TheManaDrain.com
September 25, 2025, 02:59:33 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: [Deck] Crime and Punishment  (Read 5474 times)
TheBrassMan
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 692


AndyProbasco
View Profile
« on: August 03, 2008, 01:30:58 am »

The performance of my Champs deck left me uninterested in working on it much further.  I had notes written out for a tournament report, but they're riddled with embarrassing play errors and lucky draws, so I'm probably keeping it suppressed unless particular interest is raised.  Despite this, the list appeared to be a fan favorite, and some opponents, spectators, and eavesdroppers asked a lot of questions about it, and a bunch asked me for a list.  

Resolved Intuition is very very broken in the deck, and almost invariably resulted in a response something along the lines of "oh wow, I didn't realize one Intuition could get you out of this previously seemingly favorable game state"  That said, it's more vulnerable to grave hate than something like Slaver or the new Painter deck, probably runs too many mana sources (I had to mull a hand of 5-6 sources maybe 6 times on the weekend), and seems to have a rough time against shops, despite Loam and a pretty aggressive sideboard.


Disruption:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Stifle

Broken Restricted Tutors and Draw Spells:
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Intuitions and Things to get with Intuition:
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Intuition
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
1 Recoup
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

I'm Inexplicably Afraid of Stax and Aggro:
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Repeal

I Guess you Have to Stop Dredging and Win Eventually:
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Empty the Warrens

I Run Too Many Mana Sources:
6 Blue Fetches
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

Sideboard:
1 Stifle
3 Duress
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Extirpate
3 Yixlid Jailor


I don't see myself putting in much more work on the deck out of principle, but it's a blast to play, people think it's fun to watch, and it's probably only a few cards away from being totally reasonable.  Certainly happy to answer any questions about the testing I already did though.
Logged

Team GGs:  "Be careful what you flash barato, sooner or later we'll bannano"
"Demonic Tutor: it takes you to the Strip Mine Cow."
misslehead3
Basic User
**
Posts: 57

misslehead3@hotmail.com misslehead3
View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2008, 02:22:39 am »

how did the singular hand disruption card and 2 stifles work against combo decks for you, it seems like they would roll you over,

All in all though it looks like an interesting deck to play, albight be kinda strange, how does it play, like gifts or it kinda seems like it plays out like Cerebreal Assassin, control the game using strange cards like intuition until you combo out all of a sudden and then just win.
Logged
zeus-online
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1807


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2008, 11:38:59 am »

Seems like the deck is begging for some card-draw...like DA or AK...both of them are however pretty dependant of the yard, so i'm not sure if that's the right engine Smile

25 Sources dosn't seem like all that much to me, i usually run 24-25 in a drain deck anyway.

/Zeus
Logged

The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
Cavius The Great
Basic User
**
Posts: 379


I'm realer than you.

King+Cavi
View Profile
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2008, 12:22:11 pm »

I'm confused... Where on earth are the Crime/Punishments??  Wink
Logged

Creator of Nourishing Lich & Enchantress Bloom.

PM me if you're interested in serious Vintage testing on MWS.
Polynomial P
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 351


Your powerpill has worn off.


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2008, 01:11:51 pm »

Im a bit surprised to see raven's crime in vintage, but Ive been testing it in my legacy loam and it is INSANE. Nice job Brassman on an innovative deck idea. How did you finish for the day?
Logged

Team Ogre

"They can also win if you play the deck like you can't read and are partially retarded."  -BC
oneofchaos
Basic User
**
Posts: 569


bikerofalltimes dv_bre
View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2008, 01:32:54 pm »

I'm confused... Where on earth are the Crime/Punishments??  Wink

The crime is that you are playing vintage, the punishment is you play brassman.  I have to totally test this out!
Logged

Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?

"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
TheBrassMan
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 692


AndyProbasco
View Profile
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2008, 10:54:36 pm »

how did the singular hand disruption card and 2 stifles work against combo decks for you, it seems like they would roll you over,

All in all though it looks like an interesting deck to play, albight be kinda strange, how does it play, like gifts or it kinda seems like it plays out like Cerebreal Assassin, control the game using strange cards like intuition until you combo out all of a sudden and then just win.

singular hand disruption card, 2 stifles, and 8 counters you mean?  The combo matchup is fine, it's not dominant but that's unrealistic.  You're not really going to get a deck that breaks like 60% against a good pilot because Long gets unbeatable hands, wins the die roll, etc.  The testing I did made me feel the deck was in the 55%/60% range, which was what I felt was the right area to shoot for.  If they don't get the win before you get Intuition, it's difficult for them to make many profitable plays besides Will.  I do bring in another Stifle and 3 Duress in the match, and I guess there's nothing wrong with pre-boarding in the right field.  My tournament matches against Long-style decks all went very smoothly, and my testing made me comfortable with the match, but we're obviously talking small sample size here, so it's possible it's a dog in the matchup.  I'd be very loathe to cut anything that handles shops however, as in tournament play that was the biggest stealer of match wins. 

As for the how it plays question, it depends.  If the game state is nonthreatening, you can go off like gifts, though with one less card from intuition, it requires a little more available resources than gifts did.  You can always get like Recoup Tinker Walk, but games are rarely slow enough that that play's right.  With a Lotus or Will or Walk or Recoup in your hand though (or say, 2x Intuition), you can get away with a lot more.  When it's not possible to win, generally because something threatening is on board, or maybe because you think they for some reason have counters but didnt' use them on the Intuition, you can usually dig out of it.  Unfortunately, though the goofy answers can dig you out of tons of bad game states that other games would lose, the deck can have some trouble turning that into a win.  Sometimes (in critical tournament situations) huge advantage can be generated between Raven's Crime, Strip Mine, and Grudge, only to lose to topdecked (or worse, Mystical'd for) Will.

Quote from: zeus-online
Seems like the deck is begging for some card-draw...like DA or AK...both of them are however pretty dependant of the yard, so i'm not sure if that's the right engine Smile

25 Sources dosn't seem like all that much to me, i usually run 24-25 in a drain deck anyway.
The list evolved from an intuition list that ran DAs, but I was underwhelmed by them compared to just getting loam/crime/strip in the same situations, DA is a card I'd love to have an excuse to run, but it was usually too slow to be relevant.  AK I'm pretty sure is just bad.  If I could find a more efficient/relevant threat assembly I'd love it, but I think DA and AK are just too much wheel spinning.

It's totally possible that the lands were right, and I just got very unlucky on the day (and would make me feel better, too), but at some point after losing enough matches you have to look somewhere besides luck, and given my huge amount of mulligans, I'm pretty dubious about the lands.

Quote from: Cavius the Great
I'm confused... Where on earth are the Crime/Punishments??  Wink

I couldn't decide between:
Crime and Punishment
The Perfect Crime
Crimes Against Humanity, or
Crimes of Passion.

I went with Russian Classical Literature, because seriously, you gotta love those guys.  The fact that it's another card name sucks, I know Sad, I was hoping to get a foil Russian Raven's Crime to seal the deal, but no luck before the event Sad
Logged

Team GGs:  "Be careful what you flash barato, sooner or later we'll bannano"
"Demonic Tutor: it takes you to the Strip Mine Cow."
oneofchaos
Basic User
**
Posts: 569


bikerofalltimes dv_bre
View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2008, 11:30:24 pm »

I just had a 12 game playtest vs the alleged creator of the deck on MWS (haha).  He played one deep analysis which seemed to work for him with his intuition piles.  I must admit, realizing he was netdecking wasn't the greatest testing, as I fetched to force him into stifling my land instead of my tendrils.  He also played flame jab which despite it's sorcery speed, still killed my confidants dead.  Also it's a bomberman deck of sorts with intuition as the trinket mage, it has lots of answers and card advantage opportunities.  I don't know if duress belongs md over stifle, I've felt doesn't pack the power I want it to game 1.

PS- Dostoevsky would be proud Wink
Logged

Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?

"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
McBain
Basic User
**
Posts: 43


View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2008, 08:36:54 pm »

Curious over taking jailer over other forms of hate for ichorid.
Logged
DarkfnTemplar
Basic User
**
Posts: 80


View Profile Email
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2008, 12:51:18 am »

This deck could benefit from a bazaar or two.
Logged
Demonic Attorney
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 2312

ravingderelict17
View Profile
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2008, 01:12:27 pm »

Having played against an earlier iteration of this concept at ELD's Mox XIV, I want to offer the following.  The deck seems it like it suffers from two principal weaknesses, one minor, the other one major.  Its minor weakness is that the main engine is vulnerable to graveyard hate at a time when graveyard hate seems strong against the field.  As a result, the deck seems vulnerable to splash hate.  For example, Tormod's Crypt seems to disrupt a lot of your offense, whether it's your endgame Yawgmoth's Will or your midgame Life from the Loam + Raven's Crime/Strip Mine. 

The major weakness I noticed in this list is that a lot of its gameplans don't come online very quickly.  LtfL + Strip Mine/Raven's Crime can be strong, but seem like they might take a bit of setup to really get going.  Even when those plays do come together, it seems like the average Vintage deck has a window of at least a couple of turns before you really start hampering their resources.  What makes that especially significant is that, without a strong card-drawing engine, I worry about this list's ability to keep up with other blue-based control decks.  For similar reasons, when I played combo against an earlier version of the deck, I was able to just churn out a stream of threats until one got through. 

Additionally, Raven's Crime seems like a significant risk against Slaver and other decks that run Goblin Welder, which seem like they'll be more prevalent in light of the Worlds results.
Logged

ErkBek
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 974

A strong play.

Erk+Bek
View Profile Email
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2008, 11:58:23 am »

Having played against an earlier iteration of this concept at ELD's Mox XIV, I want to offer the following.  The deck seems it like it suffers from two principal weaknesses, one minor, the other one major.  Its minor weakness is that the main engine is vulnerable to graveyard hate at a time when graveyard hate seems strong against the field.  As a result, the deck seems vulnerable to splash hate.  For example, Tormod's Crypt seems to disrupt a lot of your offense, whether it's your endgame Yawgmoth's Will or your midgame Life from the Loam + Raven's Crime/Strip Mine. 

The major weakness I noticed in this list is that a lot of its gameplans don't come online very quickly.  LtfL + Strip Mine/Raven's Crime can be strong, but seem like they might take a bit of setup to really get going.  Even when those plays do come together, it seems like the average Vintage deck has a window of at least a couple of turns before you really start hampering their resources.  What makes that especially significant is that, without a strong card-drawing engine, I worry about this list's ability to keep up with other blue-based control decks.  For similar reasons, when I played combo against an earlier version of the deck, I was able to just churn out a stream of threats until one got through. 

I've built a lot of decks similar Brassman's list, all of which ultimately had the problems you outlined. Through my failed attempts, I've decided with Intuition you're better off just drawing a whole bunch of cards or accelerating a Yawg Will rather than getting utility cards.
Logged

Team GWS
zeus-online
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1807


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2008, 01:24:36 pm »

I've actually grown kinda fond of Intuition -> DA, DA, Darkblast vs. Control slaver Smile (In my pet Hulk deck)

But i definetly think Intu is best served as a major card-drawer or a kill-Setup-Card. (Setup will, WGD or whatever)

/Zeus
Logged

The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
Anusien
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 3669


Anusien
View Profile
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2008, 04:44:40 pm »

Having played against an earlier iteration of this concept at ELD's Mox XIV, I want to offer the following.  The deck seems it like it suffers from two principal weaknesses, one minor, the other one major.  Its minor weakness is that the main engine is vulnerable to graveyard hate at a time when graveyard hate seems strong against the field.  As a result, the deck seems vulnerable to splash hate.  For example, Tormod's Crypt seems to disrupt a lot of your offense, whether it's your endgame Yawgmoth's Will or your midgame Life from the Loam + Raven's Crime/Strip Mine. 

The major weakness I noticed in this list is that a lot of its gameplans don't come online very quickly.  LtfL + Strip Mine/Raven's Crime can be strong, but seem like they might take a bit of setup to really get going.  Even when those plays do come together, it seems like the average Vintage deck has a window of at least a couple of turns before you really start hampering their resources.  What makes that especially significant is that, without a strong card-drawing engine, I worry about this list's ability to keep up with other blue-based control decks.  For similar reasons, when I played combo against an earlier version of the deck, I was able to just churn out a stream of threats until one got through. 

Additionally, Raven's Crime seems like a significant risk against Slaver and other decks that run Goblin Welder, which seem like they'll be more prevalent in light of the Worlds results.
Are you suggesting to add Deep Analysis or to play another deck?  You say " I worry about this list's ability to keep up with other blue-based control decks." but is that because you think the Intuition piles themselves are slow, or because Intuition is slow?
Logged

Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator

Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.351 seconds with 22 queries.