[Discussion] Vintage B & R list

[wiley]

Fastbond coming off the list would make all stax players switch to green.  It is that broken.  You can now play wasteland, workshop, crucible first turn.  You can also play workshop workshop and have 6 mana available first turn.  When they find the strip mine you will never have more then one land in play.  There is already some incentive to play green Stax but this would put them over the top, and is just such a bad idea.  Almost as bad as un-restricting channel.

Your opinion of this is overblown.  You describe scenarios similar to turn 1 wins for long builds.  They will happen, but not always.  You also have to realize that the loss of welder is huge for any workshop based deck, and most stax/shop aggro decks don't like running multiple colors (5c not withstanding).  Indeed the real problem is that other, non-stax decks can get a late turn strip/waste lock thanks to fastbond (even though they need to be at a reasonable life total).  Overall it just means that there is one more bomb to be on the look out for when playing against green decks.

Also, what, other than tarmo and fastbond, is incentive for a stax deck to run green?  Other than blowing up enchantments and artifacts there is an artifact for everything.

[Harlequin]

I can't understand how 'Fairness' factors into Restriction AT ALL.  Unless they announce that "people with Blond Hair can only run 1 brainstorm" - then we're ALL playing the same B/R List.  So the Fairness is always the same. 

So I think the only relevant discussion around Restriction is what -effect- the change would have on the Global Meta.  Then you have to step back and subjectively decide does this Meta-shift make me happy or unhappy.  Then we all cast our Happy/Unhappy ballots and hopefully the majory of the people are Happy.  No one change will EVER make everyone happy, nor will a change ever make the format "unfair."   "Safe" is another word that confuses me.  'Safe to unrestrict this' I take that to mean 'This will probably make more people happy.' 

Below are my predictions of what would occur if a certain card were unrestricted.  I tryed to avoid my personal Happy/Unhappy votes, but I'm sure some of my feeling poked through.

* P9 - Unrestricting anything here would just dramatically change the format.  It really wouldn't be vintage anymore.
* Draw7s - I think in general unrestricted draw7s makes the format too swinggy.  Again it bearly would resemble vintage anymore.
* Yawg and Tinker - Iconnicly 'vintage' level brokenness.  Debating the unbanning of either of these cards and predicting all the ripples is an essay, not just a blurb. 

That Leaves the rest of the list...

* Balance - Would make 5c Stax(less) decks absolutly amazing.
* Brainstorm - Doesn't do much outside of make blue decks even more consistant.  I've though alot about what Ponder and Brainstorm are and what the've been replaced by.  Really, they've been replaced by basic lands in control, and chrome mox or cabal rits in combo.  Brainstorm lets you replace lands with cantrippy smoothers.  Which is by all accounts better than lands.  This means that without it you need to up your land count which means you will have more issues with being mana flooded.  You would think this is good news for non-blue, but actually it means blue decks run more basics now.  So wasteland is now less effective.
* Burning Wish - Solid _SOLID_ combo peice.  Easily adds a likely unhealthy amount of consistancy to Rit based combo.  Probably the only card better for Rit Combo would be DT.
* Channel - Again just a really solid mana source that can abused by many Storm and Linear Combo decks.
* Crop Rotation - Its definatly an interesting card.  5c Stax(less) gets another way to find Stripmine that has other uses.  It would probably allow non-rit storm combo decks to come out of the woodwork (namely tide/tolarian combo).
* Demonic Consultation - A dangerous inhand cheap tutor that is amazing in your opening hand, but gets progressivly worse and worse as the game continues.  Fits well in 'all in' turn-1 decks.
* Demonic Tutor - Technically not P9 but easily as strong.  Lets just say that Rit is doing just fine with 1 DT.
* Enlightened Tutor - I would personally like to see Enlightened Tutor come off the list.  I think it would actually help diversify decks a little.  Lets face it white is gaining stregth but it still needs help.  Topdeck tutors are often not very strong, but I would like to see a CounterBalance-Top deck with 4 Etutors.  (a personal pet legacy deck).
* Entomb - Again I don't fear entomb.  It would help make mana'd Ichorid better, It would help Dragon, and maybe even make other outliers like reanimator playable on a budget.  The issue with Entomb is that Graveyard hate is plentify for all Colors (or more accurately no color).  Graveyard decks are and always will be in a Tide Cycle of going from really good against the meta to being Meta'ed against.  I doubt that there will ever be a true balace between GY decks and GY hate, because they are always inverse in meta-quality.
* Fact or Fiction - Oh FoF, you're so good.  Intuition, FoF, Gifts.  So much can be said about the flaws and merits of these cards.  Sliding the restriction bar up or down on these cards is a fine way to ratchet up or down on Mana->Card Advantage/Quality ratio avaible to blue.
* Fastbond - Fastbond is a card that could be a powerful centerpeice to a combo.  I think that if it were to be unrestricted sure landstill and 5c stax(less) decks would be happy.  But I think the real outcome would be a new genre of combo: BondCombo. 
* Flash - We all know what Flash looked like in the meta when It had Merchantscroll, Storm, Ponder.  What would it be after? Like Fastbond surely it would add a new genre of combo: FlashCombo.  It may not be as consistant as its Jan-June forefather, but It would definately be tried.
* Frantic Search - I know that if Frantic Search and Crop Rotation came off the list simultaniously, my first tought would be to try out Tolarian-Storm Combo. Probably with Hightide.  Possibly going the reset route, possibly the "springtide" route with Cloud of Faries + Snap.  But by nature of the beast, you need to have turns to put lands into play.
* Gifts Ungiven - I never really played the old Gifts decks.  At the time Jer and I were notorius Anti-Gifts players.  I actually really liked the Gifts/Anti-Gifts meta, it really made me the designer I am today.  That being said, This card is an engine, and an extremely powerful one at that. 
* Grim Monolith - This card is bad.  Now that Combo decks have Chrome Mox, Land-stilly-creature decks have Mox Diamond, I don't see why Brown Decks can't have Grim Mono.
* Gush - Again, the Gush/Anti-Gush Meta was fun while it lasted.  But even I admit it got a little boring.  While I agree that GAT with Gush but not MS/BS/Ponder is probably not viable - I think Tyrant Oath would do just fine with it's backbone card back.
* Imperial Seal - Its a topdeck sorcery tutor.  This is poor.  It means that true Rit-Storm combo can't use it unless it fills itself with cantrips.  This means it's only really a tool useful to Linear Combo decks.  I think 5c Stax(less) would again find use with this card because it gets the uncounterable Stripmine.  And for this reason It's probably too good to be unrestricted.
* Library of Alexandria - Personally I would -love- to see what an unrestricted LOA meta would look like.  Especially here in the North East.  I think it would it would be a very interesting debat about what the proper Main-LOA's and SB-LOA's count would be.  But I think it would lose it's charm very quickly, and it would make tons of non-blue people sell there collections.  So for now its only a thought experiment.
* Lion’s Eye Diamond - Who doesn't love Madness??  I don't know, if its good(bad?) enough for Legacy, why not let the vintage players use it?  If anything its probably worse in vintage because why play infernal tutor over DT? why play IGG over Yawg?  Can a deck really support them all? I say probably not.
* Lotus Petal - I say why stop at Chrome + Mox D?  Give us the full range of Legacy Mox as well as our P9.  Chalice for 0 and null rod increase in powerlevel and everyone is happy?  Maybe it makes turn-1 decks too consistant.
* Mana Crypt - ok, line drawn.  Way WAY too close to Mox-colorless to be off the restricted list.
* Mana Vault - I'm personally ok with Mana Vault being off the list.  I think if you can run Dark Rit, you should be able to run Mana Vault.  The power is that it is amazing with sphere effects.  But sphere's arn't the end of the world.  If storm combo gets Dark Rit, Shops should have Mana Vault.
* Merchant Scroll - The Blue DT.  IMO I am in the camp that Merchant scroll was a legitamate restriction, given where the power levels settled.  Blue is already the most popular color, and all the best blue spells are instant.  So I find it hard to justify giving blue 5x DT when everyone else gets 1.
* Mind’s Desire - This card is one of those cards that is just way too stupidly good to run 4 of in a deck.  Chaing Desire->Desire is like just so much winning its hard to fathom. 
* Mystical Tutor - If you wanted a control v combo meta, just unrestrict Mystical tutor.  I don't even think Control would bother running it, but combo definately would. Combo would use mystical to just blow any deck not running countermagic outa the meta.  Control would actually ~want~ combo to run Mystical because It means you can effectively 2-for-1 them every time.
* Necropotence - again, a safe restriction.  Unrestricting it would mean Combo v Control-Burn? 
* Ponder - I think this was restricted on paranoia more than anything else.  I also think that this is what has turn many off to vintage.  Here is why:  Blue-Players are bummed because they now have to run boring basics, no opportunity to innovate, no opportunity to out-play or make decissions, makes the deck unfun and clunky.  -BUT- Not bad.  And that bums out the Anti-Blue-Players.  Anti-Blue still has a hard time against blue because they run basics... and still control/combo them out from time to time.  So who is happy?  No one.  Smooth.
* Regrowth - Regrow is not DT or Merchant Scroll or any other tutor.  Unless of course they make Shadow of Doubt Cost a 0 mana artifact, or a Leyline of Doubt.  'Tutoring' the graveyard is a dangerous place given the availibility of powerful and cheap GY removal.   
* Sol Ring - Again, Mana Vault is on the boarder for me... Sol Ring is just too reusably delicous.  Restricted along with the P9.
* Strip Mine - Crop Rotate, Imp Seal, Vamp Tutor: All probably ok, but getting Strip Mine makes it too good.  So on the bring side, if we Unrestric Strip Mine then we can safely unrestrict 3 cards!  ...right.
* Time Vault (Effective September 20, 2008) This is probably fine.  Its good.  It combos with an unrestricted 1 mana colorless card.  I don't think many decks would run 4, but I think blue-TV decks would certainly go to 2, and thus increase consistancy.
* Tinker - Hillarious! who needs any other winconditions!
* Tolarian Academy - Same arguement as Stripmine.
* Trinisphere - I think Unrestricted Tinisphere was a good 'growth' period for the format.  It really solidified alot of common understandings that we take for granted.  Namely, the power of Fetchlands, as well as the realization that Sphere and Crucible are often the stronger non-turn-1 plays.  I think It probably wasn't 'as unfair' as the vocals made it sound.  However I like it restricted because it means Shop decks are less cookie-cutter. 
* Vampiric Tutor - Really this card combines the two aspects of Mysticals instant-ness and Imperial Seals Stripmining.  We have a ways to go before Vamp comes off the list.
* Yawgmoth’s Bargain - Unrestricting Bargin would lead to a rise in either pure-black-rit combo, or a heavy-Rit + some blue splash combo decks.  I think the play would be lead turn 1 with duress, and just try to drop a mega-bomb on turn 2. 

[Oath of Happy]

How about Pact of negation?  I think its the card that pushes Flash and Ad nauseam over the top and makes them unfair.  Sure it doesnt nothing vs duress, null rod, chalice, or leyline, but it basically seals wins in an unfair way by allowing these decks to win on turn 1 or 2 with free counterbackup.  In type 1, 5 mana is too much for people to use the card in control and allow them to tap out to cast spells in their mainphase while being able to still have a counterspell to cast.  Therefore, the card's only real use in decks is to make broken decks unfair.  Now instead of them having a turn 1 or turn 2 win off 1 easy spell, you can even stop them with a force of will, or some other disruption, because they have a free counterbackup card that makes them lose the game next turn...but there is no next turn, beuase they just pulled a stupidly fast win off a cheap combo. With brainstorm, and scroll gone, restricting PON would probably make Flash a fair deck, and it would make Ad Nauseam less unfair.

Another card I would like to see changed is Mox Diamond.  I think it would be a fun card to play with if it were restricted, but changed back to its original wording, as Flash and Phyrexian Dreadnought were.  I have heard two arguments for why this cant be done:

1). It would be strictly better than Lotus Petal.  Well, if it that were true then it still wouldnt be valid because it would be restircted and youd probably want to use both, just as people use Black Lotus and Lotus Petal even though Black Lotus is strictly better (excluding mana burn).  There are a ton of cards printed that are strictly better than other cards, such as Ponder>Omen, Negate>Flash Counter, Demonic tutor>Imerial Seal>Cruel Tutor.  Also, Lotus Petal would be arguably better than the Diamond in Drain decks.

2).  When Mox Diamond was printed, the rules were that you couldnt resond to the trigger with a spell anyway, so it would be changing the cards original intent.  Well, we play an eternal format and things change.  You couldnt respond to a lot of things, like Dreadnought, but that doesnt stop us from playing the card differently.  Also, at one time Interupts couldnt be responded to be instants.  That was changed making every counter a little weaker and every non counter instant a little better.  Spell resolution procedures and the "stack" were modified, making certain cards work differently than thier original intent, but that doesnt mean that we errated every card to work the same way it did in the past.

I think that In type 1, mox diamond is as it is, is not viable except in a few decks for example parfait.  If it were changed to its original wording, we would have a much more powerful card, and it would be restricted, so it would be exciting to have a "new" card to play around with in decks, just like Imperial Seal and Grim Tutor when Portal became unbanned.  In legacy, If the diamond were to be too powerful than they can just ban it like they do with a ton of other good cards, because the card should play like its original wording unless it really is too powerful in which case mox diamond would not be.  

Those are a few of my thoughts on the B&R list.  What do you all think?

[Vegeta2711]

because the card should play like its original wording

They FIXED Mox Diamond already. The way it is now is far better than the way it was before.

[wox2]

* Burning Wish - Solid _SOLID_ combo peice.  Easily adds a likely unhealthy amount of consistancy to Rit based combo.  Probably the only card better for Rit Combo would be DT.
* Lion’s Eye Diamond - Who doesn't love Madness??  I don't know, if its good(bad?) enough for Legacy, why not let the vintage players use it?  If anything its probably worse in vintage because why play infernal tutor over DT? why play IGG over Yawg?  Can a deck really support them all? I say probably not.

I don´t agree with you on this verdict. Safer is to unrestrict Burning wish that is inferior to Grim Tutor in my opinion. I will play 4 LED 4 Infernal in a deck If noone else. None IGGY, but four of thoose two + Demonic and Will .

* Mana Vault - I'm personally ok with Mana Vault being off the list.  I think if you can run Dark Rit, you should be able to run Mana Vault.  The power is that it is amazing with sphere effects.  But sphere's arn't the end of the world.  If storm combo gets Dark Rit, Shops should have Mana Vault.

Mana Vault can be used in combo or combocontrols. 4 Dark Rituals and 4 Mana Vaults decks won´t make shops players too much happy.

* Yawgmoth’s Bargain - Unrestricting Bargin would lead to a rise in either pure-black-rit combo, or a heavy-Rit + some blue splash combo decks.  I think the play would be lead turn 1 with duress, and just try to drop a mega-bomb on turn 2.

How is this different from Ad Nauseam deck? One more mana - better effect. I wish to see what will be played more. 

[Marske]

Ok... I felt very compelled to stay away from posting in this thread but all this Ad Nauseam = Yawgmoth's Bargain thus it must be banned pulled me over the edge.

I've been playing and working on ANT since the card was spoiled and I wrote a mini primer about it in the vintage open forum and trust me when I say this (and The_Spooky_Kid and Smmenen will both agree with me on this I think) that Ad Nauseam is NO Bargain... not even close. So there is no need to restrict AN just yet. If they unrestricted Bargain I'll quit working on ANT and just play 4 Bargain.dec Ad nauseam would be useless.

As for B/R list updates I would like to see the return of Gush and Ponder the rest got banned for a good reason and should probably stay banned.

Now let me explain why Gush and Ponder:

Gush:
It's just a solid draw engine combined with fastbond it would make Tyrant Oath and GAT or Hulk more or once again playable without being overly busted due to the lack of BS, Scroll which are the real backbone of the Gushbond engine.

Ponder:
It's no brainstorm but helps you smooth out your draws a bit (which isn't a bad thing imo) and it's a sorcery. I think it got axed out of fear instead of logic.

Now I'm going back to trying not to post in this thread....

[Oath of Happy]

because the card should play like its original wording

They FIXED Mox Diamond already. The way it is now is far better than the way it was before.

OK, they changed the errata on Mox Diamond recently.  I wouldn't say that it is "FIXED" or: far better than the way it was before."  On a scale of 1 to 10 id say the card is about .3 better than it was before.  All I'm saying is that I think the card could be fixed further and it would actually see play in more decks as a one of if you could tap it for mana before sacraficing it if you chose not to discard a land.

[IthilanorStPete]

because the card should play like its original wording

They FIXED Mox Diamond already. The way it is now is far better than the way it was before.

OK, they changed the errata on Mox Diamond recently.  I wouldn't say that it is "FIXED" or: far better than the way it was before."  On a scale of 1 to 10 id say the card is about .3 better than it was before.  All I'm saying is that I think the card could be fixed further and it would actually see play in more decks as a one of if you could tap it for mana before sacraficing it if you chose not to discard a land.

Barring a massive change in the mindset of the WotC Rules department, that's not going to happen, because that wasn't the original functionality.

[Harlequin]

* Burning Wish

I don´t agree with you on this verdict. Safer is to unrestrict Burning wish that is inferior to Grim Tutor in my opinion. I will play 4 LED 4 Infernal in a deck If noone else. None IGGY, but four of thoose two + Demonic and Will .

Its the same problem with Regrowth in that you would have trouble with graveyard hate.  In addition to that you would be more in-danger of straight losing to a counterspell that Rit Tendrils already is.  Burning wish is amazing because it lets you 'run' situational bombs and removal without having to actually run them in your deck.  Cards like Mind's Desire or Empty the Warrens are good examples.  Its a DT that can get you cards you don't actually run.  It also means you don't need to run maindeck removal.

* Mana Vault

Mana Vault can be used in combo or combocontrols. 4 Dark Rituals and 4 Mana Vaults decks won´t make shops players too much happy.

Why not?  Being able to run more Manavaults increase your ability to play Turn 1 sphere and Chalice @ 1 without drawing Workshop.  Is mana Vault really better than Cabal Ritual?  Again is probably a big stretch and it would definatly shift the meta, but I think many decks could equally benefit from it - so it wouldn't too heavily empower one given deck or even architype.

* Yawgmoth’s Bargain

How is this different from Ad Nauseam deck? One more mana - better effect. I wish to see what will be played more. 

That one mana I think would make a big differance is Style.  There's really two ways to go with combo, win on the very first turn you can, or win on the very -last- turn you can (safely).  Ad Nauseam (esp ones running Pact of Neg) certainly are gunning for the first turn they can safely win.  It makes them more disruptable when it comes to cards like Misdirrection and extirpate, as well as sphere effects.  A more TPS or Drain Tendrils deck really is holding out to win on the last turn it can safely win.  And do so with the most force as possible.  Risky cards like Pact get replaced by solid but slower cards like Mana Drain. 

Ad Nauseam in a deck ~built~ like ANT is a more powerful deck - but I contest that its only more powerful because of design.  Thats like saying that Thrumming Stone is more powerful than Black Lotus because It's better in my 25 Relentless Rats deck.  Bargin is an all around more powerful card that allows you to replace weak Chrome Moxes with even MORE powerful (and less situational) top-deck tutors.  It requires a shift though.

[nineisnoone]

Why not?  Being able to run more Manavaults increase your ability to play Turn 1 sphere and Chalice @ 1 without drawing Workshop.  Is mana Vault really better than Cabal Ritual?  Again is probably a big stretch and it would definatly shift the meta, but I think many decks could equally benefit from it - so it wouldn't too heavily empower one given deck or even architype.

I worry less about Shop (where I agree, I don't think it'd be broken) and more about other decks that run full SoLoMox for acceleration.  Removing all off-color mox for Mana Vaults is better than Cabal Ritual and notably does not compete with Cabal Ritual for deck space (since you are removing your off-color mox for them).

[wox2]

Its the same problem with Regrowth in that you would have trouble with graveyard hate.  In addition to that you would be more in-danger of straight losing to a counterspell that Rit Tendrils already is.  Burning wish is amazing because it lets you 'run' situational bombs and removal without having to actually run them in your deck.  Cards like Mind's Desire or Empty the Warrens are good examples.  Its a DT that can get you cards you don't actually run.  It also means you don't need to run maindeck removal.

There are decks that goldfishes T1 more often. I believe it is better to goldfish T1 than to disrupt your opponent T1. Ritual decks will have near the same chance to loose to counterspell but they will be much faster. Games can be changed to T1 - Force or I win... I have played Burning wish in Meandeck Gifts and I can say it wasn´t so good. I stopped playing it because I needed Tendrils in main to make deck faster. Maybe if it will be in deck works in different way but moving your bombs to sideboard is not optimal because you loose chance to topdeck them. Burning wish needs sideboard prepared for using it - 4-6 cards. Another thing is that Burning Wish is red. Mind´s Desire + Burning wish needs 2 blue and one red in one turn-not so easy for Ritual decks without LED.

Why not?  Being able to run more Manavaults increase your ability to play Turn 1 sphere and Chalice @ 1 without drawing Workshop.  Is mana Vault really better than Cabal Ritual?  Again is probably a big stretch and it would definatly shift the meta, but I think many decks could equally benefit from it - so it wouldn't too heavily empower one given deck or even architype.

T1 Sphere or Chalice without Workshops is played frequently thanks to 4 City of Traitors and 4 Ancient Tombs (and Moxes). Mana Vault has better use for combo decks - it is better than Cabal or on the same Level. T1 Ad Nauseam with Mana Vault?   

That one mana I think would make a big differance is Style.  There's really two ways to go with combo, win on the very first turn you can, or win on the very -last- turn you can (safely).  Ad Nauseam (esp ones running Pact of Neg) certainly are gunning for the first turn they can safely win.  It makes them more disruptable when it comes to cards like Misdirrection and extirpate, as well as sphere effects.  A more TPS or Drain Tendrils deck really is holding out to win on the last turn it can safely win.  And do so with the most force as possible.  Risky cards like Pact get replaced by solid but slower cards like Mana Drain. 

Ad Nauseam in a deck ~built~ like ANT is a more powerful deck - but I contest that its only more powerful because of design.  Thats like saying that Thrumming Stone is more powerful than Black Lotus because It's better in my 25 Relentless Rats deck.  Bargin is an all around more powerful card that allows you to replace weak Chrome Moxes with even MORE powerful (and less situational) top-deck tutors.  It requires a shift though.

Difference is fast - safer way to win. I am not fan of playing Bargain in deck that has just 4 Dark Rituals and I don´t like it in deck without any Ritual... As I said TPS can in my opinion plays two or three. I have no idea how to include Bargain to Drain Tendrils but it can be played in more copies in Desilussionist´s Intuition Tendrils.