[Deck] Post Restriction UWB Fish

[Pomaxx]

dear masterminds,

with brainstorm and other goodies getting the cut, i sense my pet deck of choice becoming more competitive once again.
i do assume the following
-mana fixing will become more difficult, now that brainstorm is gone
-hiding cards from discard gets harder, making duress like effects more powerful
-do some extent even FOWing will be seen to a lesser extent (as brainstorm was able to a)dig for force od b)dig for blue card to pitch)
-less explosive combo-tendrils and no more GAT
-more workshop aggro and ichorid

not the worst scenario to give my loved fish+chips a new chance.

please note that the following list is far from beeing my perfect pile. its just what i liked after some test runs (against 9sphere aggro and control slaver).
i will try to explain questionable card choices and would love to hear some constructive criticism.


lands/
3 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 underground sea
3 tundra
1 island
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

mana artifacts/

1 black lotus
1 mox pearl
1 mox sapphire
1 mox jet


artifacts/

3 null rod


creatures/

3 j. grunts
3 aven mindcensor
3 dimir cutpurse
2 kataki
1 exalted angel


spells/

4 swords to plowshares
4 duress
2 repeal
1 extirpate
4 force of will
2 mana leak
1 time walk
1 ancestral
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 vindicate
1 vampiric tutor



dimir cutpurse yes, i do play him over dark confidant. i already run few blue cards to be pitched to FoW, so those extra 3 via cutpurses are nice. with two mana out i want to play null rod as the primary choice (or Kataki/Grunt) and having a 3 drop fits my mana curce pretty good. he doesnt soak up my life and with 4 swords and 2 repeals i have a fair chance to remove blockers.
if this guy does what he is supposed to do for two turns, that should seal the deal.

repeal bounces chalice @1 and @2, lets me draw and rarely is a dead card.

mana leak needs more testing, but with the mana denial route this seemed solid. maybe  going from 2 to 3 is some good.

vindicate not sold on this, but with less misdirections around this may act as a solid solution where eveything else fails and if needed just nukes a fetched basic to fit the mana denial route. fetched via demonic or vampiric if needed.

exalted angel whenever she showed up, she was amazing.

vampiric over mystical, as it fetches null rod or a needed creature if needed. not blue, which is bad.

no will say what? the card is a must? i know...i just felt three grunts that eat my grave a lot of times as well cut my off the grave anyway.

[Kiriyuu]

Hello!

I'd try to fit in 4 thoughtseize as well at the 4 duress, as these in combination can be really savage, and there may well be less misdirection for thoughtsieze to totally backfire!

Take care.

robert.

[Pomaxx]

well, maybe 4 thoughtseizes would be a little overkill, but yes, i would like to squeeze in 2 of them somehow.

would like to fit in an extra extirpate as well. it doesnt affect board position now, but i would like to attack the mana base or draw engine with that.


edit:
i didnt expect that much feedback 

whats up? i thought there would be a lot of passionate ex-fish lovers around, throwing their cards together

[mogz]

I always have a place in my heart for the "Fish" decks and now that I'm into Vintage I really wanted to try it...

Playing those combo decks and Oath is fun but I also would love to try this deck.

So... no Meddling Mage on the list?

[Mantis]

You make the assumption that Workshop and Dredge are likely to improve and gain in popularity, that makes me wonder; How is this deck a better metagame contender in the your presumed metagame? I mean I fail to see how you have a good matchup against Workshop or Dredge.

My ideas on how to fix the deck;
+1 Kataki
+4 Stifle
+4 Daze
+4 Confidant

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Exalted Angel
-1 Vindicate
-3 Cutpurse
-2 Repeal
-2 Mana Leak

These changes give you a better chance of taking advantage of weakened manabases. Daze reinforced by Kataki, Stifle, Null Rod and Wasteland is great as it leaves your opponent no choice but to walk right into Daze and hope you don't have it. You also take full advantage of the absence of Brainstorm this way. I would reconsider Mindcensor though, with the absence of Merchant Scroll, TfK might be the drawengine of choice. Mindcensor is obviously garbage against Stax and Ichorid.

Personally just think Repeal, Mana Leak, Vindicante, Exalted Angel and Swords to Plowshares are bad picks. Consider a one-of Echoing Truth as your bounce of choice, it can return Colossus and negate EtW. Confidant is just plain better than Cutpurse in my book, as it gets played on turn 1.

[Pomaxx]

You make the assumption that Workshop and Dredge are likely to improve and gain in popularity, that makes me wonder; How is this deck a better metagame contender in the your presumed metagame? I mean I fail to see how you have a good matchup against Workshop or Dredge.

i did not say fish (or better: my fish build) is perfectly suited to beat ichorid. most of the time you can go on and sideboard before game 2, after you have been demolished game one.
however, 3 Grunts for graveyard removal, wastelands for bazaar handling and 4 swords to plow his men may buy some time here and there and if you are lucky even sneak a win here and there. my point is: its not completely desperate pre sideboarding.

i tested against agrro workshop (Metalworkers, Juggis and the like) and null rod together with kataki and swords to plowshares put me in a fair position pretty often.

the metagame never consists of just two decks, but even if ichorid and aggro shops show up in numbers, i feel confident with some minor adjustments maindeck (like adding an additional Kataki) to be competitive pre and post sideboard.

regarding your card suggestion:

+1 Kataki
metagame call, but this will be possible (exangable with a Mindscensor)

+4 Stifle
i have had good experiences with stifle in the past but i want to be proactive and play a duress first turn or Null rod with moxen. leaving blue open for stifle i dislike in the first turns and later on its very situational. fetches have to be handeled by Mindscensor or if a nonbasic shows up, wasteland takes care.

+4 Daze
i agree about the use of daze and maybe i will try to squeeze some in to make sure the early game is mine(for the Leaks and Vindicate). Mana Leak, on the other hand, acts as a hardcounter later on most of the time (due to the heavy mana denial aspect of the game), which i like as well.


+4 Confidant
i know Confidants are strong and maybe the best "draw engine" fish has to offer. i just love the special ability of the Cutpurse but last word isnt spoken about that.


Swords to plowshares is absolutely great. it takes care of Welders, Platz, Colossus, Goyfs, Juggis, W. Dragon, Ichorid crap, Confidants. never leave home without them. the are absolutely golden and untouchable.

Exalted and Vindicate as singletons may look a little random (i cannot deny, even if i want) the Angel was very strong if she got online and i would be willing to raise the exalted count to 2, if not many wastelands show up.
Vindicate could be dropped, even though its a strong card if not many Misdirections are around.

Cutpurse gets not much cretit, but i like the dirty taxcollector alot. 3 mana fits my curve pretty good and if needed, he is blue and pitches. together with 2 repeals and 4 swords blockers are often removed to make sure he gets to the throat.

i love repeal. it cantrips and is never a complete dead draw. may secure your critters/rod, bounce cheap threats, whcih can be removed via Cutpurse discard or Duress afterwards.

Mana Leaks are a new adding, as i wanted at least a little counter power. maybe i will test smtg else here.

I would reconsider Mindcensor though, with the absence of Merchant Scroll, TfK might be the drawengine of choice. Mindcensor is obviously garbage against Stax and Ichorid.

Mindcensor is bad against Stax and Ichorid and its the first critter to scream "i am tired, send me to bench and let our substitute do the job!" when it comes to sidebording. i still expect some other decks packing fetchlands (like Control Slaver) or some search, where they prove to be good.

[madmanmike25]

lands/
3 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 underground sea
3 tundra
1 island
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 strip mine

mana artifacts/

1 black lotus
1 mox pearl
1 mox sapphire
1 mox jet


artifacts/

3 null rod


creatures/

3 j. grunts
3 aven mindcensor
3 dimir cutpurse
2 kataki
1 exalted angel


spells/

4 swords to plowshares
4 duress
2 repeal
1 extirpate
4 force of will
2 mana leak
1 time walk
1 ancestral
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 vindicate
1 vampiric tutor

Vampiric Tutor is rated R....for Restricted.

Why do you want to up the cc of your creatures and still keep a relatively low land count?  I don't forsee Aven being a house anytime in the near future unless you can get him out turn 1 off a Lotus with a high degree of consistency.  More often than not, fetches will come down before Aven does.  Expect more basic islands in the format since Brainstorm is gone.  That means if you want to go the mana denial route, it would be beneficial to have a lower cc.  Perhaps test Shadow of Doubt, but I honestly think the previously mentioned Stifle is better.  The Stifles will help you cast FoW more often.

Play with BOTH Confidants and Cutpurses.  Then get rid of Angel.  Phage might be be amazing when she comes out too.  So?

Vindicate is a nifty card.  Rock it if you can.

No offense, but STP is the best spot creature removal.  Period.  Why anyone would suggest you take this out of a Fish deck is beyond me.

repeal bounces chalice @1 and @2, lets me draw and rarely is a dead card.

Unless I'm way off, casting Repeal on CotV@1 will get countered since the Chalice cmc is 0 and Repeals cmc would then be 1.

I also agree to adding in the 3rd Kataki for the upcoming meta.

Good luck,
Mike

[nineisnoone]

Serum Visions?  It's always sort of been a card I'd like to be good. Though I don't expect the new meta to suddenly make it played.

Since you don't run draw, why not run Chains of Mephistopheles? (Well you run Ancestral, but you can just throw that at your opponent if Chains is up. Instant speed discard 3! Woho!)  Scroll is gone, and raw draw for U (like TKF or AK) will be in and Bazaar seems to be making it's way as an option for many decks.

Agreed on not running the Avens... was never the one would would want to play them though.

[Pomaxx]

Vampiric Tutor is rated R....for Restricted

my mistake.
decklist will be updated

  I don't forsee Aven being a house anytime in the near future unless you can get him out turn 1 off a Lotus with a high degree of consistency.  More often than not, fetches will come down before Aven does.  Expect more basic islands in the format since Brainstorm is gone.  That means if you want to go the mana denial route, it would be beneficial to have a lower cc.  Perhaps test Shadow of Doubt, but I honestly think the previously mentioned Stifle is better.  The Stifles will help you cast FoW more often.

stifle does its thing and so does Mindcensor. i now do play 2 of those nasty birds and they almost never disappointed me.
you are totally right: fetches will come down before the bird, which i am fine with. hitting the first fetchland is nice, but not a gameplan i have to stick to. usually i drop Mindcensor asap EoT or in response to a tutor like effect (fetch, m.scroll, d. tutor, tinker, intuition....there are more ways a Mindcensor comes in handy than you might think). what makes Mindcensor superior are two things a)he is a beatstick with evasion and b) does its thing as long as he remains on the table. furthermore he may be used proactive, which is important to me. i dont have to wait (like with stifle) for the moment to use it, leaving mana open.

during testing Mindcensor was solid and almost never a dead card in hand. in some matchups he is more useful, in others less, but never dead.

Play with BOTH Confidants and Cutpurses.  Then get rid of Angel.  Phage might be be amazing when she comes out too.  So?

the more i play with Cutpurses, the more i like them.

Exalted might be dropped at the end, but until now she will remain mainboard. if i get to flip her over against other aggro, its a huge thread. in worst case scenarios she is a morph.

Phage was a nice joke, uh?

Unless I'm way off, casting Repeal on CotV@1 will get countered since the Chalice cmc is 0 and Repeals cmc would then be 1.

to be honest, i dunno (when it comes to rules, i am still at "last in, first out"..hehehe).
CotV@1 has cc of 1 colorless+ 1 colorless= 2 colorless, or am i wrong?

Since you don't run draw, why not run Chains of Mephistopheles? (Well you run Ancestral, but you can just throw that at your opponent if Chains is up. Instant speed discard 3! Woho!)  Scroll is gone, and raw draw for U (like TKF or AK) will be in and Bazaar seems to be making it's way as an option for many decks.

i run Cutpurses as a draw engine
Chains would have been better with BS around.



here is my updated decklist:


//Mana
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

//Creatures
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kataki
3 Cutpurses
1 Exalted (under investigation)


//Stuff
4 FoW
4 StP
3 Null Rod
3 Mana Leak (fighting with Daze)
3 Duress
2 Repeal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vindicate (might remove it or add count to 2, dropping a StP)
1 Thoughtseize
1 Extirpate

[Mophead-Masquerade]

I would not switch Mana Leak to Daze, unless you do add 4 stifle. Dark confidant is better than Cutpurse because you can get him out earlier.

Maybe you could try to start with an SS shell, with both confidant and cutpurse, then splash some white for jotun grunt aand what not.

On Repealing chalice, X in a casting cost is zero anywhere but the stack. so in play it costs zero, and if you attempted to repeal it your repeal would be countered.

[garathiel]

I think that now the deck is much similar to Dark Tang , an italian vintage deck.

4confidant
2/3 of the new ninja cc3 ( don't remember the name)
without critter cc1 , and full of 3stp , brainstorm , ponder , mystical , sensei's , stifles
grunts + kataky + nullrod

I would suggest 1x merchant_scroll + 1x echoing truth

[Pomaxx]

I think that now the deck is much similar to Dark Tang , an italian vintage deck.

4confidant
2/3 of the new ninja cc3 ( don't remember the name)
without critter cc1 , and full of 3stp , brainstorm , ponder , mystical , sensei's , stifles
grunts + kataky + nullrod

I would suggest 1x merchant_scroll + 1x echoing truth

well, i dont reinvent the wheel and its likely some SS or other UWB fish builds decks look similar to mine.

after some testing i found 3 Jotun Grunts just one too much. Extirpate as a singleton is great, but random and i will cut it off to play 3-4 in the sideboard. Exalted i often tutored for game one against aggro or whenever i needed to have a huge evasive creature. without its morp ability he would be too clunky here and there, but the lone flyer won me some matches all by herself.

the repeal issue i was wrong about, so i replace one with Echoing Truth.
the mana leaks proved to be great. with the mana denial its a hard counter most of the time and even with the weaker mana base of my 3 colour wasteland supported build the CC isnt much of a problem.

the single free slot i try to test  Balance in now.



//Mana
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

//Creatures
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kataki
3 Cutpurses
1 Exalted


//Stuff
4 FoW
4 StP
3 Null Rod
3 Mana Leak
3 Duress
1 Repeal
1 Echoing Truth
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Vindicate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Balance

[Pomaxx]

I put together some sideboard, assuming the Meta will consist of some CS, Ichorid, Fish/Aggro, Shop and  Combo.

2x Massacre (against UW fish builds)
1x Kataki (after boarding i want to see Kataki in the Shop matchups asap and raising the count to 3 helps a lot)
1x Hurkyls Recall (again a card improving the Shop matchup)
3x Orims Chant (C-C-Combo pawnage)
3x Extirpate (obviously)
1x Exalted (coming in against Aggro)
1x Moat (with 2 maindeck tutors its possible to get it even as a singleton and this should add some headache to the other Aggro deck)
3x Spell Snare (against CS, maybe Oath or other Drain related Control decks)



edit: replaced some cards