TheManaDrain.com
December 23, 2025, 06:29:48 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Wanting to get into Vintage - Need help understanding ins and outs.  (Read 2674 times)
CHAOSBLACKDOOM
Basic User
**
Posts: 12


View Profile
« on: May 17, 2008, 01:11:50 am »

I hope this is the right place for this thread.  I've been trying to complete net decks so far, then I want to branch off into my own ideas, but I need to know why people make the changes they do.  I know it would probably be a pretty long list, but does anyone have a list of every card used in any t8 Vintage deck resently?

I have Manaless Ichorid built right now (without bazaar) and I'm working on Flash and Mono Red Workshop Aggro.  With this list, if someone could help me realize why those cards are used, and in what decks, that would be extremely helpful.  If there's a way to find this out on my own, someone tell me.

Another reason to keep this thread up is I've seen a lack of Rack and Ruin, what is the reasoning behind this?  Has destroying two artifacts become bad or is it just a workshop light meta around there?

Thank you everyone and I hope to be putting my two cents into many more threads from here on out.
Logged
Legrow
Basic User
**
Posts: 18


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2008, 04:48:27 pm »

does anyone have a list of every card used in any t8 Vintage deck resently?

Philip Stanton used to do cardwise breakdown of the Vintage metagame on a monthly basis over at SCG, but I think he has long since stopped; much of the information to compile your own list is available at Morphling.DE.

If there's a way to find this out on my own, someone tell me.

There's often primer threads in either this forum or the Open forum that explain deck choices and, sometimes, even rationales for why the deck has evolved in the direction it has.

Another reason to keep this thread up is I've seen a lack of Rack and Ruin, what is the reasoning behind this?  Has destroying two artifacts become bad or is it just a workshop light meta around there?

I can only speak for myself, but I have found that I am finding myself in one of two places:
 a) Short on mana, as Mono-R Workshop Aggro drops one of their 8 or 9 Sphere effects to lock me out of the game.
 b) Short on targets, as if the Mono-R deck has threats but no disruption, they're in a relatively poor position (as the format seems rather heavily geared towards combo at the moment) and as such, I'd rather have a threat than a reactive spell to deal with their mostly-unproblematic artifacts.

And I am also of the opinion that Rack and Ruin's heyday was during the Trinisphere Era.  When all your spells had to at least cost three, you may as well play the three-mana artifact kill spell and get the most out of it; with Trinisphere restricted, you often get essentially the same (and sometimes more) use out of an Ancient Grudge, as the artifact kill can be spread out over multiple turns, doesn't require a second artifact in order to use, and works even if you've pitched it to the bin for some reason.

Oh, and (at least in the Philadelphia meta), Stax seems to be mostly missing from the meta -- whether that's because it's inferior to other strategies, or because people locally just choose not to play it, it simply hasn't been in any position of dominance locally for a while.

Good luck!
Logged
ErkBek
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 974

A strong play.

Erk+Bek
View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2008, 05:30:35 pm »

I'd recommend you subscribe to SCG premium so you can read Steve's articles. He recently wrote: The Ultimate Vintage Primer (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15567.html), it's perfect for a new player trying to learn the format.

If you're not down with spending money to read Steve's articles you can just wait until they become free. That particular article will become free in about a 20 days I think.
Logged

Team GWS
Troy_Costisick
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1804


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2008, 10:38:19 pm »

I'd recommend you subscribe to SCG premium so you can read Steve's articles. He recently wrote: The Ultimate Vintage Primer (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15567.html), it's perfect for a new player trying to learn the format.

If you're not down with spending money to read Steve's articles you can just wait until they become free. That particular article will become free in about a 20 days I think.

I second this.  It's worth the subscription price just to read Steve's articles.  Especially the primer article Kobefan listed.  It's a super high recomend.

Peace,

-Troy
Logged

Masta
Basic User
**
Posts: 53



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2008, 01:55:58 am »

Chaos....just play man.

The best way to learn about Magic and Type1 is just to play.  After that play some more, then finish it off with some playing.  If you're netdecking some Ichorid or Flash deck, play with it enough and you'll soon learn the purpose of each card. 

Also, like the posts above me state...there are many articles and threads all over this website that discuss in length, probably in too much length sometimes, the propriety of cards in their given decks.

Take Flash for example, I'm more of a Sliver-kill kind of guy.  Why?  No fantastic reasoning.  I just like the aggro kill more, and it's a bit more difficult to hate against compared to it's brother Fanatic/Feeder build.  A lot of the stuff on here is just preference and meta-specific, so don't take the posts on here as the end all voice of reason.  Just have fun!

V/R
Masta
Logged
Shock Wave
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1436



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2008, 09:06:42 am »

Chaos....just play man.

The best way to learn about Magic and Type1 is just to play.  After that play some more, then finish it off with some playing.  If you're netdecking some Ichorid or Flash deck, play with it enough and you'll soon learn the purpose of each card.

I think is the most important advice given in this thread. Practical experience is far more important than any article you could ever read about Vintage. A combination of theory and experience will expedite the growth of your skills with the highest efficiency, however in game experience should be at a premium for you. It's fine to read about how to play and what to look for in a game, but it is another issue altogether to apply what you know. Moreover, players with a lot of in game experience don't necessarily need to know the theory of the game because they have an intimate understanding of what the right plays are because they can feel them throughout the course of a game.

When you have time, read the articles, but dig in and get your hands dirty first.
Logged

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." 
- Theodore Roosevelt
ErkBek
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 974

A strong play.

Erk+Bek
View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2008, 11:20:22 am »

When you have time, read the articles, but dig in and get your hands dirty first.

Unless you've got someone teaching you, I think you need to learn the theory as you start to play. How are you going to understand the power of Brainstorm if you're still trying to figure out how to operate your deck and know all it's synergies?

I've got some free time so I'll state some things you and others will find helpful:

Duress / Thoughtseize: These cards are extremely useful and have totally different functions in different decks. Here are it's 3 primary uses:
Clear out your opponent's disruption so you can combo - Storm combo is best know for using duress in this way. You simply duress away their Force of Will/Mana Drain/Duress so you're deck can combo as planned without your opponent stepping in to stop it. This tactic is used in Long, The Tropical Storm, Next Level Doomsday, Gush Storm variants, and can be employed by GAT or Empty Gifts (basically for resolving Fastbond or Ancestral).
Building Tempo - The strategy here is you take either the best card in the opponent's hand or a card that cause them to have poor lines of play (for example, Duressing a Mox when they have 2 Merchant Scrolls in hand and no other turn 1 plays or Brainstorm when they kept a 1 lander). GAT and Fish Variants best use this tempo strategy since their game plans are often to disrupt the opponent long enough to either get in lethal damage or buy time to disrupt other facets of the opponent's gameplan.
Playing Control - The plan here is simply to disrupt your opponent's gameplan. The information you gain from Duress is great, you can map out how your opponent will be playing the rest of the game and adjust your plans accordingly. Usually you simply take either their best card or the card that you won't be able to deal with.

Merchant Scroll - Everyone talks about Scroll's flexibility making it broken, but it simply comes down to Ancestral Recall (and Gush-bond too an extent). Scroll sucks in formats without Gush or Ancestral Recall, but since they exist scroll is great. If you're running Scrolls, a small built in toolbox provides decks flexibly that every deck can use. Echoing Truth, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Gifts Ungiven, and Brainstorm are generally the other cards you get. A latent bonus on Scroll is that it can be a shuffle effect after a Brainstorm too.

Brainstorm - It's a 4-of in just about every vintage deck for a reason. Brainstorm + Fetchland is amazing at letting you turn dead cards into action fast. Brian Demars wrote an excellent article about this a while back. (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11244.html)

GAT is good because of it's flexibility to play tempo, combo, and control depending on it's hand.
Flash is good because it eliminates interaction and wins the game for 2 mana.
Empty Gifts is good because it can play a solid control game then has an explosive combo finish.
Shops are good because Gush decks run horrendous manabases and have trouble dealing with Sphere effects.
Fish is good because it can be disruptive like shops yet run all good blue cards.

Gush-Bond is king. It draws you cards and sets up giant Yawgmoth's Wills that generate tons of mana and net you tons of cards.
Logged

Team GWS
Shock Wave
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1436



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2008, 02:21:10 pm »

Unless you've got someone teaching you, I think you need to learn the theory as you start to play. How are you going to understand the power of Brainstorm if you're still trying to figure out how to operate your deck and know all it's synergies?

Well, by playing with Brainstorm, you'll come to understand why it is important through actual gameplay. Its importance will become apparent quite quickly. You may not be able to articulate exactly why it is a crucial spell, but you'll know intuitively. Not every great magic player is an adept theorist, but these players still understand the game very well by feel. Like I said, I think it is good to have a combination of both skills, but if I were to recommend one above the other, I would definitely recommend more hands-on practice as opposed to theory.
Logged

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." 
- Theodore Roosevelt
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.042 seconds with 20 queries.