Who wins in a 'dead' loop?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Who wins in a tournament if you have Vault-key active, Academy Ruins -> Lotus active, and no way to kill?  You're taking infinite turns but cannot kill.

Ie. Key + Ruins eats Lotus's 3 mana each turn, you return Lotus each turn...your opponent has no FoW.

[Anusien]

If you just take turns and don't advance the game state, you risk either Stalling or Slow Play penalties.  This is basically equivalent to untapping Seeker of Skybreak a billion times.

[AmbivalentDuck]

In other words, if you can't win you lose?

[Yare]

In other words, if you can't win you lose?

In other words, you have to stop taking infinite turns and give your opponent a turn. If you don't do that, then you risk a penalty.

[LotusHead]

is it possible for either player to say the game is a draw? Either offensively (say, you won game 1) or defensively (it IS game one and you are afraid you can't beat the deck anywyay?)

[Anusien]

You can offer a draw, but your opponent does not have to accept.  The game can only draw if we are trapped in a loop with no optional actions (i.e., you can't choose a different choice to get out of the loop like Animate on WGD with no other creatures in the graveyard).

In other words, if you can't win you lose?

In other words, you have to stop taking infinite turns and give your opponent a turn. If you don't do that, then you risk a penalty.

Right.

[Norm4eva]

Relevant rules text:

4.  Spells, Abilities, and Effects
421.  Handling "Infinite" Loops

421.1  Occasionally the game can get into a state in which a set of actions could be repeated forever. These rules (sometimes called the "infinity rules") govern how to break such loops.

421.2  If the loop contains one or more optional actions and one player controls them all, that player chooses a number. The loop is treated as repeating that many times or until another player intervenes, whichever comes first.

421.3  If a loop contains optional actions controlled by two players and actions by both of those players are required to continue the loop, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved, the first involved player after the active player in turn order) chooses a number. The other player then has two choices. He or she can choose a lower number, in which case the loop continues that number of times plus whatever fraction is necessary for the first player to "have the last word." Or he or she can agree to the number the first player chose, in which case the loop continues that number of times plus whatever fraction is necessary for the second player to "have the last word." (Note that either fraction may be zero.) This sequence of choices is extended to all applicable players if there are more than two players involved.

Example: In a two-player game, one player controls a creature with the ability " : [This creature] gains flying," and another player controls a permanent with the ability " : Target creature loses flying." The "infinity rule" ensures that regardless of which player initiated the gain/lose flying ability, the nonactive player will always have the final choice and therefore be able to determine whether the creature has flying. (Note that this assumes that the first player attempted to give the creature flying at least once.)

421.4  If the loop contains only mandatory actions, the game ends in a draw. (See rule 102.4b.)

421.5  If the loop contains more than one set of optional, independent actions, each controlled by different players, then the active player (or, if the active player is not involved, the first involved player after the active player in turn order) chooses a number for his or her set of actions. Knowing that number, the remaining players, in turn order, each choose a number for his or her sets of actions. It can be higher, lower, or the same. Then each set of actions occurs the appropriate number of times.

421.6  If the loop contains an effect that says "[X] unless [Y]," where [X] and [Y] are each actions, no player can be forced to perform [Y] to break the loop. If no player chooses to perform [Y], the loop will continue as though [X] were mandatory.

[Matt]

So what happens if both players are in the situation described?

Or, if it makes it simpler, what if 4 Gaea's Blessing, 56 Forest meets the mirror match? Is this an auto-draw?

[Anusien]

So what happens if both players are in the situation described?

Or, if it makes it simpler, what if 4 Gaea's Blessing, 56 Forest meets the mirror match? Is this an auto-draw?

No, and no.

In neither case will a judge or anybody force the game into a draw, but I will suggest to the players to declare a draw; I will be very curious if either one of them refuses.


Also it's hardly like either of these situations can come up in real tournament play.  If something similar would come up, either the players draw or one player concedes.  If they don't, you play through until the round ends.  Sort of like two players with Platinum Angel and no hand or library or other permanents.

[Nefarias]

Sort of like two players with Platinum Angel and no hand or library or other permanents.

So another question: in that situation, say it's game two and I won game 1. Can I refuse to except that game as a draw and wait for time to expire in order to win the round 1-0?

[BC]

You can try.  A judge probably wouldn't take to kindly to that, though.  Most likely it would be considered stalling.

[Anusien]

You can try.  A judge probably wouldn't take to kindly to that, though.  Most likely it would be considered stalling.

Since the game state is essentially unchanging, I would be very suspicious.  It sounds identical to Stalling.

[LotusHead]

Sort of like two players with Platinum Angel and no hand or library or other permanents.

So another question: in that situation, say it's game two and I won game 1. Can I refuse to except that game as a draw and wait for time to expire in order to win the round 1-0?

Is saying "draw, go" quickly stalling? If I DID win game one (lucky me), and game two somehow ended up with each of us having a Platinum Angel and no other hand/library/permanents, and the opponent offers a draw, saying "nope!, draw, go!" is stalling?

Would it matter if opponent was at 10 life and I at 20 when DoublePlatzOnly gamestate happens?

[Anusien]

Is saying "draw, go" quickly stalling? If I DID win game one (lucky me), and game two somehow ended up with each of us having a Platinum Angel and no other hand/library/permanents, and the opponent offers a draw, saying "nope!, draw, go!" is stalling?

Potentially, yes.  I'd have very serious questions why you're not accepting the draw.

Would it matter if opponent was at 10 life and I at 20 when DoublePlatzOnly gamestate happens?

Potentially, yes.

In this situation I'd take each of you aside and have questions about how the game got to this state, and what your plan is.  I'd be looking for legitimate answers that aren't "I'm going to sit here until time runs out."

[Smmenen]

Would it matter if the players were having a good time?  Or if one player was having a good time?   

[Anusien]

Would it matter if the players were having a good time?  Or if one player was having a good time?   

No.  Why would you think it would?

As a judge, I certainly want the players to have a good time.  You just can't have it at the expense of everyone else in the event.

[Smmenen]

Would it matter if the players were having a good time?  Or if one player was having a good time?   

No.  Why would you think it would?

As a judge, I certainly want the players to have a good time.  You just can't have it at the expense of everyone else in the event.

Why would that be at the expense of other players?  What cost is it to other players in the tournament? 

[Vegeta2711]

Would it matter if the players were having a good time?  Or if one player was having a good time?   

No.  Why would you think it would?

As a judge, I certainly want the players to have a good time.  You just can't have it at the expense of everyone else in the event.

Why would that be at the expense of other players?  What cost is it to other players in the tournament? 

Future match-ups, tiebreakers, length of tournament, amount of judge attention you take away from everyone else, etc. Come on and stop fishing.

[LotusHead]

Future match-ups, tiebreakers, length of tournament, amount of judge attention you take away from everyone else, etc. Come on and stop fishing.

I don't feel that this senario has been satisfactorily dealt with yet.

2 Platz, no other permanents/hand/library. 2nd game of the match.

I'm of the mind that a player never has to conceed if he doesn't want to, and saying "draw, go" isn't stalling. But then again, I'm not a judge, just a player who would like to know the likely ruling is. 

As for how likely the senario is, it's not terribly relevent, but I can imagine Stax matchups possibly ending up that way.

[Wagner]

Future match-ups, tiebreakers, length of tournament, amount of judge attention you take away from everyone else, etc. Come on and stop fishing.

I don't feel that this scenario has been satisfactorily dealt with yet.

2 Platz, no other permanents/hand/library. 2nd game of the match.

I'm of the mind that a player never has to concede if he doesn't want to, and saying "draw, go" isn't stalling. But then again, I'm not a judge, just a player who would like to know the likely ruling is. 

As for how likely the scenario is, it's not terribly relevant, but I can imagine Stax matchups possibly ending up that way.

IF there are no hands/Library/other variables, I believe this should be dealt with as any other infinite loop. You ask both players to name a number an an action and repeat them as long as necessary (in that case that would be attack and no block) until the only choice is for both angels to kill each other and make a draw.

However, if one of the players is at 20 and the other at 4 (or if there are 2 Platz on 1 side), once only one of the two players is at 0, the only possible way to end the infinite loop is to have the Angel attack and be blocked, resulting in the death of one player.

It's similar to reanimating a Worldgorger Dragon to induce a draw when you are in bad board position and the only other target for your animate is Phage, you will have to break the loop and animate Phage at some point, even if that will kill yourself since it's the only way out of the loop.

[Clariax]

First of all, this is very corner-casey.  However, the 2 players definitely cannot sit there saying "Go" over and over.  This would be a loop.  This loop is different from animating a Worldgorger Dragon over and over with some other target (i.e. Phage) in the graveyard.  In that case, you are choosing a target over and over, and given other options must eventually make a different choice.  Since this loop consists of both players taking no actions, neither player is forced to take any action to break the loop.  This would be more similar to Animate Dead with Worldgorger as the only creature to reanimate and one of the players holding a Disenchant.  The player is not forced to play the Disenchant to break the loop.  I would interpret rules 421.4 and 421.6 to say that this situation is a draw. 

421.4. If the loop contains only mandatory actions, the game ends in a draw. (See rule 102.4b.)

421.6. If the loop contains an effect that says "[X] unless [Y]," where [X] and [Y] are each actions, no player can be forced to perform [Y] to break the loop. If no player chooses to perform [Y], the loop will continue as though [X] were mandatory.

[LotusHead]

Thanks! That clears it up for me.