a year and a half later and suddenly the deck is viable again? What got printed in a year and a half that makes this deck stronger?

[Phele]

Thanks for the nice article and congratulations on your last top8. A couple of questions:

- Why Cutpurse? It seems that is quite uneffective and performes more than underwhelming in the actual meta: With all these creatures out there, it very often is nothing but an overcosted Grizzly Bear. It seems so, that you side him out in almost every matchup you listed. I might add any form of Aggro and Oath as well, where he is the candidate to go as well.

- What are the strengths compared to builds like TK Deez Noughts. This follows my first question. Wouldn't Trinket Mage be offering much more possibilities?

- What about the aggro matchup in general. I know, that Goof improved that matchup a lot compared to old Sullivan Sollution builds. But is it enough, that you dont have to count Goblings or RG Beats at all. Seems like the decks will still give you a hard time, even with Goof. Your sideboard just has Smothers for that decks. Is that enough?

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Maybe taking a page out of the Legacy decks might be helpful,they have a bit more of a range of creatures in their "threshold" type decks.Iinstead of playing a Grizzly Bear, since the odds of him connecting are lower than ever. You can go balls to the wall with something like Tombstalker even. Or maindeck Trygon Predator could be solid as well since it can be a powerful play that can rack in the advantage.

[Ulthrion]

As a beginning vintage player, I was a bit confused by the original SS decklist. Maybe it would be a good idea to add a reference to an article that explains the deck in full, or to a forum threat that discusses the deck. It seems to me like a random pile of metagame choices with 4 stifle (I am assuming that storm combo was everywhere then, as I don't see much else to stifle except fetches) and very little to stifle yourself. Also, I don't see the reasoning for running odd 1-offs as shadow of doubt and hymn to tourach. It's probably because I am rather new to the vintage scene that I don't really know this deck and the choices made in it, but it would have been convenient to see a link with more information somewhere in the article.

That said, I was wondering some things:

Why 4 Stifle? The deck doesn't seem all that fast, and apart from storm combo, it generally buys you time stifling bazaars and oaths (and the occasional fetch, but that rapidly loses impact after turn 1). Is the time it gets you enough to ride a goyf/confidant to victory?

Why full jewelry? Is this simply a matter of being able to play dark confidant turn 1 and/or cutpurse turn 2, or is there more reasoning? Even more so, how important is the lotus petal? It seems like this isn't really the deck to capitalize on the small burst of mana it generates. Or is this too a matter of reliably playing dark confidant/cutpurse in the first two turns?

I hope these questions aren't too stupid, as I don't know this deck at all.

[tomjoad]

Why 4 Stifle? The deck doesn't seem all that fast, and apart from storm combo, it generally buys you time stifling bazaars and oaths (and the occasional fetch, but that rapidly loses impact after turn 1). Is the time it gets you enough to ride a goyf/confidant to victory?

I think you may be underestimating what a beating Stifle on a fetch can be. Due to all the cantrips in decks like GaT and Super Long, keeping a 1 land hand is not only fairly common, but usually fairly safe. Players assume that they'll be able to Brainstorm/Ponder and they'll get the lands they need before too long. If you can effectively Stone Rain them on turn 1, that can be game. To maximize the chances of holding Stifle when they break that first fetch, you need to play four of them. As you noted, Stifle also has some pretty good other uses, so it's place in the deck seems deserved to me.

[Ulthrion]

I think you may be underestimating what a beating Stifle on a fetch can be. Due to all the cantrips in decks like GaT and Super Long, keeping a 1 land hand is not only fairly common, but usually fairly safe. Players assume that they'll be able to Brainstorm/Ponder and they'll get the lands they need before too long. If you can effectively Stone Rain them on turn 1, that can be game. To maximize the chances of holding Stifle when they break that first fetch, you need to play four of them. As you noted, Stifle also has some pretty good other uses, so it's place in the deck seems deserved to me.

I see the virtues of a first turn stifle on a fetch, but is it powerful enough to warrant the situation in which it doesn't matter anymore? If you go second, or your opponent has a second mana source, or starts off with a sapphire/brainstorm or jet/duress the power of stifle can be greatly compromised. In addition, with Tarmogoyf as the only really fast clock, is stifling a first turn fetch really that often game over? You at least allow your opponent a couple of turns to naturally draw out of the situation because you probably haven't played a threat 1st turn (unless you have Lotus), so you can start attacking on turn 3 fastest. Like you said, I'm probably underestimating the power of a first turn stifle, and it's probably never truely a dead card, but it just seems so (too?) situational to me.

As a related question, if you do get to stifle a first turn fetch, what do you do with the momentum gained? Do you go for waste/loam recursion to keep him down or do you set up the quickest beating you can get with goyfs? How would the removed Erayo be in this case?

[Phele]

It is true that Stifle is a pretty situational card - even though I wouldn't underestimate the value of stifling stuff like Smokestack, Explosives, Oath whatever. But it serves its role best when paired with other land destruction or mana denial elements. Together with Wasteland – like in that build – stifling a fetchland can be huge and you can punish decks horribly which don't run enought or none Basic Lands. But let me say – without pushing this thread too much in another direction – that Stifle hast it's best place in UB Mask ("Dark Illusions") builds. In that decks it not only serves the same role as the just described one. It also helps to tinker out 12/12s with a minimum of mana investment. And functioning as a mini time walk when you stilfe Oath or Tangle Wire or Welder is even more powerful when you have such a big beast on the table, as then it's is usually all about getting two attack phases.

[someone_unimportan]

I'm pretty sure the purpose of Stifle wasn't 100% to manascrew your opponent. The card was used as a tempo enabler to get your Confidants and Cutpurses online before the opponent could get enough mana. SS was first developed in the Gifts/CS/Long meta (if I remember correctly), and Gifts and CS are extremely manahungry decks. While it's true Goyf cannot capitalize very well on stifling a fetch, your "Virtual Clock" of card advantage through Confidant and Cutpurse profited much over your Stifling a fetchland. It was essentially Time Walk #2-5.

[TimDeluxeIt]

Stifle can also save you from your Bobs in a pinch, I know everyone has used them like this one time or another.

[Nantuko]

Hi,
Nobody thinks that Phyrexian Dreadnought can be a good inclusion in this deck?
What do you think about that list:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Dimir Cutpurse
4 Dark Confidant

4 Duress
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Threads of disloyalty
1 Mystical T.
1 Vampiric T.
1 Demonic T.
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

[Tabasco]

Hi, Thank you all for your input.  I didn't realize how much discussion the article would bring about. For Adrian Sullivan's Article on SS (the deck he created) you can go here

First off Stifle does many things for the deck.  As many of you listed, great candidates for Stifle are Engineered Explosives, Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Goblin Welder, Duplicants Imprint ability, Fetchlands, Opposing Wastelands/Strip Mine, Save you from Bobs, Oath trigger, etc. the list goes on...  Stifle is a great tempo tool and it helps in the combo match-ups.  Ponder Long/Super Long have brought combo back to the main scene with finishes at SCG: Chicago and Mystic Gaming day 2 event.  Stifle also plays into the deck mana-denial strategy. When combined with Wastes and Strip Mine and the recursion power of Life from the Loam, Stifle does more than you think.

Believe it or not I am able to punch cutpurse through at least half of the time, and when it works it creates quite an advantage. It may not be the most optimal choice right now but some match-ups cutpurse still shines.  Against any combo deck cutpurse is a major threat, it can be really great against GAT as well, or even ICBM Gush Tinker. 

Im my meta right now, the decks that are prevelant are: PlatzPact, Deez Noughts (sans Green), Dawn of the Dead, Workshop aggro, GAT, and some storm combo.  Not many people play R/G Beats or Goblins right now.

My list is about 7-8 cards different from the TK Deez Noughts deck.  I played it day 1 of SCG: Chicago and decided I wanted to go back to playing a more traditional SS deck.

Full Jewlery is to help get Dark Confidant/Cutpurse online turn one, If out early they help give the deck tremendous card advantage.