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Author Topic: So Few Insane Plays - The Vintage Apocalypse: Demolition Slated For 6/20/08  (Read 12477 times)
MMD
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« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2008, 02:31:30 am »

Sorry for posting off topic:

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2007 VINTAGE WORLD CHAMPION

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There is a reason why Stephen Menendian is the Vintage Worlds Champion!

Let´s be objective and fair to non US-players and call it like it is:  Vintage Championship
To be World Champion you have to compete with more than a handful of non-US players.

Thanks

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deadlock
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« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2008, 08:55:02 am »

I would prefer to stay on topic.

The following comes from an outsider who mainly plays Legacy, so i might now have the full insight. I was drawn into Vintage about one year ago by one deck: Meandeck Gifts, because of its incredible namesake card and the possibilites it offers in vintage.
Unfortunatly Gifts became restricted and i kept watching the format, but was displeased with the unrestriction of Gush and the rise of Flash. Which has the following reason, there is no skill involved to win with these cards, this applys especially to Flash.
This might be a little bit over the top, but my point is that the restriction should consider the skill component more than anything else. Both Gifts and to a lesser degree Brainstorm require quit a bit of thinking, which is the most attractive thing about Vintage in my opinion. Tight play is rewarded concerning these cards and the Storm archytpe in genrel, which leads me to the 'unfun' argument. This applys most to Flash (and Trinisphere back in time), simply because it makes winning too easy. There is no skill involved to have a two card combination on your opening hand, your enemy will never have the feeling that he was outplayed by you.

There is no way to remove the dominace of blue over Vintage, which is in my opinion a good thing, because it allows the most interaction / complex plays most of the time. So why even bother and restrict the skill intensive cards like Gifts for something like Flash (which was corrected halfhearted now from my pov).
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brainiac7
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« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2008, 05:49:00 am »

Would it be possible to unrestrict Gifts after all of this mess? It feels like it's just not broken enough to be restricted at this point. Similar to how Gush was taken off the list ( akin to a rotation almost ) perhaps it's time for Gifts to 'rotate back in' to Type I again. With all the current restrictions, it's time for the 4cc spells of Gifts and FoF to come off the list, IMO. That doesn't feel as big a mistake as bringing back Gush was ( which really didn't bother me much )

I could be missing some very strong point for Gifts current need to be restricted and would love to hear it.

Cheers,

VS
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slyfer
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« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2008, 06:58:24 am »

Gift won't be unrestricted. Play intuition.
1 colorless mana = 1 more card tutoring was too much for Wizard.
Fair and simple.
I hope they will unrestrict brainstorm and ponder!! Because there is now way brainstorm=ponder=ancestral recall....No way!
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Smmenen
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« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2008, 09:46:59 am »

This article becomes free today.

This is my article going through what I see will be the Vintage decks of the future back at the moment of the announcement of the restriction of Ponder, Flash, Brainstorm, Scroll and Gush.

For those of you who don't have premium, let me know what you think! 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 10:18:58 am by Smmenen » Logged

bluemage55
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« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2008, 12:06:41 pm »

For those of you who don't have premium, let me know what you think! 

Very well-written article, as always.  I appreciate the history lesson introduction, as it was quite helpful given that I only started Vintage in 2002.  I'm sure other newer players appreciate that as well.

I competely agree that Scroll should have been the only card restricted.  It is an absolute shock that the DCI chose to completely ignore the most obvious solution and swat the format with a warhammer when a knife was needed.

History has proven you very correct that Vintage will become more expensive.  DeMars and McCarthy have found our BS replacement in Strategic Planning, and it's now $125 a copy, compared to the 25 cent BS (alongside similarly cheap Gushes).

I argued in the wake of the restrictions that the decision was financially motivated on the part of WotC.  I stand by that argument now.  They're a company that I have always held in high regard, and are responsible for overseeing not one but two of my hobbies (D&D being the other), but recent events dealing with both reek with the taint of Hasbro policymaking.  The only rationale I can see for the DCI's ridiculously heavy-handed policy shift is that the recent "Golden Age of Vintage" was composed of cheap, older staples that are not likely to have an impact on sales of newer sets.  Better for WotC to take those cards out of the picture, so we can have more people tearing open packs for rare staples like Tarmogoyf and Thoughtseize.  I would not be surprised if we see a rare Brainstorm replacement in coming sets along those lines.  I wonder if they'll restrict Duress too, or if that would be too obvious?
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Smmenen
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« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2008, 12:26:08 pm »

For those of you who don't have premium, let me know what you think! 

Very well-written article, as always.  I appreciate the history lesson introduction, as it was quite helpful given that I only started Vintage in 2002.  I'm sure other newer players appreciate that as well.


Thank you for your comments.   I thought the first thing I should do was contextualize these restrictions by basically looking at restrictions over the last 10 years.   The closest thing we saw to these restrictions was the wave of 18 restrictions in 1999.

One of the key points to see is that when you restrict that many cards, you sweep too broadly.

As I said in the article:

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I think the danger of mass restrictions is illustrated quite vividly by the 1999 wave. In 1999, 18 cards were restricted. It has taken a decade, but more than a few of them are now unrestricted: Voltaic Key, Doomsday, Mind Over Matter, and Hurkyl’s Recall. A few more don’t deserve to be there: Mox Diamond and Dream Halls stand out, among others. When you sweep with a broad brush, you are likely to sweep out the good (or irrelevant) with the bad. In this wave of restrictions, I think that Gush and Ponder were safe and undeserving. Restricting Scroll and Brainstorm means that Gush-bond as an engine is dead and buried.

My reference to Mox Diamond and Dream Halls appears prescient now.   

But, if you look at the 18 restrictions in 1999.   I would say that almost half of them were unnecessary.   A full third of them are now unrestricted or on their way to being unrestricted.

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I competely agree that Scroll should have been the only card restricted.  It is an absolute shock that the DCI chose to completely ignore the most obvious solution and swat the format with a warhammer when a knife was needed.


I like your metaphor.

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History has proven you very correct that Vintage will become more expensive.  DeMars and McCarthy have found our BS replacement in Strategic Planning, and it's now $125 a copy, compared to the 25 cent BS (alongside similarly cheap Gushes).

I argued in the wake of the restrictions that the decision was financially motivated on the part of WotC.  I stand by that argument now.  They're a company that I have always held in high regard, and are responsible for overseeing not one but two of my hobbies (D&D being the other), but recent events dealing with both reek with the taint of Hasbro policymaking.  The only rationale I can see for the DCI's ridiculously heavy-handed policy shift is that the recent "Golden Age of Vintage" was composed of cheap, older staples that are not likely to have an impact on sales of newer sets.  Better for WotC to take those cards out of the picture, so we can have more people tearing open packs for rare staples like Tarmogoyf and Thoughtseize.  I would not be surprised if we see a rare Brainstorm replacement in coming sets along those lines.  I wonder if they'll restrict Duress too, or if that would be too obvious?

The price barrier to entry is a truly unfortunate consequence.   Flash and GAT and Tyrant Oath were all incredibly cheap to build. 

I would be cautious about ascribing an shadowy motive here.     I think Wizards actually believed that they were doing what was best for the format.    I think Wizards, in all things, is motivated to do what will make them money.  But I believe that they think that if they manage Vintage well, then the magic brand thrives and they make money that way.   I don’t think they’d intentionally hurt Vintage.   
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bluemage55
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« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2008, 12:43:17 pm »

I would be cautious about ascribing an shadowy motive here.     I think Wizards actually believed that they were doing what was best for the format.    I think Wizards, in all things, is motivated to do what will make them money.  But I believe that they think that if they manage Vintage well, then the magic brand thrives and they make money that way.   I don’t think they’d intentionally hurt Vintage.   

I wouldn't say that they would intentionally hurt Vintage, but that could be an unintended consequence of their actions.  Those same financial motivations do at times bring good things, as the wonderful wave of Vintage playables we saw in 2007 did contribute to making Vintage more fun to play, even if it did mean buying a lot more packs to get them. 

So while I definitely agree Wizards is motivated to make money, I think the implication is that at times, this means they will do things that run against conventional wisdom (seeing as no one foresaw nor asked for the restriction of Brainstorm, let alone Ponder).  It's also difficult to explain some of their moves in any other light.  Don't get me wrong; I fully believe WotC has a right to do what it wants to in order to meet their bottom line.  I just think it might be slightly overoptimistic to not suspect anything's up when they do things like restrict Ponder.
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hauntedechos
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« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2008, 01:36:27 pm »



Another well composed piece Steve.  I recently had to let my subscription go so having a chance to read this was great!  thank-you for your efforts as always.

I would have to admit that the greatest upset in this whole matter was that my little budget combo decks (Tropical Storm and NLD) were nuked.  In the end, I was very happy with the Gush Bond era as it allowed me to play Vintage in tournaments w/o going over the five proxie limit we have here.  I do not own any power or any of the $100 and up cards, so I suppose it's back down to the low level tables with Fish I go and even there I am taking a beating with having my Brainstorms torn from me.  I could go on about how much more upset about the b/r list I am, than dealing with unfair Flash decks, but what's the point.  As you have stated, the likelyness of me getting my Brainstorm back is...well...whatever.

   Further on all of this, the restrictions have sent us back in time to a meta that we've already seen.  Yes we have a few new faces to ensure that it isn't a carbon copy but by enlarge it's Slaver (yay $125 dollar card  x4, WICKED!!! thanks!!!!), Long.Dec with Painted taking Gifts place and Ichorid and Shops fighting with Fish for the king of the Top8 consistency slot.

    So what did we get in the end?....err...Personal Tutor, disadvantageous moxen and a few  {U} cards that, given the restrictions before they came off, are going to be awkward to play.  The format will continue to work itself out.  As you have stated in your article Steve, it's doing much better now than it has in a long time.  I wonder how true bluemage55's comments may ring in the future.  I mean I would really be disheartened to see another Brainstorm printed as a rare in an upcommin set.  Not from the point of view that I don't want Brainstorms, just that it would be a very underhanded thing to do.  Especially when you consider the amount of money that Vintage players shell out, just to start off with decks that are not going to win them tournaments (sorry, correction there, Dave Feinstein won a tourny with {U} based Fish) and usually say no to them at the Top 4 slots (incidentally, that is where one could split and make some cash towards buying power).

    I know that I will continue to play Vintage and that I will continue to try and build the Vintage scene in my area.  I just really wish they would be more willing to admit they made a mistake and give me back my damn Brainstorm.  Gush and Ponder would be nice as well so I could play something in the tournaments that has a chance (I only played one Merchant scroll anyways as I perferred Doomsday).

Haunted.
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