ICBM Open #3 Results--TO Report aka Flash is clearly not a contender

[Tha Gunslinga]

Notice how Jamison isn't running AETHER VIAL!  Because Flash speeds the format up so much that Goblins can not run the absolute best card Goblins can ever hope to play.  And Leyline is suboptimal vs anything but Ichorid and Flash.

Leyline is fine vs GAT and Empty Gifts, and any other deck that employs Yawgmoth's Will.  Why don't you ask Jamison why he cut Aether Vial, which is probably not as good as Lackey and is certainly not the "absolute best card" or he wouldn't have cut it.  I'm sure he has a perfectly valid reason.

[Pitlord]

I feel like I should chip into the flash discussion from the perspective DeMars has been bringing up lately. Anyone form the area who knows me knows I will almost always play some sort of shop deck at any given event, for a variety of reasons. It's my pet deck. It also happens to have awful match-ups against oath and flash.

I went 5-3 in games against flash at the event, with a deck that shouldn't win even half of those games. Was my maindeck warped around beating flash and oath a little? Sure was. But why wouldn't it be? I was confident in all of my other matches, so why shouldn't I try to hate out my worst matches if I have space. I went into the day 2-0, including beating flash, and my record against flash was solid all day.

I guess what that rambling was getting at is that if a pet deck can be tweaked a little with OK, although probably not optimal, meta slots and compete pretty well, why the hell is everyone complaining?

[coyoteuglly]

Flash is the most unfair, absurdly powerful, and non-interactive deck in the history of Vintage.

Pretty much sums it up in your own words Steve.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i think I was quoting someone there :p

Sorry, my fault on the misquote.

http://teamicbm.com/2007/07/26/icbm-goblines.aspx

Gob-Lines was specifically created to prey on flash, fish and GAT.  It is indeed a meta hate deck, and good at it's job as it oviously has game against the rest of the field as well.  Vial goblins is not nearly as competitive against the field as a whole because it lacks a way to stop stupid broken plays like yawg win, flash hulk, and dredge a deck.  Adding black gave it a way to compete thanks to leyline and earwig to stop stupid stuff.

The week before Elias took Goblins to Waterbury I finished second with it to I@n in a Milwaukee tournament with Goblins.  Which is how ICBM ended up with the deck.  The difference between than and now is that back than Goblins didn't have to main deck Leyline against Flash.  Just the fact that you were playing creatures was good enough to beat the Sliver kill.

http://teamicbm.com/2007/07/26/icbm-goblines.aspxThe fact that a deck that has good game against flash sides in cards anyway is in no way indicative that flash is overpowered.  It simply means that there are cards in the decks sideboard that are better for the match than certain cards in its main deck.  Again this is what a side board is for.

Looking at the way Rich Shay sides against flash with tyrant oath is a good example.  He knows that the oath plan is too slow to be truly effective so he sides in a quicker/easier storm kill and some more disruption.  Oath already has game against flash, the match is not lopsided, so why does it side in so many cards later?  Simply to strengthen the chances of winning.

If you have any game in a tourney where you main deck is perfect to beat a certain deck before and after side boarding then I say the other deck must be a total pile.

From Rich's ELD Tournament Report:

The primary objective of the sideboard is to beat Flash, which I expected in large numbers. We skimped a bit on removal for creatures and artifacts to make sufficient room.

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1  Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Spawning Pit
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1  Rebuild

I still looks like Rich has 13 cards to board in against Flash.

Leyline is fine vs GAT and Empty Gifts, and any other deck that employs Yawgmoth's Will.  Why don't you ask Jamison why he cut Aether Vial, which is probably not as good as Lackey and is certainly not the "absolute best card" or he wouldn't have cut it.  I'm sure he has a perfectly valid reason.

I am pretty sure it is the same reason I cut AEther Vials out of Goblins in preparation for this tournament.  AEther Vial is not a Goblin or a Rogue that can trigger the prowl on Earwig Squad turn two.  Which Flash and Oath decks have a glaring weakness against right now.  Which were expected to be the two most popular decks Sunday.  Against every other deck with the exception of Ichorid that showed up, AEther Vial is a superior turn 1 play.

[Tha Gunslinga]

The week before Elias took Goblins to Waterbury I finished second with it to I@n in a Milwaukee tournament with Goblins.  Which is how ICBM ended up with the deck.

You invented Goblins?  And I thought I@n had top-8ed Gencon years ago with it...

You know, Elias claims that playing GobLines at Waterbury was 100% his idea, and that I@n stole the credit from him, so clearly at least one of you is wrong.

Against every other deck with the exception of Ichorid that showed up, AEther Vial is a superior turn 1 play.

It's bad in a fast environment, which is what we have right now.  I'm pretty sure leading with Vial against Empty Gifts is bad too.

[coyoteuglly]

You invented Goblins?  And I thought I@n had top-8ed Gencon years ago with it...

You know, Elias claims that playing GobLines at Waterbury was 100% his idea, and that I@n stole the credit from him, so clearly at least one of you is wrong.[/quote]

Idk... I wasn't at Waterbury.  And to the best of my knowledge have never talked Elias. Along with having zero knowledge about any conversations that I@n and Elias have had.  As far as I can tell I was the first person to play Goblins successfully since Food Chain Goblins fell out of favor and Tendrils of Agony decks became popular.

[Moxlotus]

I guess what that rambling was getting at is that if a pet deck can be tweaked a little with OK, although probably not optimal, meta slots and compete pretty well, why the hell is everyone complaining?

The issue never has been "can Flash be beat?".  The issue has been "does Flash remove interactivity and fun from the game an unacceptable amount of the time?"

[Suicideking]

The issue never has been "can Flash be beat?".  The issue has been "does Flash remove interactivity and fun from the game an unacceptable amount of the time?"

Well, then the issue is how do you measure fun.  If I think its fun to turn 1 people with flash, then killing it would affect my enjoyment.  The only way you can justify restriction is by using evidence, and it just isnt there yet to justify killing the deck.

[Moxlotus]

The issue never has been "can Flash be beat?".  The issue has been "does Flash remove interactivity and fun from the game an unacceptable amount of the time?"

Well, then the issue is how do you measure fun.  If I think its fun to turn 1 people with flash, then killing it would affect my enjoyment.  The only way you can justify restriction is by using evidence, and it just isnt there yet to justify killing the deck.

The same way we "measured fun" with Trinisphere.

[The Demon]

The week before Elias took Goblins to Waterbury I finished second with it to I@n in a Milwaukee tournament with Goblins.  Which is how ICBM ended up with the deck.

You invented Goblins?  And I thought I@n had top-8ed Gencon years ago with it...

You know, Elias claims that playing GobLines at Waterbury was 100% his idea, and that I@n stole the credit from him, so clearly at least one of you is wrong.

Against every other deck with the exception of Ichorid that showed up, AEther Vial is a superior turn 1 play.

It's bad in a fast environment, which is what we have right now.  I'm pretty sure leading with Vial against Empty Gifts is bad too.

It is a pretty bad play against Empty Gifts.  I made that play game two against I think Dan Carp at the last SCG and it wasn't ever that big of a deal.  A lackey would have been a lot better, and by the time the vial had enough counters to drop a bigger bomb like Siege-Gang Commander and Ringleader the game was damn well over.