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Author Topic: U/W/B Meta Deck (based on deck by Ryan at Cary Cup 1)  (Read 4729 times)
bronxie
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« on: January 27, 2008, 05:25:38 pm »

Well, i liked the idea for the deck that Matt played, so i decided to forgoe my plans to build Oath and try not netdecking for a change.  Matt beat me playing a terrible Naut-GAT hybrid with an infinite life combo thrown in.

Anyway
The deck focuses around getting out an early Hoofprints of the Stag and then drawing lots of cards.  It also runs tinker / colossus for another winning route.  Anyway, heres my list:



Win Conditions
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Platinum Angel

Counters
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Stuff
4 Duress
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Time Walk (should be something better for this deck, just dont know what)

Tutors
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Ponder

Mana Sources
1 Black Lotus
3 Moxen (U/W/B)
1 Mana Crypt or Vault
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory


Sideboard
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Echoing Truth
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Moat
3 Ray of Revelation / Seal of Cleansing
1 _________

I have not tested much, but i know it beats Naut-GAT.  Any ideas?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 06:51:15 pm by bronxie » Logged
hauntedechos
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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2008, 11:24:33 am »

At first glance, I think you want at least 3 hoofprints and the 4 AK's should be Dark Confidants for the draw acceleration for your Hoofprints.  I'm guessing that the drain mana is sunk into the factories, but is there anything else that you could find a use for the drain mana?  If you fear the pain of Confidant flips (the deck runs a pretty low mana curve) perhalps Gush are an option here, it's free and draws 2 NOW, so a play like  drawphase (1)tap for brainstorm(4), Gush(6) would be a quick way to get moving along.  Assuming you only have 2 lands out, next 2 turns you drop your lands back and in the mean time have elementals already going.

Ponders are great for drawing and adding shuffle effects, but this deck seems to need to see the word "draw" in it.  Perhalps the Ponders should be the AK's or Dark Confidants?

All in all keep up the good work and keep plugging away at it man.
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2008, 01:01:27 pm »

Dark Confidants will not increase the draw acceleration for the Stags, it will slow it. Dark Confidant does not draw you cards but it reveals a card and is placed in your hand.

For Mana Drain, I think it used to power up the cost of putting the 4/4 elemental in play as Stag's ability can only be used on the main phase.

The list looks solid though but I was wondering... no basic land? Is that not needed anymore?
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2008, 01:34:11 pm »

@dawgie:  thats right about confidant, my bad.
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bronxie
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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2008, 01:39:40 pm »

yeah.  im thinkin bout replacin the mishras cause they dont seem all that usefull in the testing i have done.  also, platinum angel and mana vault seem not so amazing in the deck, so that leaves 5 mana source spots and 1 more available.  i agree that mana drain might not be perfect in this deck, but i think that if i up my hoofprints count by 1, could it work?
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meadbert
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« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2008, 04:30:19 pm »

I thought Ryan Quick played this at Cary Cup 1?  Were both Ryan and Matt playing a similar deck?
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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2008, 04:51:07 pm »

I think he means Ryan because I have no record of a Matt registering...
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« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2008, 06:05:04 pm »

Here's my report from my team's website.  Just for clarification the ability only dictates that you play it during your turn and not that it be played as a sorcery.  This is a big difference.  I'll let everyone read the report and then take any questions/suggestions that the world has to offer.



The unrestriction of Gush actually slowed the format down immensely, since now GAT could pack Duress and pitch counters making storm combo essentially unplayable. Based on this slow-down Keeper style decks could now be dusted off, but that revives the question that has been raised since the beginning of this deck…How do I kill people? In the beginning, Serra Angel ruled the roost as the best offensive/defensive creature in print. Mirror Universe, Morphling, Decree of Justice, Exalted Angel, and Goblin Trenches have all had their day as finisher of choice, but all have positives and negatives. With the release of Lorwyn I think another contender has entered the arena….

Hoofprints of the Stag.

Card type: Tribal Enchantment

Casting cost: 1 {W}

Card text: Whenever you draw a card, you may put a hoofprint counter on Hoofprints of the Stag.

2W, Remove four hoofprint counters from Hoofprints of the Stag: Put a 4/4 white Elemental creature token with flying into play. Play this ability only during your turn.

Seems like a crappy rare, but upon further inspection the card does everything that a great control finisher would do. Low mana cost, check. Low investment of resources, check. Inevitable, check.

You draw cards to find answers and this card wins the game. Not to mention that it is an enchantment and hate for enchantments is really low unless you are named Leyline of the Void.

When this resolves it makes Brainstorm say this….

Card type: Instant

Casting cost: 2 {W} {U}

Card text: Draw three cards. Then, put any two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order. Then, during your next turn put a 4/4 white Elemental creature token with flying into play.

I would probably play that card. So I did. Here’s my list.


Keeper ‘08

Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra

Creatures
1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Colossus

Enchantments
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Moat

Spells
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
3 Duress
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
2 Skeletal Scrying
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Ponder
1 Echoing Truth

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild

The main deck is fairly solid, with very few if any auto losses, Ichorid will probably be one but such is life. The suite of countermagic is adequate although some of it comes out in most matchups. Tinker --> Darksteel is a quick and dirty path to victory, while Platz is there for decks that cannot remove it. Overall I am pleased with the main, since this is the first try at this deck. The sideboard I cannot speak for. It was patchy at best since I expected more people to play shop aggro since it is good. They didn’t and I had a lot of dead cards for the day.

Here is a quick report of the tournament on Saturday.

Rd. 1 Ben w/ Flash

Game 1 was a simple victory when I have Force/MisD with double blue card. Ben opens slowly and then goes for Summoner’s Pact. I let it resolve and double counter the Flash. Later he reveals that he had Pact of Negation as his lone card left but felt like I had a third counter that did not exist.

Out: - 2 Drain -1 Hoofprints -1 Darksteel Colossus –1 Yawgwill -1 Skeletal Scrying -1 Ponder
In: + 4 Leyline, +1 Swords, +2 Chain of Vapor

Game 2 I punt to Ben. Plain and simple. I lost my damn mind and helped him win the game. I don’t like to play like a dick and Ben makes a total noob mistake. I open with Leyline and a hand of complete juicyness. I slow play the Tinker thinking that he will eventually go for it and I will kill/bounce his Heart Sliver and win. First he plays Flash into Leyline. I let it resolve but then he says wait no I’ll Chain of Vapor the Leyline. For some reason I let this happen and he proceeds to have triple counter (!) backup. I lose.

Don’t know why I did that, but I did. It’s probably because I’m never up this early on Saturday unless college football is involved….

Out: -1 Echoing Truth
In: +1 Darksteel Colossus

Game 3 I get a great deal of hate, with Swords and Chain but few mana sources. This game takes off slowly, with me fixing my hand and him playing draw go. I find Tinker and go for the big guy, who unceremoniously gets bounced. The final turn comes with me having a hand of Ancestral, Force, MisD, Ponder, Swords, Chain, Brainstorm but only one Tundra untapped. He goes for Flash and has the three counters he needs to finish the game.

Games 1-2
Matches 0-1

Rd 2 Geoff w/ SS I think (including Crucible/Fastbond/Zuran Orb)

Game 1 We get off to a slow start with him trying to make Confidants and me sending them out to farm. He plays a Zuran Orb, which I think is strange, but I resolve Hoofprints draw some cards and fly over for the win.


Out: -1 Drain, -1 Duress
In: +1 Swords, +1 Chain

Game 2 was simple I get an aggressive Tinker hand so I do that. Tinker resolves and Darksteel joins the party. Two swings later were off to RD 3.

Games 3-2
Matches 1-1

Rd 3 Kevin w/Storm combo

Game 1 was really strange. I had heard him talking about how he was combo so I was prepared for dark rituals and things. My opening seven is comboriffic including Duress and Force. I open with Duress and see the following:

Fetch, Fetch, Mox, Brainstorm, Psychatog, Land, Land……uh what.

So I take Brainstorm and pass. He makes two mana and we proceed to play this long (~30 minute) game. Eventually I go for Tinker and it resolves. He then plays the freshly drawn bounce to send the big guy back to my hand. Colossus is 2/5 so far today. We go back and forth with him attacking for 1 and me doing nothing. He then figures out that his Tog is lethal if he can Hurkyl’s himself with 1 card in hand. He goes for hurkyl’s I do some quick math and hardcast Misdirection to me preventing Tog from killing me. I draw Lotus and hardcast the Platz in my hand. Soon Hoofprints came to help me finish him off from there. At one point at the end he had a lethal Tog and a Chain of vapor but I had Force of Will so it didn’t matter.

Out: -1 Ponder, -1 Moat, -1 Skeletal Scrying, -1 Hoofprints
In: +4 Leyline of the Void

Game 2 was more shenanigans as he goes first, but has no real business. I open with Leyline and I play Tinker on turn 1 and get DC. He sticks and this one is a walk over. Afterwards he tells me that he sided into Platinum control, but I only saw one angel….whatever you say.

Games 5-2
Matches 2-1

If I win the next match I’m in the T8…how exciting.

RD 4 Eddie w/ DeezNaughts

Game 1 is essentially the kind of game I want. He plays small dudes and I enrich my farming workforce. He killed every land that I put into play for 3 or 4 turns while he has no colored mana sources. I eventually get some land to stick and Duress him into topdeck mode. I resolve a Hoofprints and then resolve Will. He scoops when I resolve Moat out of the yard, since he has no outs.

Out: -1 Echoing Truth, -1 Mana Drain, -1 Duress, -1 Ponder, -1 Skeletal Scrying
In: 2 Pithing Needle, +1 Swords, +2 Chain of Vapor

Game 2 was silly. He opens with Lotus, Mox, Land, Time Walk, Dreadnought, Stifle. He swings for 12. I play land go. I bounce the Nought during Combat. So he replays it with a fresh Stifle…off the top.


Game 3 I play a fetch and pass the turn. He plays Mox, Land, Dreadnought, Stifle. Wow again. I had MisD in my hand and it occurred to me that I could have cracked my fetch and Misdirected the Stifle to my fetchland activation. The fetch would’ve resolved and then his dude sacrificed, but we are all All-Stars after the fact. Anyway I let the robot resolve and bounce it during combat. This time the plays Illusionary Mask (!) and puts something (???) in play face down. I find a quick Tinker for DC and he is sent back to my hand and I go down to horrible Dreadnought beatz.

Games 6-4
Matches 2-2

RD 5 David Earley w/ GAT

Well finally one of the matches that I had prepared for. This will be an interesting battle since David is a good player.

Game 1 started with me quipping that he should mull to 1 so we could go to game 2. He mulled to 5 and reluctantly kept. My turn one Duress takes Brainstorm, leaving him with only Vampiric tutor. I scroll for Ancestral and play it during his upkeep. He draws the card that he had vamped up and passes. He draws a land, plays Ancestral and I misdirect it. DC finished up and we move on to game 2.

Out: -1 Duress, -1 Scrying, -1 Ponder
In: +1 Swords, +2 Chain of Vapor

Game 2 he gets a much better start but we are starting to run low on time. This game is long and drawn out and comes down to him having a Tog and a +6 Dryad with me at 8 life. He has 2 cards one of which is Berserk and I find DT. I can’t DT for Tinker because I removed it to resolve an Ancestral that netted me 3 lands. If I have Balance here I probably win….But I don’t so I lose. I chose to get Chain here but if played properly by him, that doesn’t even give me an out.

We start Game 3 with very little time on the clock. About 8 minutes I think. A draw does neither of us any good, so we go into hurry up mode. My opening 7 give me an aggro start if I can find a third land in the top 5 cards…..

I play Hoofprints with double brainstorm in hand. I can make 4/4s faster than he can make and grow a Dryad at this point. So I begin to draw cards….and more cards…and more cards…after 4 turns 3 brainstorms and 4 draws…no land. Crap. Meanwhile, he is over there making a decent sized Dryad. On turn 3 of turns he has swung me down to 7 but has no hand. So I Brainstorm up the Swords I had put back on top and send the larger than normal dryad down to the end of the field where the strong monsters work…..and then I concede to him on turn 5 since his tiebreakers are better than mine. I ended the game with Hoofprints in play, with 15 counters on it, 1 Mox, and 1 land. Never found the third mana source.

I didn’t think I was going to make it so I just let him try. He finished 10th.
Final Stats
Games 7-5-1
Matches 2-2-1 (officially 2-3)

Overall I was very pleased with the way that the deck performed. It was really solid, although I did lose 2 games in part to mana screw. Mainly this deck is about decisions and for the most part I played well and won. Mistakes were definitely made mainly Game 2 of round 1.

Hoofprints performed well in limited action. I only needed it in a couple games since I played against combo decks most of the day, but when it was in play it caused problems. Brainstorm was Duressed/Thoughseized away twice as opposed to other business..good stuff.

Moat is terrible beats right now. Most decks have few answers to it.

Darksteel colossus was probably the least successful that he will ever be since he stayed on the board and attacked 4/8 times today. If that is upped to 75% then I probably make T8. Either way I was happy with this last second addition over the 4th Duress (I’ll get to this later). But…

The deck needs more Duress effects. I think that adding 2 Thoughtseize in the Ponder slots may be correct. The deck runs plenty of land sources so Ponder isn’t as important as in Gro. The play of fetch Island --> Ponder on turn 1 is very good against Shop aggro/Stax, but this matchup is already bad in game 1 and may get further sacrificed to help out other matchups.

Balance should at least be in the Sideboard. I still don’t think that it merits a maindeck slot, but it should definitely be in the side. In matchups where it’s needed it will be a bomb and something that will need to be played around. This omission was a mistake on my part.

The sideboard was really a mess overall. The Chain of Vapors were marginal all day, and maybe there is something better that can be a catch all for different situations. Any ideas about the board…let me know, I need the help.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 06:09:32 pm by RJ » Logged
bronxie
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« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2008, 06:50:51 pm »

im sorry, you are right.  it was Ryan.  Im sorry i get my peoples confused but... anyway

thanks for Ryan's report.  its good.  How should the sideboard be structured?
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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2008, 09:03:53 pm »

How should the sideboard be structured?

That's the million dollar question.  The answer will not be concrete here.  Since this is a metagame deck, then the sideboard will completely depend on the decks you expect to face.  I knew there would be Ichorid so I devoted a good deal of hate there.  Shop aggro is a pain so I had the extra chains, mass bounce, and seals. 

I considered Meddling Mages...and this my be a viable option especially if combo becomes more prevalent.  If you are sure that blue based decks will be everywhere then you may consider adding a volcanic to the main and having access to REB.  Sometimes adding a Tropical or 2 to the main and running an oath transform post board. 

There are tons of options, I'll list a few that I kicked around.  Maybe we could come up with some solid spots and then some metagame slots that will change from event to event.

For sure Balance will be card #1.  Pithing Needle will be cards 2-4.  After that there are many choices:

Swords 4
Bounce (Chain, Rebuild, Hurkyl's)
Serenity
Eng. Plague
Energy Flux
Meddling Mage
Yxlid Jailer
Thoughseize
Threads
Sower of Temptation
Maze of Ith
Leyline of the Void
Null Rod
et al....

Llike I said in the report, I need some help with this one.
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2008, 09:25:31 pm »

Congrats Ryan, the deck looks very good.
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bronxie
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2008, 09:17:59 am »

Why is chain so much better than echoing truth?
I like engineered plague, but i dont think that more discard has a place in the sideboard.  Id like to devote 6 slots to dredge.  Siding in serentiy would damage your win cons too much, so i dont think that works.  I like the 4th swords to plowshares on the board, and i think we have enough mana to make energy flux a viable choice as well.  I think you are right about REB and splashing red.  Playing a couple mox monkeys sideboard against combo or maybe throwin in stifle sideboard is a good choice?
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bronxie
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2008, 09:21:28 am »

i like sower of temptation quite well.  what about Shadow of Doubt against everything? it fits the theme of the deck with a draw, and it wrecks several decks too.
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A strong play.

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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2008, 12:40:33 pm »

You should cut DSC for Titan.

Titan >>>> DSC vs. decks with bounce
Platinum >>>>> DSC vs. decks without bounce
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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2008, 04:36:53 pm »

Thirst for Knowledge super powers out that Stag thingy.  Just putting my 2cts in here.  With mana drains you can support it quite easily and become less relient on graveyard via scrying and aks.
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bronxie
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« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2008, 05:49:10 pm »

kobefan -- i get why titan is better vs bounce decks but why against decks without bounce?

I agree with you outlaw.  do you guys think three stag is good or leave it at 2?
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A strong play.

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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2008, 06:10:49 pm »

kobefan -- i get why titan is better vs bounce decks but why against decks without bounce?

Decks with bounce have trouble locating it if titan hits the board. For example, GAT's out to DSC is Scroll->Echoing Truth or to combo out over it. If you Titan away 1-3 land, they basically can't do either of those. If they happen to find the bounce they get punished again when titan leaves play. And yes, I know they can Gush in response to Titan's trigger, it's still devastating.
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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2008, 06:23:28 pm »

yeah i got that.  why is it better against decks that do not run bounce?
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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2008, 06:58:15 pm »

Why is chain so much better than echoing truth?
I like engineered plague, but i dont think that more discard has a place in the sideboard.  Id like to devote 6 slots to dredge.  Siding in serentiy would damage your win cons too much, so i dont think that works.  I like the 4th swords to plowshares on the board, and i think we have enough mana to make energy flux a viable choice as well.  I think you are right about REB and splashing red.  Playing a couple mox monkeys sideboard against combo or maybe throwin in stifle sideboard is a good choice?
The chain vs. echoing truth was settled by cost.  Chain costs 1 which means against shop aggro it costs 2, which can be easily cast in the first 2 turns.  Getting to 3 before they do something obscene is difficult sometimes unless you draw a ton of moxen or lotus.

Most of the time when Serenity goes off against shops you win since you can just draw more cards. 

Siding in more duress/thoughseize is roughly equivalent to siding in REB it just keeps you out of 4 colors.  When you go to 4 colors you have weird decisions about which lands to get sometimes and if you can prevent this opportunity to make a mistake you probably should. 


You should cut DSC for Titan.

Titan >>>> DSC vs. decks with bounce
Platinum >>>>> DSC vs. decks without bounce

I actually said this out loud during one of my games.  Initially I was afraid of killing too many of my own lands when he comes into play, but after playing the deck this is correct.  I will be making this change and doing some testing.

Thirst for Knowledge super powers out that Stag thingy.  Just putting my 2cts in here.  With mana drains you can support it quite easily and become less relient on graveyard via scrying and aks.

Thirst definitely does make a lot of counters, but I think the commodity with this deck is life and not the graveyard.  If I were utilizing the graveyard more, say with AK's then thirst would be fine.  But in this type of deck, I would rather have the cards in hand and just dump the life points.  Besides in most games if you have sufficient control 1 or 2 4/4's will probably be plenty.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 07:10:28 pm by RJ » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2008, 08:07:59 pm »

So do you think the basic Counterspell could be played over mana drain to avoid lifeloss?
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« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2008, 08:27:45 pm »

So do you think the basic Counterspell could be played over mana drain to avoid lifeloss?

No.   
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« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2008, 08:55:32 pm »

awesome. so wait, you said tfk is better than AK?  and are we both gonna be playin this at the next vintage tourney?
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« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2008, 09:10:37 pm »

awesome. so wait, you said tfk is better than AK?  and are we both gonna be playin this at the next vintage tourney?

I said that playing Thirst is better if you have cards that you can pitch without drawback.  This deck does not have that many of them since it does not aim to abuse the graveyard.  There are only 7 artifacts to pitch which is bad.  It does make counters, but that's not the real point since you don't need an endless stream of tokens just enough (1 or 2) to win.
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« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2008, 09:23:26 pm »

agreed.  ak or somethin else? did your maindeck work well for you at the tourney last weekend?
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« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2008, 09:44:21 am »

This deck looks very nice. My only problem is the 2 Hoofprints.
It really looks like you have to tutor around for getting the Hoofprints BEFORE you play the huge draw spells. This is quite difficult against top decks.
Cool idea imo but it seems that you can't play the Hoofprints fast enough to be effective. I think relying on something like Gifts-Rebuild-ETW will let you win more games.

The problem: Playing 4 Hoofprints takes lots of space. Well, you have to try. But IF you play Hoofprints I suggest 4.
I didn't mention problems like Echoing Truth.
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bronxie
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« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2008, 06:41:21 pm »

echoing truth seems better vs gat to me.  if they have 2 dryad it bounces both right?
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« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2008, 06:59:20 pm »

This deck looks very nice. My only problem is the 2 Hoofprints.
It really looks like you have to tutor around for getting the Hoofprints BEFORE you play the huge draw spells. This is quite difficult against top decks.
Cool idea imo but it seems that you can't play the Hoofprints fast enough to be effective. I think relying on something like Gifts-Rebuild-ETW will let you win more games.

The problem: Playing 4 Hoofprints takes lots of space. Well, you have to try. But IF you play Hoofprints I suggest 4.
I didn't mention problems like Echoing Truth.

If this deck were combo/control I would agree and play those other decks.  However, it is more of a pure control deck and as such if your plan is executed you can really just win at your leisure.  If not, go get tinker; that should provide enough of those quick aggressive type wins.  This is why you don't need Hoofprints on turn 2 just like old style 4cc decks didn't need Goblin Trenches early. 

echoing truth seems better vs gat to me.  if they have 2 dryad it bounces both right?

This is true, which is why there is an echoing truth in the main. 
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