What happened to belcher?

[skrwbal]

me and a friend of mine have recently decided to get back into playing vintage. After testing several of the current decks in the format i noticed that it seems rare that any one is playing belcher. So i decided to put it together and it seems to be doing consistantly well. here i one of the lists we came up with.

2 elvish spirit guide
4 simian spirit guide
3 street wraith

1 ancestral recall
4 dark ritual
1 demonic consultation
3 guttural response
4 manamorphose
1 pyroblast
1 vampiric tutor

1 channel
1 demonic tutor
2 empty the warrens
1 imperial seal
4 land grant
4 right of flame
1 tinker
1 wheel of fortune
1 windfall

1 black lotus
2 chromatic star
4 goblin charbelcher
1 lions eye diamond
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 memory jar
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 mox pearl
1 mox ruby
1 mox saphire
1 sol ring

1 bayou
1 taiga

s/b
n/a

this is by all means not a final list but something to start out on. The reason i ask what happened to belcher is that with the printing of cards like guttural response and manamorphose plus the un restriction of chrome mox ( havent built with it yet ) why is it that people seemed to have abandoned this archtype? p.s. any suggestions or idea much appriciated.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I played Zero-Land Serious Belcher to a 3-2 record in Baltimore this weekend.  The deck is very strong against Drain-based control decks, weak against combo decks running Force of Will, and a coin flip against almost everything else.

http://magictothenthdegree.blogspot.com/2008/09/blue-moon-belching-in-baltimore.html

Serious Belcher.  Seriously.

4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens
4x Goblin Welder
2x Storm Entity
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar

4x Rite of Flame
4x Tinder Wall
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Manamorphose
3x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
1x Channel
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Grim Monolith

4x Guttural Response
4x Street Wraith

Sideboard
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Tormod’s Crypt
2x Storm Entity
1x Gaea’s Blessing

This list was very good to me.  I lost fair and square to Oath, beat Meandeck Keeper, lost a heartbreaker to TPS, beat Slaver, and raced a Dream Salvage combo deck.  The only cards I would consider changing would be the maindeck Storm Entities (which lost me two games and won me one), but I'm not sure there's anything better to run really.  Maybe maindeck Desperate Rituals, but Storm Entity seems better than those.  The sideboard was awesome.

[Troy_Costisick]

Thought about Pact of Negation or Gutteral Response to protect your combo?

Peace,

-Troy

[skrwbal]

yeah i tested pact but if i wasnt going first it was horrible. Response is already in the list and is spectacular because you can just rfg a guide and play it.

[islanderboi10]

Here is my list, it has been good to me as well.
Though I haven't taken advantage of the unrestriction of Chrome Mox yet, I still like running the land...

1-Land Belcher

Win Conditions:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Living Wish
4 Goblin Welder

Mana:
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Manamorphose
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Channel
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

Draw:
4 Street Wraith
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar

Protection:
3 Red Elemental Blast

Land:
1 Taiga

SIDEBOARD:
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Taiga
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Storm Entity
1 Stingscourger
1 Eternal Witness
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Caustic Wasp
3 Gutteral Response


The deck has been pretty consistant with me as well. I like having two colors because seems to make the deck have a more solid core, than have to worry about having black mana and whatnot.

Thoughts?

[Troy_Costisick]

Response is already in the list and is spectacular because you can just rfg a guide and play it.

Oops, sorry.  Didn't see it!   I like it in Belcher decks too.

Peace,

-Troy

[GrandpaBelcher]

I liked having Taiga too, but that doesn't make up for being able to cut Land Grant and replace it with more Chrome Mox.  Having to reveal your hand and say to your opponent, "Here are my plans, please... be gentle," wasn't a good way to open a game.  Running Chrome Mox, Guttural Response, and Manamorphose together is terrific though, especially since everything in the deck is red or green.  The mana, which was good before, now feels really stable.  I think I mulliganed only four times in five rounds and never went below six cards.

@ skrwbal - I would recommend cutting blue from your list and seeing where that gets you.  You should free up some room by being able to cut Chromatic Stars (which are pretty terrible nowadays) as well.  I couldn't make Chrome Mox work to my satisfaction in a BRg or BR Belcher list, but you might have different luck with it.

@ islanderboi - Your list looks like mine from before Chrome Mox's unrestriction.  I'm not sure about your metagame, but I cut Living Wish because I wanted something faster against opposing combo decks.  It was never around when I needed it, often around when I didn't, and slow even as a bait spell.  Plus, it made my sideboards not work as actual sideboards; four-ofs are the way to go when you're playing a deck that lives and dies in its opening hand.  I am glad to see you're using the Caustic Wasps tech, though.

[islanderboi10]

Yea Caustic Wasp has been so good for me.
Turn 1 Caustic Wasp against shope decks and I have had them scoop before.
It is redic.

yea I haven't played it much, though, since I built the deck.

[icy_triskelion]

Lochinvar81

Here's my current list:

Artifacts:19
1 Black Lotus
4 Goblin Chrabelcher
1 Mana Crypt
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion Eye Diamond
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
2 Chrome Mox

Creatures:21
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
4 Street Waith
4 Timber Wall
2 Storm Entity

Sorcery:14
4 E.T.W.
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Land Grant
1 Channel
4 Rite of Flames

Instant:5
3 PyroBlast
2 R.E.B

Land:1
1 Taiga

Sideboard
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Gathan Raiders
2 Hunting Pack
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Seething Song
1 Boil
1 Tsunami

I'm still messing around with side broad.  The Boil and Tsunami might change to Ignited Memories for the Shop matchup.  And as for why only 2 Chrome Mox, I rather have an extra protection/disruption spell.   

[zeus-online]

Just wanted to chime in with our current belcher list, it's not perfect or anything...and it's more vulnerable to cards like chalice and sphere then previous builds...BUT, it's way faster then any other version we've tried. It's also very consistent...:

Mana: (33)
1 Bayou
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana vault
1 Mana crypt
4 Chrome mox
2 ESG
4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 Mana morphose
4 Land grant
1 Channel

Stuff: (4)
4 Street wraith

Das broken shits: (15)
4 Infernal contract
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's bargain
1 Demonic tutor
1 Demonic consultation
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Imperial seal
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral recall
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of fortune
1 Memory jar

Das Kill: (4)
4 Goblin charbelcher

Other: (4)
4 Unmask

Can't remember what we cut to make room for LED, I believe it was either the 4th Street wraith or the 4th infernal contract.

The deck could use another win condition, like EtW or Tendrils.

The chrome moxen has been amazing! There's always some junk you don't need, and it really helps with our old problem which was "FoW your land grant, GG"
Unmask also works pretty well. (Although we've been using this in the past aswell.)
Additional spirit guides could be usefull for getting through sphere of resistance, 'cause you really only need to get something on the table for the rest of the acceleration to come down.

Another thing to note is: This list needs alot of black cards, so cutting any of them could make the deck more unstable.

The main things to consider for the list would be Chain of vapour or Empty the warrens...aswell as additional Spirit guides.

/Zeus

[GrandpaBelcher]

Zeus, do you find that you still need the Land Grants and Bayou in your build?  What would you cut to make room for a tutorable Tendrils kill?  Would Duress (Thoughtseize, whatever) be better than Unmask?  Between Unmask and Chrome Mox you're really tearing your own hand apart.

[zeus-online]

The "tearing your hand apart" problem hasn't been an issue so far, there's almost always something you're willing to pitch since the deck just wants to explode turn 1 or 2...And thus you have cards you probably don't have the mana to play.

Land grant is less necessary then before, but i'd still play 4, simply because lands are good! Lands are also important for sideboard construction.

Hmm we're still working on the decklist, but to do the tendrils kill 1 tendrils and yawgmoth's will should be added, maybe removing an infernal contract and possibly some mana source.

Will isn't in the deck as it's pretty much always been a dead draw for us, although it might be a tad better now with chrome moxen (Since afterall, it's pretty powerfull...and you can just pitch it if it's not going to be good enough.)

Unmask is more or less a leftover from our previous builds, since the main thing we where loosing to was FoW on land grant...But saving 1 mana is still pretty darn good in this deck.

Designing a sideboard for this deck is quite difficult though, since the main problems are hard to address (spheres, chalices, null rods, meddling mages etc.) But i'd imagine that ESG's,SSG's and EtW/oxidize might be a good approach.

The match up's basicly look like:
Drain based decks: You are often too fast for them to reliably deal with you, the deck just goes all in turn 1 or 2...and often both turn 1 and 2.
Workshop decks: If you start you should win, unless they play null rod....Then they have a chance of doing something relevant when(if) they get a turn.
Ichorid: They need bazaar+chalice or they're dead.
Aggro-Control: They have force and null rod...and null rod spells doom, so in order to avoid that you need to kill them before they reach 2 mana...Which is actually quite probable. - Oh and they might have meddling mage...it's difficult to win through mage on belcher, since you need to resolve tinker.
Combo decks: This deck is way faster then long, so that match-up is favorable...Haven't tested against TPS yet, but i'd imagine that they got a better match-up simply because of force of will.

Anyway, point is: Main problem is workshops and aggro-control, to which spirit guides, EtW and oxidize are good answers. This might also make a sideboarded taiga quite usefull.

/Zeus

[skrwbal]

still testin the build i posted from before. i do like the blakc build but i feel like its slowly gunna turn into a bad tps deck. Also in the build i posted were messin with some of there numbers so that we can fir one more blast and a twister in it. If you end up running the black build you definatly need a way to cast tendrils. the main reason i like the build i messin with more than the black i because of all the draw 7's. it seem more consistent thats all. im gunna try the blakc build and post back some ideas on i though.