December B&R Changes

[Vegeta2711]

Of course everyone used Gush decks, they erased all prior advances with restrictions.

Care to unpack this? I'm confused what 'prior advances' could beat 4-Gush GAT with consistency that wasn't a dedicated hate deck.

[Akuma]

Care to unpack this? I'm confused what 'prior advances' could beat 4-Gush GAT with consistency that wasn't a dedicated hate deck.

What I wrote is probably a little unclear. I'm not saying that these "prior advances" would consistently beat 4-Gush GAT, I'm saying that they were no longer even there to begin with. We never even got to see them interact.

[LordHomerCat]

Care to unpack this? I'm confused what 'prior advances' could beat 4-Gush GAT with consistency that wasn't a dedicated hate deck.

What I wrote is probably a little unclear. I'm not saying that these "prior advances" would consistently beat 4-Gush GAT, I'm saying that they were no longer even there to begin with. We never even got to see them interact.

What 'prior advances' are you even talking about?  When Gush became legal, it pretty much pushed everything good pre-gush into the second tier.  It's not like we ever saw Meandeck Gifts take on GAT, but so what?  I don't really understand what you're complaining about here.

[JACO]

Care to unpack this? I'm confused what 'prior advances' could beat 4-Gush GAT with consistency that wasn't a dedicated hate deck.

What I wrote is probably a little unclear. I'm not saying that these "prior advances" would consistently beat 4-Gush GAT, I'm saying that they were no longer even there to begin with. We never even got to see them interact.

What 'prior advances' are you even talking about?  When Gush became legal, it pretty much pushed everything good pre-gush into the second tier.  It's not like we ever saw Meandeck Gifts take on GAT, but so what?  I don't really understand what you're complaining about here.

Gio's point is that Gush-Bond decks became the defacto standard draw engine in an environment where many other previously strong strategies had been neutered by restriction.

For example, what kind of metagame would we have if say, Merchant Scroll were restricted, but all of the following cards were unrestricted?
Brainstorm
Ponder
Flash
Gifts Ungiven
Trinisphere
Burning Wish
Entomb
Frantic Search
Grim Monolith
Gush

I think you would actually have a lot more deckbuilding options and strategies. You would see many of the same card advantage shells (Gush, Gifts, etc.), but you already keep seeing other shells of 'reduced' power being utilized in a number of decks anything (Thirst for Knowledge, Accumulated Knowledge, Dark Confidant, etc.). Decks like GroATog and Gush-based Tyrant Oath could prey on stuff like Flash, Control Slaver, and TPS. TPS could pray on Drain and Workshop decks. Workshop decks could help combat GroATog and other decks who run very light manabases and are ill equipped to deal with heavy mana denial strategies. Control Slaver could prey on Workshop. Goblins can combat Flash, Workshop, and Fish. 6RedBlast Painter could help deal with GrowATog, Oath, Flash, and more. This doesn't even take into account strategies based on new cards (Tezzeret, for example) and yet to be printed cards that can otherwise help define a metagame.

That is Gio's point. Like him, I would like to see an environment where the players adapt to the metagame (along with printing of new cards), and subsequently change the metagame with their deckbuilding decisions, instead of relying on the DCI to restrict cards or strategies into oblivion.

[LotusHead]

For example, what kind of metagame would we have if say, Merchant Scroll were restricted, but all of the following cards were unrestricted?
Brainstorm
Ponder
Flash
Gifts Ungiven
Trinisphere
Burning Wish
Entomb
Frantic Search
Grim Monolith
Gush

That would be bliss!
I actually don't have a problem with Brainstorm being restricted, it really was that good of a card, I just assumed it would be protected like Shops Drains and Rituals.

[LordHomerCat]

For example, what kind of metagame would we have if say, Merchant Scroll were restricted, but all of the following cards were unrestricted?
Brainstorm
Ponder
Flash
Gifts Ungiven
Trinisphere
Burning Wish
Entomb
Frantic Search
Grim Monolith
Gush

Just because I love nitpicking, if those cards were legal I would be extremely surprised if either GAT or Doomsday (the Gush one) were not the best deck.  3Sphere is the only other card on that list that would even matter, and if those cards were legal Thirst and AK and all the random junk we play with now would still not be good enough because the Gush engine would still be dominant.  -3 Merchant scroll hurts for sure, but remember that we weren't even running things like Imperial Seal and stuff.

[bluemage55]

Just because I love nitpicking, if those cards were legal I would be extremely surprised if either GAT or Doomsday (the Gush one) were not the best deck.  3Sphere is the only other card on that list that would even matter, and if those cards were legal Thirst and AK and all the random junk we play with now would still not be good enough because the Gush engine would still be dominant.  -3 Merchant scroll hurts for sure, but remember that we weren't even running things like Imperial Seal and stuff.

While it's a distinct possibility that a Scroll-less Gush engine would still be a powerhouse, I don't think it's an automatic given that it would be utterly dominant.  Chaining multiple Gushes together with Scrolls as well as being able to find Gush reliably (to, say, protect your fragile manabase) were both key factors resulting in the Gush era.

[Akuma]

I agree completely with everything JACO posted, that is what I was trying to say.

For example, with JACO's proposed restriction (Merchant Scroll) and unrestrictions, things would be a hell of a lot more interesting. Gush would continue to do well, sure, but the metagame would be able to adapt. We can't adapt if we have no tools available.

...if those cards were legal Thirst and AK and all the random junk we play with now would still not be good enough because the Gush engine would still be dominant.

This is always the case in Vintage, if the better cards are not legal, we use the next best option. There is always a best option.

[Qube]

From these posts on the matter, I get the impression that there really should be launched a profound discussion not only about what cards should be restricted, but rather about what philosophy wewant to follow when restricting. I say philosophy because it has become apparent that there are no specific "numbers" (as it has been tried) to find out when a card has to be restricted. The community should elaborate their ideas, and talk to the dci as well. I'm sure if were not starting with specific cards to unrestrict, we should talk about the general idea. It will be easier to find a consensus that way.