Single Card Discussion: Root Maze

[Nevermore]

With gush/fastbond decks showing such strong numbers and results in vintage right now, I am wondering why root maze hasnt made its way to the tier 1 decks.  For 1 mana it poses a large problem for gush decks ability to take off.  Additionally it buys many tempos versus decks that have lots of fetchlands.  Some tier 1 decks run up to 7 right now.  This card just seems very good under these circumstances.

If I were to make a root maze deck, I would think it would either be G/U or G/B.

If it was green and blue, I would want root mazes, maybe curse catcher for tempo, goyf, loam, back to basics, trygon predator etc etc. 
I believe JP Meyer once had a root maze back to basics deck that ran off survival of the fittest for its engine.

If I made a green and black deck, I would want root maze and try to sneak in chains of memph to shut down the draw engines of most decks.  Goyf and dark confidant would be necessary as well.  Im not sure this would stand a chance against deeznaughts, however root maze and CoM seem like a potential set of cards to cause lots of damage to some of the tier one decks right now.

Basically why isn't root maze seen more, and if it would see play, what kinds of decks could it be useful in?

[hauntedechos]

Couldn't one bounce Rootmaze, then go off?  If CoM was included as a Lock, couldnt one just cast a mass enchant removal spell, then go off?  After all the majority of the Gush decs are running G these days.

Haunted.

[silvernail]

Why not make it g/w enchantress with 4 root mazes and 4 sterling groves plus other enchantress stuffs ? That way they need global removal to handle it.

[JewLightning]

Root Maze is a pretty decent I think. Right now my girlfriend is playing B.G with Goyf, Bob, Root Maze Thorns of Amethyst, Duress, Wastelands. I haven't thought of Chains, but I will definitely put it in there and test it out. The problems I am having with this deck is the lack of creatures, personally I like Skyshroud Elite. I am also in the process of working Rancor into the deck because it makes Tarmogoyf trample and Bob big as well as Elite.

@ Silvenail: Because white sucks. Black is clearly better, it gives you Bob, Duress, Chains.

[Worldslayer]

Root Maze does seem really, really strong right now. With Wastes and Chalice backing it up, the mana denial aspect seems like a great hoser to GushScroll.dec. Though it requires a bit of rebalancing (City of Brass instead of Fetchlands traditionally assosciated with 2-3 color decks, etc...) it seems like a strong contender for the typical hate deck slot in the tiers.

As for lack of creatures, I think I would suggest Hidden Guerillas or Gibbons over the Elite. The usual T1 response to Root Maze, Thorn, and friends involves one or both of the following -

1) FoW / counter
2) Plowing out Moxes (in absence of chalice for 0) in an attempt to still play cards that matter while their other mana catches up.

I'd test the Gibbons first in any deck running Chalice, and Guerillas in any deck without. Granted, they're conditional threats, but their two conditions are the most met in Vintage far and away. On the off-chance they hold back playing one or both of those card types to avoid activating your cheap, efficient beaters then they're slowing down their progress and filtering due to a card that costs G - much like Root Maze.

[nineisnoone]

Basically why isn't root maze seen more, and if it would see play, what kinds of decks could it be useful in?

It basically is symmetric, and it isn't easy to break symmetry with Green.  I think Orb of Dreams in Stacks is better, because workshop is asymmetric.  Otherwise, the slow down is just even.  Against fetches it's more useful true, but then again to make this asymmetric that means you can't run fetches either.

It can get in the way of Gush, but it has to be played before Fastbond.  This means they can see it and just search or draw for bounce.

Though he's kind of expensive Cephalid Constable is an interesting choice.  Normally bouncing a land wouldn't be that big a deal, since they'll spend it in response to it being bounced if not spent, and just replay it.  But with Root Maze it'll come back tapped. 

[Wagner]

It can get in the way of Gush, but it has to be played before Fastbond.  This means they can see it and just search or draw for bounce.

Why does everyone seems to think that they just have to bounce a threath at any time? If if was so easy, why would anyone play any permanents. When running 5-6 fetches or more, it can take a few turns to Scroll for the most of the time only bounce spell in the deck and cast it. It costs ressources and slows their gameplan. And, after it is bounced, they must win now (not so easy if they have been slowed a lot) or prepare a counter to stop you from casting it again.

Here is a small example if you start with Rootmaze turn 1 against a Gush deck.

Turn 1: Tapped Mox, Tapped land
Turn 2: Tapped fetch, Scroll for Bounce
Turn 3: Ready to bounce with 0 or 1 mana backup

In the 3 first turns, they will have done nothing towards acheving their game plan and must still use a FoW to keep you from casting it again. Granted the Gush player will most likely get A Recall with the Scroll, but that means he still must spend 4 mana at some time to remove the Rootmaze.

Also, even if Fastbond is in play, Gush in now simply a draw 2 cards and lose 2 life and it's way harder to chain.


I'm not saying it's great, but it is worth trying.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

My concern with Rootmaze is that in order to get the first-turn rootmaze in effect scenario, you need to run them as a 4-of.  How do you make use of them as redundant draws - what outlet is there available to turn them into useful draws?  Pitching them to Wild Mongrel works

Dont get me wrong - I love the card and use it - I wish green had a stormbind effect.  Wait  a minute - its does, doesnt it.

[nineisnoone]

It can get in the way of Gush, but it has to be played before Fastbond.  This means they can see it and just search or draw for bounce.

Why does everyone seems to think that they just have to bounce a threath at any time?...

I'm not saying it's great, but it is worth trying.

And I'm not saying not to try it.  I'm just trying to honestly point the short comings that it needs to overcome.  Personally, I'm eager to find some way to use it.

The main problem is that it's a tempo play that doesn't really effect have a permanent effect.  This typically makes it a poor tempo play, because most of the time you want the play to create pressure or preserve pressure.  Root Maze doesn't do either.  It doesn't "pressure" the opponent, the easy response is to just wait for lands to untap. There's no pressure being applied to GushBond, because if nothing happens they just untap and move to the next turn.  Does it preserve pressure? Maybe initially, but next turn the lands untap and the pressure is gone. It just creates a gap in time when it comes to mana.  But there is always the ever prevalent Force of Will that reduces even that advantage.

It's sort of like Dark Ritual but highly conditional (i.e. first turn against fetch lands).  And Dark Ritual really isn't played outside of combo decks that abuse it or need it.

[Almighty]

It's really hard to make Root Maze good. I've played with it for a while in R/G beats, which seems like the best deck to abuse it, but it just isn't enough of a lock piece. I find that it is one of those cards that just works a lot better on paper than it does in practice. It's only great when you drop it turn one off artifact mana with a strip effect to back it up. It tends to be absolute clunk otherwise.

[Guli]

My concern with Rootmaze is that in order to get the first-turn rootmaze in effect scenario, you need to run them as a 4-of.  How do you make use of them as redundant draws - what outlet is there available to turn them into useful draws?  Pitching them to Wild Mongrel works

Dont get me wrong - I love the card and use it - I wish green had a stormbind effect.  Wait  a minute - its does, doesnt it.

That is why i combined root maze with bazaar and life from loam, you get the picture