oath's bad match ups?

[kibbe]

ok i'll say this up front, i'm just starting to get back into magic. really not even playing yet, but kind of like sandwich punch once you're in, you're in for life i guess. so enough of that and onto the question: what are oaths traditionally bad match ups? oath has always been a favorite deck of mine with near limitless ways to build around it. getting back into things i need to know what either decks or even single cards that pop up often enough to watch out for. thanks in advance,

kibbs

as a side note what kind of damages(money) would i be looking at needing to invest if i wanted to play a powered(including big blue) vintage deck from scratch? like 2,000 or more?

[Suicideking]

BUG fish is the only match up that ever worries me when I'm playing oath.  Sometimes straight aggro can be rough If they can race you.

For power i suggest the gunslinga.  Heres his motl list.  http://www.magictraders.com/ubb//Forum3/HTML/070359.html

[meadbert]

Bad matchups depend on the build.

In general Oath beats Stax, Shop Aggro, Fish and Slaver.

Most of the more common Oath lists (ICBM's variants) do well against Long.  They key is that ICBM Oath runs Chalice and sometimes Null Rod to go along with 8 hard counters, Wastelands and some Duress effects.  Other versions of Oath can be much more vulnerable to Long since winning in two turns is worthless against such a good deck unless you can back it up with disruption.

Oath can really struggle against Dredge.  The match up was nearly unwinable for a time.  Then once Bridge from Below was printed, Dredge could no longer keep creatures off the board, thus Oath had a fighting chance.  Tidespout Tyrant is especially powerful as a creature against Dredge since the first one allows bouncing Grave-Troll and the second allows bouncing Dredge's whole board.  Now that Akroma and Hellkite Overloard are popular again Dredge's chances are improved.
The real Problem for Oath in the Dredge matchup is that Dredge runs a large number of Enchantment removal spells in the side board to deal with Leyline of the Void.  These spells also remove Oath.

Another tough match up has been combo/control with a stable mana base.  Meandeck Gifts, Ritual Gifts and Empty Gush used to fall into this category, but they no longer exist.  For this reason I actually think Oath is strong right now!  Now you have decks like Drain Tendrils and Intuition Tendrils which can outdraw Oath to win a control war and have a stable enough mana base to play around Chalice, Rod and Wasteland before they combo off.  Finally, Oath as a card may not be that scary since they do not run creatures and thus Oath is only half the combo and also because they still have two turns to win which is an eternity for Drain Tendrils or IT.

The Composite Tezzeret list that Stephen Menendian posted recently in his article for SCG actually did fairly well against the New ICBM King James Oath list thanks to the large number of Duress effects, but it was much weaker against a more traditional ICBM Oath list that had Tyrants in the main (although to the best of my knowledge ICBM did not use Tyrants themselves.  I got this list from the world championships)  Anyway, Rod is a real beating for Composite Tezzeret because there are a high number of rodable artifacts and a high number of high casting costs cards that really want artifacts.  Also, Composite Tezzeret cannot play Mono Blue Control the way that Drain Tendrils can because of the large number of Duress effects and relatively few basic Islands.  This leads to Underground Sea being fetched and thus Tez is more vulnerable to Wasteland.

[Bone]

My Rgw beats (fish or whatever) deck has proven good against oath in matchups.

2xRonom Unicorn MD
1xKami of the Ancient Law MD
4xRay of Revelation SB

4xSwords to Plowshares MD

[honestabe]

I find that my Oath has a hardtime against Dredge

[Suicideking]

I think the side boarding strategy you have going into a tournament makes a huge difference.  I feel like I can make most top 8s with oath regardless of the field, but once i get to top 8 my sideboard always seems to make the most difference.  I often try to take different angles into match ups to catch opponents of guard.  Against hate decks I'll board out my oaths and bring in simics and just control the board till i can hard cast it.  I think sometimes the deck is strongest when you board out of the oath plan and into some other strategy.  I spend way more time working on oath sideboards then i do on my main deck. 

[Troy_Costisick]

I find that my Oath has a hardtime against Dredge

I find the same.  Dredge has always been Oath's hardest matchup IMO.  They pack tons of enchantment hate in their SB and have an easy time keeping creatures off the board if they want to.  The two decks are natural enemies.

[Suicideking]

Yeah I don't think its non winnable though.  Maybe a sideboard blazing archon and 4 tormods crypts are necessary  if you see it a lot.  Being able to waste land bazaars helps.  Cabal therapy is the card i hate the most because they can flash it back off your tokens.

[Troy_Costisick]

Yeah I don't think its non winnable though.  Maybe a sideboard blazing archon and 4 tormods crypts are necessary  if you see it a lot.  Being able to waste land bazaars helps.  Cabal therapy is the card i hate the most because they can flash it back off your tokens.

Yeah, it's a winnable matchup.  Just hard.  In addition to Crypts or Relics as GY hate, I like Needles since they are useful against other deck types too.  About how many SB slots do you devote to Dredge in a typeical deck?

Peace,

-Troy

[honestabe]

Yeah I don't think its non winnable though.  Maybe a sideboard blazing archon and 4 tormods crypts are necessary  if you see it a lot.  Being able to waste land bazaars helps.  Cabal therapy is the card i hate the most because they can flash it back off your tokens.

Platinum angel is perhaps even a more suitable creature than blazing Archon, mainly because it can fly, and then you are free to use Pact of Negations for free, without the whole losing the game thing...

[Duncan]

Platinum angel is perhaps even a more suitable creature than blazing Archon, mainly because it can fly, and then you are free to use Pact of Negations for free, without the whole losing the game thing...

Archon has wings too!

He also swings for 1 more (making it a 4 instead of a 5 turn clock), doesn't get hit by ancient grudge and you don't die immediately if something happens to him. Besides, who plays Oath with PoN these days?

Having that said I think that double Empyrial Archangel is better. And Platinum Angel is better most of the time when not playing vs. ichorid. Still I'd advocate Archangel over Archon.

[honestabe]

Touche

Anyway, I'm not saying maindeck PoN, but if you're going to be running platinum angel, why not include 4 counters for free?

[Harlequin]

Yeah I don't think its non winnable though.  Maybe a sideboard blazing archon and 4 tormods crypts are necessary  if you see it a lot.  Being able to waste land bazaars helps.  Cabal therapy is the card i hate the most because they can flash it back off your tokens.

Don't forget that if they do that, it RFG's bridges! This is because the owner of Orchard is the owner of the tokens. And creatures go to thier owners graveyard when they die, and Bridge only stipulate non-token for creating zombies not removing bridge.

[meadbert]

Yeah I don't think its non winnable though.  Maybe a sideboard blazing archon and 4 tormods crypts are necessary  if you see it a lot.  Being able to waste land bazaars helps.  Cabal therapy is the card i hate the most because they can flash it back off your tokens.

Don't forget that if they do that, it RFG's bridges! This is because the owner of Orchard is the owner of the tokens. And creatures go to thier owners graveyard when they die, and Bridge only stipulate non-token for creating zombies not removing bridge.

Is this really the case?  Does a token actually go to the graveyard?  If so can you Necromany it?

EDIT:
From the Rule book:
216.3. A token in a zone other than the in-play zone ceases to exist. This is a state-based effect. (Note that a token changing zones sets off triggered abilities before the token ceases to exist.)

So it looks like it does trigger Bridge, but cannot be Necromancied.

EDIT #2:
At first glance this seems to help Dredge since Dredge can now much more easily keep creatures off the table.  It is also a significant argument in favor of Wasteland since you can Waste Orchard and then remove the token with Therapy.  Then you can swing with Ichorids over a few turns to win.