June 1st Restrictions, Best Idea Ever

[Drummer79]

At the risk of being flamed...

I completely agree with this. As a TO and a judge, there were MANY times I was on the border of having to issue a game loss for slow play on brainstorms and ponders. Honestly, with them in the format as 4 of's Round times should have been 75 minutes.

Gush, Scroll, and Flash, anyone who's intelligent should have seen this coming.
http://teamicbm.com/2008/03/19/one-thousand-dollars-says-that-flash-does-not-get-restricted-this-year.aspx

In all seriousness, this is going to do nothing but open up the format. Wizards restricts or bans cards when it's becoming necessary to play 4 of something because everyone else is.

Here are some numbers from the last SCG weekend. A list of the cards, and the number of copies played. If everyone played 4, we'd have 64

Brainstorm 48 of 64
Gush 36 of 64
Merchant Scroll 40 or 64
Ponder 23 or 64

the only decks not running 4 Brainstorm were 2 Dredge, 1 Stax, 1 Workshop aggro. This should be a sign that something was fundimentally wrong with the card. Same with gush, in more than half the decks. Merchant Scroll, same problem... And Ponder would have been the same, but they put the early restriction on it.

If you really look at it... These cards made up 75% of the field... Something if fundamentally wrong with a format that includes EVERY CARD EVERY PRINTED, and most of the decks start with the same 40 or so cards...

I think this will finally break the lull of NO deck originality we have suffered through for the last 3 years.

Good job wizards!!!

[bluemage55]

Then, according to your criteria, let's just go ahead and restrict Force of Will, which sees more play than Brainstorm, as well as Leyline of the Void, Polluted Delta, Underground Sea, Flooded Strand, Duress, all of which see greater play than Merchant Scroll.  Wasteland and Thoughtseize see more play than Ponder.  After all, all of those cards inhibit creativity, right?

Let's also keep an eye out for any cards that require thinking, since they take time for players to use properly.  Let's make every Vintage deck as mindless as Flash. *sarcasm*

Prevalence of a card is not criteria for restriction.  Otherwise, FoW, dual lands, Fetch lands, and Duress would have gone a long time ago.

[Drummer79]

Prevalence of a card is a major part of restriction.  You need to look at the history of magic to understand that.

But it's a combination of the prevalence of a card and it's ability to warp the format that lead to the ultimate decision.

FOW holds the format together

Fetchs and duals are parts of mana bases, and only help produce 1 mana... not 3 like shops (which may be next) and will not get the axe

Duress, well, you got me there... except it wasn't a part of the current format  rather, not as large a part as Brainstorm   but that may change

[bluemage55]

Prevalence of a card is a major part of restriction.  You need to look at the history of magic to understand that.

But it's a combination of the prevalence of a card and it's ability to warp the format that lead to the ultimate decision.

That's my point.  I suppose I should add the word "alone" after prevalence.

What I'm arguing is that you're post does not in any way argue that the restricted cards warp the format.  All you have stated is that the cards show up a lot.

FOW holds the format together

Take out the blue cards that support it, and you will see less FoW, and thus a format poorly held together.  Brainstorm -> FoW is an integral part of ensuring that blue can stop combo.

Fetchs and duals are parts of mana bases, and only help produce 1 mana... not 3 like shops (which may be next) and will not get the axe

Indeed.  But they are prevalent, which is all your original post shows is needed for restriction. 

Further, you said that Wizards restricts cards when it becomes necessary to play 4 of them because everyone else does.  Dual lands and fetch lands fit that criteria well (in fact, people play more than 4).  And wouldn't it be wonderful for deck originality if players didn't have fetch lands and dual lands to fall back on?

[Drummer79]

Further, you said that Wizards restricts cards when it becomes necessary to play 4 of them because everyone else does.  Dual lands and fetch lands fit that criteria well (in fact, people play more than 4).  And wouldn't it be wonderful for deck originality if players didn't have fetch lands and dual lands to fall back on?

Fetchs and duals are parts of mana bases, and only help produce 1 mana... not 3 like shops (which may be next) and will not get the axe 

as I said before...

And I could have made my points on why they all belong restricted, I'm just showing the facts on part of why they are

[bluemage55]

Fetchs and duals are parts of mana bases, and only help produce 1 mana... not 3 like shops (which may be next) and will not get the axe 

as I said before...

Do you understand that I'm pointing out the fact that your criteria are inconsistent?  Whether or not a card is part of the mana base has no relevance on its restriction status.  However, you have argued that the restrictions are the best idea ever because the restricted cards are prevalent.  What I'm arguing is that you're being logically inconsistent.

And I could have made my points on why they all belong restricted, I'm just showing the facts on part of why they are

No, you're not.  Clearly, prevalence and deck originality is not why they are restricted, because there are other more prevalent cards that are not restricted.

If you can't put together a coherent argument as to why these restrictions are good, then don't post.  TMD is a place for quality discussion, and if all you're going to say is ZOMG, I LIKE THE RESTRICITONS BECAUSE THEY GOT RID OF PREVALENT CARDS I DONT LIKE AND KEPT THE PREVALENT CARDS I DO LIKE, then don't bother posting.

[Drummer79]

As I said... i was showing PART of why they are

Fine, I'll break down why i believe they are resticted

Gush - mistake unrestricting it in the first place

Scroll - See Above

Flash - Probably could have been left off with the changes they made, at the same time, still leads to retarded 1st turns

Brainstorm - Ponder  -   Where do I begin...   well, how about they make the game LESS fun...  a lot of people hate sitting through the time it takes to resolve a brainstorm.  I've been on both sides, and ive' been and have seen the frustration. 

As was quoted from Owen Turtenwald this morning, when was the last time 35 cards in a format did nothing but dig



Now as for the rest of the cards that you are mentioning...  I'll repeat that MANA BASES WILL NOT BE RESTRICTED...  They prefer stable mana bases.  Thus keeping fetchs in extended for another year, and for printing the new filter lands in shadowmoor.  They LOVE stable mana bases, and will not change that.

FOW was left unbanned because they killed all the cards that helped it remain good, but it's still necessary in a format with 1st turn wins.   

I was made this post to point out PART of why these cards were restricted, NOT THE ONLY REASON... 

[rkmancer]

As a hate decks player, I assume I won't consider blue as strong opponent aspect again. .
it lefts me only aggro, non-blue combo, graveyard, and artifact. .

[bluemage55]

As I said... i was showing PART of why they are

And I'm saying that if you only come up with part of an explanation, you fail to demonstrate why the restrictions are good ones.

Gush - mistake unrestricting it in the first place

Saying doesn't make it so.  Why was unrestricting it a mistake?  Did it not bring about a golden age of Vintage, according not only to popular opinion, but the opinions of skilled players such as Smemmen?  Was the unrestriction of Gush not responsible for slowing down the metagame and bringing the attack step back to Vinage?

Scroll - See Above

Scroll was not restricted to begin with unlike Gush.  "See Above" is utterly flawed.

Scroll was a good restriction because it essentially functioned as Demonic Tutor, allowing you to grab card drawing (Ancestral, Gush, Thirst for Knowledge, Brainstorm, Ponder), removal (Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall, fire/ice), and bombs (Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, Mystical -> Tinker/Time Walk/Yawg Will)

Flash - Probably could have been left off with the changes they made, at the same time, still leads to stupid 1st turns

That criteria is actually valid.  But then, if you want more interactivity, weakening Gush is not the way to go.

Brainstorm - Ponder  -   Where do I begin...   well, how about they make the game LESS fun...  a lot of people hate sitting through the time it takes to resolve a brainstorm.  I've been on both sides, and ive' been and have seen the frustration.   

So Brainstorm and Ponder should be restricted because Brainstorm takes too long to use.  That's a pathetic argument.

As was quoted from Owen Turtenwald this morning, when was the last time 35 cards in a format did nothing but dig

Is that a bad thing?  If so, why?

Now as for the rest of the cards that you are mentioning...  I'll repeat that MANA BASES WILL NOT BE RESTRICTED...  They prefer stable mana bases.  Thus keeping fetchs in extended for another year, and for printing the new filter lands in shadowmoor.  They LOVE stable mana bases, and will not change that.

You do realize that restricting Brainstorm and Ponder makes mana bases less stable?

FOW was left unbanned because they killed all the cards that helped it remain good, but it's still necessary in a format with 1st turn wins.   

And you realize that 1st turn wins will happen more often now, which is a bad thing, yes?

 

I was made this post to point out PART of why these cards were restricted, NOT THE ONLY REASON... 

If you're going to start a thread that calls controversial restrictions the best idea ever, I suggest you back it up with comprehensive arguments and cold, hard evidence, not the ignorant one-liners we've been seeing from you.

Quoting the Rules and Regulations of TMD: The fact that ideas are not accepted on faith isn't a knock against the vintage TMD community; the onus is always on the poster of said idea to give sufficient evidence that an idea is sound.

[Drummer79]

restricting brainstorm and ponder means mana bases have to GROW.   it means we can't run 17 or 18 mana sources anymore, now we have to run 22 or so...  I think this is better

35 cards to dig IS a problem...   I'm including Gush and scroll with the previous two on this...   With that much digging and tutoring, you are goldfishing more than interacting with the opponent.  Is brainstorming really interacting with the opponent?   No, it's a way to dig for something to be interactive with.  Now, people have to construct decks that have more than one answer to problems instead of tutoring up every single one.  It might actually require some... OMG, Skill!!!   Now you can't rely on seeing any card you want, instead, you have to game plan on playing the game, with the portion of luck that's there... which is part of the skill!!  You have to gamble on your chance to draw cards, not find them the moment you want them.  This may actually lead to people holding that mana drain or force of will for the one thing you only have 1 answer for in the deck... and have to draw to have... 

I believe it's the best idea ever because it's going to FORCE creativity on people.   As of the 20th, decks have to start over, not start with 40 of the same cards...   they are suddenly down on the average of 14 cards, leaving them with 26 cards, of which 7 to 8 are power, and the rest are mana   I for one look forward to a format where the 7th brainstorm/ponder finds the answer, that instead, that player had to play magic to win, not dig from turn 1 til the end of the game.

[bluemage55]

restricting brainstorm and ponder means mana bases have to GROW.   it means we can't run 17 or 18 mana sources anymore, now we have to run 22 or so...  I think this is better

Again, you're not offering any explanations besides "I think this is better".  Why are bigger mana bases for blue decks a good thing?  Does that not necessitate more digging, which you criticize below?

35 cards to dig IS a problem...   I'm including Gush and scroll with the previous two on this...   With that much digging and tutoring, you are goldfishing more than interacting with the opponent.  Is brainstorming really interacting with the opponent?   No, it's a way to dig for something to be interactive with. 

Digging and tutoring is finding ways to interact with an opponent.  If you cannot find solutions and responses to your opponent, then you really are goldfishing.  If all you do is haphazardly throw whatever cards you draw at your opponent, is that interactive?

Now, people have to construct decks that have more than one answer to problems instead of tutoring up every single one.  It might actually require some... OMG, Skill!!!   Now you can't rely on seeing any card you want, instead, you have to game plan on playing the game, with the portion of luck that's there... which is part of the skill!!  You have to gamble on your chance to draw cards, not find them the moment you want them.  This may actually lead to people holding that mana drain or force of will for the one thing you only have 1 answer for in the deck... and have to draw to have... 

So according to you, more luck is "part of the skill!!"  *rolls eyes*

Having digging and tutors to find what you means that you're tested for your skill on what to tutor and dig for.  If you don't have those tutors and digging, then all you're doing is casting whatever you happen to be lucky enough to draw.  That's not skill, that's luck.

I believe it's the best idea ever because it's going to FORCE creativity on people.   As of the 20th, decks have to start over, not start with 40 of the same cards...   they are suddenly down on the average of 14 cards, leaving them with 26 cards, of which 7 to 8 are power, and the rest are mana   I for one look forward to a format where the 7th brainstorm/ponder finds the answer, that instead, that player had to play magic to win, not dig from turn 1 til the end of the game.

And after a few months, you'll see decks with a new set of prevalent cards.  Because ultimately, there will always be some cards that are better than others. 

Restricting cards to force creativity is absolute stupidity.  One, it's only a temporary solution.  Two, all you're going to do is take turns restricting things until everyone plays highlander.

And again, why not restrict dual lands, fetch land, wasteland, and duress if you want to force creativity?  All of those cards are very prevalent.

[Harlequin]

I have read the entire thread up to this point, But I'd like to repond to the Original Post for sec.

Restriction more cards will inevitably lead to -MORE- time spent in decision making.  It doesn't mater if they restrict tutors/smoothers... because right now you could build a highlander deck of only tutors and smoothing cards.  So the 4x restriction actually does nothing to cut down on the number of tutors/smoothers in a deck.

Conser the following deck:
22 Badlands
30 Lightning Bolts
4 Vampiric tutors
4 Imperial Seal

While this deck runs a mighty 8 tutors.... there is almost no time spent on the decission of what to tutor for.  You either need a 2nd land drop, or more damage.  The logic tree litterally has 2 branches.

Now consider this deck:
4 Vamp
4 Imp Seal
26 lands/mana
26 1-of cards, some combo peices, some control/removal, some draw (but no tutors). 

The number of tutors in this deck remains the same as 7xBolt=Win.dec  But I guarentee you any player playing this deck will take more time to resolve a tutor.  Not that this has nothing to do with wether or not the tutor itself is restricted.


The restricted list in vintage sets it appart from all other formats (minus highlander I guess) in terms of decission tree complexity.  With so many 1-of's in every deck, the amount of time it takes to explore even 1 or 2 branches of your tree is much more than any deck running 15x4-of.  By restricting more and more and more cards you simply make that problem worse and worse and worse.

[Razvan]

... so restricting brainstorm is good because everyone is smennen the only time he actually did take 10 minutes to use it?

that's horrific logic.

besides, you talk about history. i seem to recall magic taking off when people realized brainstorm + fetchlands could make things interesting.

[Harlequin]

I'm not sure if you're responding to me or to the opening post.... but If you're responding to me then you totally missunderstood me.

My point was that if your one and only purpose is to lower the amount of time it takes to make decissions then unrestricted cards is by nature a superior tactic than restricting cards.

[Razvan]

I'm not sure if you're responding to me or to the opening post.... but If you're responding to me then you totally missunderstood me.

My point was that if your one and only purpose is to lower the amount of time it takes to make decissions then unrestricted cards is by nature a superior tactic than restricting cards.

it was the original post

i agree with your post.

[Concentration]

Thank you for this, Brainstorm was the most obnoxious card in the format by far.  Plus judges are way too lenient on calling slow play surrounding the card

My own idea to nerf blue was to restrict both blue fetchlands rather than Brainstorm.  That would've also hit the shuffling interaction with Brainstorm to some extent.

[Kraken]

Even if it takes more than to resolve that 1 restricted tutor, since you will be resolving less tutors overall that means that you have good odds of having less total time in match resolving tutor abilities.  Its basic maths and I agree with the original poster on that point.  2 time 5 minutes is shorter than 1 time 8 minutes... even if you wait more for that one time.

[xycsoscyx]

The problem with restricting it based on the time is that it promotes bad judges.  Judges SHOULDN'T let people take too long to resolve a Brainstorm, but with only one in the deck, people are going to take LONGER because they know that's it, they can't keep smoothing things out after that one Brainstorm.  If you take longer than a minute to Brainstorm, then you shouldn't be playing that deck (or you should be in Top8 where there is no time limit, anyways).  Restricting it would be ridiculous if it's purely because they think it takes too long to resolve, so there has to be another reason.

[Demonic Attorney]

We already have a thread on this subject.  In fact, at the time I make this post, it's the thread immediately above this one.  It has 8 pages of replies.  Thread closed.