Flavors of fish

[the boogie man]

I love fish. ever since the archetype included standstill and red, I have been playing this deck on and off. Now, with everyone buzzing about restrictions and tezzeret, fish is a hotly debated subject. I would love to see fish do well, so I decided to start a thread on the best options for fish. This is by no means a primer or anything of the sort, I just want to see what we can do as far as fish innovations go.

The first thing is the colors. Every color has something for fish, and there are many  versions of the deck. BUG fish seems to be doing particularly well, but that doesn't make other options inferior.

Blue: 95% of fish decks run blue, as it houses some of the most powerful cards in the format. I'm assuming I don't have to tell you why blue is good. There are a couple options as far as cards go. Cursecatcher is one of the best blue one-drops ever printed. Coupled with mana denial, this card is often pretty good. There is always stifle, which is an indispensable tool, doubling as mana denial and occasionally time walks, especially on oath and stuff. Also helps in the storm matchup, stopping tendrils as its cast.

Spellstutter sprite is another interesting option. A counterspell and a creature wrapped in one? awesome card advantage. definately worthwhile if a couple steps are taken. Bitterblossom and mutavault seem like really good options, especially in a standtill-based build.  a 1/1 seems awful slow, but it's a smaller part of a larger whole.

daze is often brought up as well. This card shines early game, but it quickly becomes useless as the game progresses, unless you are hitting them hard with the mana denial. The bouncing of the land also sets you back a turn, and since you will generally be playing this on your opponents turn, it is really hard to abuse the land bounce like gush.

As far as draw engines: curiosity is an option, albeit an outdated one, which requires a creature to work. Easy to get 2-for-1ed, too. Then there is the ninja. a blue creature that bounces one of your creatures back to hand and has no evasion? When coupled with the sprite, though, this disadvantage becomes huge, essentially recycling counterspells. pops out under standstill, too.

There are also more questionable choices, such as cold-eyed selkie and augury adept. While I don't see either as being fantastic (mostly because of the cc), they could prove useful. I dislike how adept does not have any kind of evasion, making her less usefull when it counts. Selkie seems pretty good, especially when combined with noble hierarch.

Other than force of will, the blue disruption suite is still under revision as well. It seems that negate is pretty good, but If you don't run thoughtseize or a lot of swords (or goyf), the creatures could be an issue. Mana Leak is another option which catches everything, but loses effectiveness as the game goes on.

Spell snare is another option that has been catching my eye. For 1 mana, you counter a lot of back-breaking spells. Oath, painter, drain, time vault, goyf, ak, confidant, and many others. I wonder why this card sees so little play.

With so many options and game-winning spells, It's pretty obvious why blue is usually in a fish deck. From here on, though, I am going to explore the other colors.

Black: The second most common color in fish builds. Duress is stellar in these types of decks, allowing for precise disruption on the cheap. Confidant is also really common, racking up huge card advantage over the course of a few turns, as well as doubling as a threat.

Bitterblossom is an option that doesn't seem to be too well explored. With goyf around, it makes sense. But what if the fish deck did not run green? Bitterblossom seems like the next best threat. It is much harder to remove than a single creature, and all of the faeries have evasion. As a cool side effect, bitterblossom plays very nicely with ninja of the deep hours and spellstutter sprite. As a not cool side effect, thoughtseize and confidant get worse with this in the deck.

There are also good sideboard  options, such as extirpate, leyline, jailer, more duress effects, edict, and whatever else you might want to run. Against control decks, perhaps cutpurse is an option. It is basically an ancestral every time it connects. There is also tombstalker, but flipping that with confidant would be a big deal.

Green has just recently been pushed to the forefront of the fish scene, mostly due to the printing of a monster in tarmogoyf. Huge threat for minimal cost. Definately one of the most efficient creatures ever printed. Trygon predator id also extremely efficient, blowing away permanents every turn, and flying. he also has 3 toughness, which is a boon in a world of confidants, magus, and 2/2 Zombie tokens.

Noble hierarch is another interesting option. not only does it tap for multiple colors of mana, it boosts any of your creatures attacking alone. I believe that multiples stack as well. Really good with cold-eye selkie, turning it into a huge threat that is also unblockable.

Green also has a wealth of sideboard options, including wheel of the sun and moon, oxidize, krosan grip, deglamer, and others. Life from the loam could also be included, pushing strip effects into the mid-late game. With this, perhaps terravore could provide a retardedly large clock, all things considered. The double green seems like it would be an issue, though. Overall a very solid choice for a color.

Red was one of the original colors in fish, and has since slowly dissipated slowly. Some fish builds do splash red for things such as reb, though. As for a main-deck color, there are some really good includes, such as gorilla shaman. He is good against timevault, which is stupendously popular. he is also good paired with chalice, because he picks up any artifacts that may have been played prior. Also good against stax decks, avoiding thorn of amethyst and taking out sphere effects.

Magus of the moon seems good, but may prove to be too difficult to include main. Fire/ice is another option, and a cool one at that. It takes out guys, sometimes for a 2-for-1. It can also tap down a permanent, whether it be a land to cut off drain mana, or a blocker to swing for lethal. Reb is also a powerhouse right now.

White become a very popular color in fish very early on. Meddling mage is a strong card, cutting of lines of play to secure a winning position, or cutting off a critical threat. I'd imagine dropping a mm on goyf against on opposing fish player would be key.

Swords to plowshares is another really good card, remove a problem creature from the game for w. Perhaps path to exile? Kataki is a key sideboard card, falling nicely into the curve and making life difficult for stax players. Jotun grunt would be the meat of choice in a w fish build, doubling as graveyard disruption. It seems that the grave-disruption is kind of slow, and the longevity of the grunt decreases the earlier you play him, creating unique deckbuilding issues.

Ethersworn cannonist is also a very interesting card. As far as I know, not too many people maindeck this card, and for good reason. Without a deck set up to abuse this card, you could really put yourself in a hole. Counterwars no longer exist, and duress takes up your entire turn. Against storm, though, these seem fantastic.

There are also other choices depending on your choice of colors. Gaddock teeg, IF you are playing w&g, cuts of force and a bunch of spells you don't play. He is legendary though, which is always a downer. Good against storm, though, especially in non-blue fish decks. Another creature from the wg category is the new knight of the reliquary. Almost as jacked as terravore, but without trample. In exchange, you can fetch a land from your deck. Hello strip mine.

bw Gives you access to tidehallow sculler, a duress on legs that you can play through cannonist. Shares the same weakness to artifact destruction, though. In turn, you get a really good bear. bw also gives you access to seek from hide/seek, which seems to be the ball-breaking side of the card.

There is also the everlasting chalice vs. rod discussions. as far as I can tell, rod is the easy choice, cutting off timevault and all moxen, regardless of whether or not this came into play first, but I am very open to suggestion.

I know I must be missing stuff, but This is what I have for the moment. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated, as well as your input on what combination work best together. I want this to be open to all types of fish decks, dotd included, and including version without blue. Soon, I hope there can be a consolidated bit of information for all fish players out there.

[zeus-online]

You forgot about æther vial which can work quite well, and i could imagine vial+canonist to be near unbeatable.

Here's the list we use in our gauntlet: (We use BUG fish aswell)

Mana: (23)
6 Fetch
3 Tundra
3 Underground sea
2 Island
1 Plains
5 Strips
1 Lotus
1 Sapphire
1 Jet
1 Pearl

Creatures: (18)
3 Savannah lions
2 Hound of konda
4 Dark confidant
4 Æthersworn Canonist
2 Ninja of the deep hours
3 Aven mindcensor

Disruption: (12)
4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Null rod

Other: (7)
1 Ancestral recall
1 Time walk
1 Mystical tutor
1 Demonic consultation
1 Echoing truth
2 Swords to plowshares


A couple of notes:
You note daze as weak later on, yeah that's true but it helps you resolve cards that will make "later" not matter...What's the opponent realisticly gonna do against a board of null rod, canonist and mindcensor? This deck is kinda like stax on legs, with counter back-up.

Ponder & Brainstorm:
We played with them for a while, but cut them for ninja's and haven't looked back...Ponder and brainstorm was just kinda slow and got in the way when you where using your mana for threats. Every turn matters, every mana matters.

Demonic consultation:
This probably looks odd, but with so many good 4 of's in the deck it's actually rather good and don't be afraid to say a one of.

Mystical tutor:
Vampiric is straight up better, so why run mystical? Well we're a bit low on blue cards...and the only other solution would be cursecatcher instead of lions/hound. We haven't gotten around to testing cursecatcher's yet.

No stifle's:
We really didn't like this card, although we ofcourse realize that it's an option...The thing is that keeping U up is rather annoying, and works against the general strategy of pumping threats out.

Duress effects:
We tried it instead of lions and hounds, but frankly they where just worse...This deck really needs a clock while rod, canonist and mindcensor buys time to finish the game or further burrow the opponent in nasty cards. Tidehallow sculler has not been tested though...It's build-in synergi with canonist makes it an option that warrant's testing though.

Meddling mage:
Our experience is that it's just plain worse then canonist, and it's spot has been taken by said card. It's too hit and miss. On a positive note though: Once you have canonist, mindcensor or rod down, a meddling mage could seal the deal by naming whatever bounce/removal the opponent is most likely to have.

Kataki: Dosn't work too well in the deck due to canonist and null rod...ties your mana down, but as a sideboard card it could be great! We're using seal of removal for the workshop match-up though, since it works against oath aswell...It's a meta thing i guess.

Canonist:
This card has been GREAT, most decks win by chaining a great deal of spells together...Well that's just not possible against the canonist, looking for an answer to it usually takes about 4 turns or so and is likely to meet a counter since it's rare that they have counter back-up (it needs to be an artifact). One thing to remember is to stop playing cards since that opens up for the opponents ability to play spells...Instead use the ninja's and mindcensors to further complicate things....Null rod is also a fine play since it's an artifact. There's one flipside of this card though: Against control it can lock you up for good...It's quite easy to avoid though...often the correct play is to play him as the last threat. That way you have maybe 4-6 power on the board and the opponent most likely needs to get rid of the canonist. Another tip against drains where you have a canonist on the table is to cast mindcensor during their first mainphase (you can obv. use it in response to tutors and fetches) if they drain it, they will most likely burn during their second mainphase since they can't play any more nonartifact spells.

We've also been thinking about upping the amount of moxen, they boost this deck quite a bit, allowing for turn 1 confidants, canonist's and null rod's and often with counter back-up thanks to daze

Well thats about it i think.

/Zeus

[the boogie man]

Awesome, I haven't seen a list like that in a long time.I thought about vial, but Since Rod is so much better than chalice, I just ignored it. Do you guys think that chalice is good enough to run maindeck over rod? and if so, is vial a viable strategy?

I really like consultation in fish, I've been running it in my bug fish builds, as well as dawn of the dead and pretty much any other deck I can make the excuse to run it in.

I really like ninja, and it seems exceptionally good in this deck. With all the 1 mana 2 power guys, it makes a lot of sense.

No duress effects kind of freak me out. I would want to find at least a couple (2-3) spots for thoughtseize. you only have to resolve one, and that is pretty gamechanging. Tidehallow sculler, though, could fit in that spot as well. maybe -1 lion, -1 minscensor. That would just make me feel better.

I'm wondering if daze is actually just better in this deck than it is in bug fish. You seem to run a lot more cheaper, efficient threats. bug probably doesn't need to tap out as much, which explains perhaps why you don't like stifle.

By the way, what does your bug fish look like? Is it the generic list floating about, with trygon and such? How do you feel about cursecatcher? I wonder if ninja would be good in that deck. Without the 2 power one drops, though, it seems doubtful.

[nineisnoone]

Just a straight list might be easier to get the information from.
Brackets are if they are multi-colored cards.

Blue:
Force of Will
Cursecatcher
Stifle
[Meddling Mage]
[trygon Predator]

Black:
Dark Confidant
Duress
Thoughtseize
Dark Ritual
Phyrexian Negator
Bitterblossom
Cruel Edict
Darkblast
[Hide/Seek]
[Tidehollow Sculler]

White:
Children of Korlis
Ethersworn Cannonist
Supression Field
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Kataki's War Wage
Jotun Grunt
Glowrider
Aven Mindsensor
[Tidehollow Sculler]
[Medding Mage]
[Hide/Seek]
[Gaddock Teeg]
[Wild Nacatl]

Red:
Gorilla Shaman
Goblin Welder
Grim Lavamancer
Moog Fanatic
Flame Jab
Ignot Chewer
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
Pyrostatic Pillar
Vexing Shusher
Simian Spirit Guide
Dead/Gone
[Tin-Street Hooligan]
[Wild Nacatl]

Green:
Tarmogoyf
Elvish Scrapper (I like it at least)
Viridian Zealot
Vexing Shusher
Survival of the Fittest
Elvish Spirit Guide
[Wild Nacatl]
[Gaddock Teeg]
[Tin-Street Hooligan]
[trygon Predator]

Artifacts:
Chalice of the Void
Aether Vial
Null Rod
Skullclamp

Note:  I don't list Magus of the Moon or Standstill, partly because I'm not a big fan.  But additionally because they sort of require a deck to be built to them or at least with serious consideration to them.

My assessment goes:
Blue:  Runs the best disruption in FoW and has the best to complement for mana denial with Cursecatcher and Stifle.
- The Force of Will and mana denial color
White: Runs the best anti-storm and anti-large creature cards.  Also has some assorted cards that are handy.
- The anti-storm color.
Green:  Runs the best aggressive creatures.
- The aggressive color.
Red: Runs the best anti-artifact, anti-blue cards, and the best anti-storm card in Pillar.   Also has some creature control capacity.
- The hate color
Black: Runs the best disruption in general due to consistency and parity.  Also provides you with mana acceleration, card draw, some creature aggression, and has some creature control capacity.  Depending on your deck that tutors may be useful.
- Best overall color.

3x Chalice works decently in any variety just for Chalice @0.  I don't see why you claim that Chalice and Rod conflict with each other.  You could say they are redundant (I feel so), but they don't conflict with each other.
Null Rod is currently the default choice unless you have some other means of dealing with Time Vault.
Skullclamp is a good card, but isn't playable with Rod, isn't necessary with Dark Confidant, and is inferior to Survival of the Fittest with Squee, Goblin Naboo.

[the boogie man]

I really don't think that chalice and rod conflict, I think that vial and rod conflict. I'm not sure what vial would be put in where it would be better than rod, but that is a whole new topic. And I think that standstill should most definitely have a spot on the list, as that was the first "draw engine" fish had. besides curiosity.

It also isn't just about lists. Not to say I am not very appreciative of your time spent compiling the list, and the explanation, but I think that the combination of cards is far more important than a list.
Synergy seems to be one of the biggest assets fish decks have. Also, white also has dome creatures ready for the beatdown, apparent in zeus' list above. I also think that ninja of the deep belongs on that blue list.

@ zeus-online: Did you ever miss the grunt? I find your list pretty interesting, and I fully agree on not running him.

How does everyone feel about werebear and wild mongoose? Some recent lists have put them to good use, so perhaps they are worth bringing up. Probably not worth the space, but they are an option.

[nineisnoone]

also the everlasting chalice vs. rod discussions. as far as I can tell, rod is the easy choice, cutting off timevault and all moxen, regardless of whether or not this came into play first, but I am very open to suggestion.

Typo?

I was under the impression that the thread was more for a brainstorming session then refining particular decklists.  That's why I made the list.  It's just easier to get to the crux of what your first post explains. 

My favorite iterations of Fish are so far my B/W list and my RGW list:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37397.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37275.0

I do want to do something with U, but I'm not sure it would go beyond the traditional BUG and BUW decks. 

I've seen Wearbear in a Drain + Null Rod + Thirst deck.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37312.0
I think it's pretty good and a pretty insightful use of Werebear.

Mongoose is a consideration.  I would think Nacatl would be better due to it's ease in getting up to a 3/3.  I would want something to accelerate to Threhold to run Mongoose though, but something better than the legacy staples (forget what they were). 

[Harlequin]

I think nineisnoone has a great idea.  But I think he missed some really critcal cards (as I'm sure I did as well, no one is perfect).  And I'm not sure I really agree with some of his commentary.

[ ] = brackets signify that you must run another color
~ = This card is somewhat narrow for the maindeck but frequently makes an appearence in the Sideboard.  Clearly running them maindeck is an option, especailly if you are metagaming against an architype.   

Blue :
Force
Stifle
Daze
Recall/Timewalk
Cursecatcher
Ninja
E-truth
Spell Stutterer
Trinket Mage
Standstill
[Meddling Mage]
[trygon Preditor]
~ E-Flux
~ Hurkyls
~ Extract

Black :
Dark Confidant
Duress/Sieze
Extirpate
Cabal Therepy
Edict (diabolic, cruel, chainers)
DT/Vamp/Consultation
Dark Ritual
Negator
Hypnotic Spector
Raven's Crime
Bitter Blossom
[Hide/Seek]
[Tidehollow Sculler]
[Kederekt Parasite]
~ Planar Portal
~ Withered Wretch
~ Darkblast

White :
Ethersworn Cannonist
Swords/Path
Aven Mindsensor
Jotun Grunt
Glowrider
Orim's Chant
Cat's and Dogs (Lions, Issamaru, Court Homunculus)
[Meddling Mage]
[Tidehollow Sculler]
[Hide/Seek]
[Gaddock Teeg]
~ Kataki
~ Children of Korlis
~ Seal of Cleansing
~ Ponies (ronim unicorn/kami of A-Law)
~ Wheel of Sun and Moon
~ Hannah's Custody

Red :
Magus of the Moon
Gorilla Shaman
REB/Pyro
Mog Fanatic
Lightning Bolt
Vexing Shusher
Flame Jab
Sting Scourger
SSG
Grim Lavamancer
Goblin Welder
[Tinstreet Hooligan]
[Hide/Seek]
~ Pyrostatic Pillars
~ Ingot Chewer
~ Viashino Heratic
~ [Artifact Mutation]

Green :
Tarmogoyf
Vexing Shusher
ESG
Root Maze
Veridian Zealot
Eternal Witness
[trygon Preditor]
[Gaddock Teeg]
[Tinstreet Hooligan]
~ Seal of Primorida
~ Krosan Grip
~ Oxidize

Artifacts :
Null Rod
Chalice of the Void
Thorn of Amethyst
AEther Vial
Skullclamp
Engineered Explosives
Pithing Needle
Crucible of Worlds
~ Jitte
~ Tormod's Crypt/Relic


While I agree that certain cards restrict your deck, I wouldn't put Magus of the Moon or Standstill in either of those catagories.  While you certainly consider there role when constructing your deck, they typically still can lend themselves well to many configurations of decks.  Below are cards that I think truely require certain factors for deck construction, and really become the focus of your deck as whole.

Deck Focusing Cards:
- Supression Field
- Auriok Salvagers
- Master of Etherium
- Zombie Infestation
- Bitter Ordeal
- Phyrexian Dreadnaught
- Chrome Mox
- ... Goblins as a deck
X - Mishrah's Workshop

A few notable Exclusions:
Most 'Beaters' were excluded.  I don't particularly like non-disruptive beaters.  There were a few notable acceptions: Tarmogoyf, and Negator for being monsterous.  And I did include a section for "Cats and Dogs" in white because white has a certainly notable array of 2/x beaters for 1.  I guess my point is I wouldn't start my deck with beaters.  If I feel like I need a better clock, or that I need more dudes to hold equipment, etc then I know that basically every color has some sort of efficant 1-drop to take advantage of (save blue, although Flying Man is the hotsauce).

[the boogie man]

cursecatcher is a one drop.

and @ nineisnoone: I just meant most fish builds don't run both. It is totally acceptable to run both if you wanted to. And I don't mean to refine a particular list at all.

I just didn't agree with some of the explanations. For example, white is the anti-storm color, which is most definately true. but if you play white in a list with no cannonist, with jotan grunt as swords perhaps, then white is an anti-creature, anti-graveyard, beater color. I meant about how cards interact with other cards in certain color combinations, not so much looking at the certain cards in a vacuum.

What do you guys think about trying to break spellstutter sprite? I'm not sure, but fish seems like the deck to do it with. I am currently working on a ruw fish deck. the sprite seems decent, but there are a lot of other options. I'm trying it with cannonist and standstill and aether vial, with some ninja of the deep hours.

the vial is there to abuse standstill and cannonist, as well as facilitate beatings and uncounterable counterspells in the form of the sprite. Mox monkey covers my rear from timevault and moxes that slip by chalice, and I'm hoping that that will be a good enough package because I don't run null rod. Ninja helps reuse the sprite as well. I also threw in a couple of mutavault, because they are good with sprite and standstill.

Is vendilion clique playable? I really like it, but can help but feel like I misplay it all the time. Does anyone play with them, and have any pointers?

[Sean Ryan]

This is posted in the open forum with its own thread, but it is an attempt to combine Fish and Faeries.

I have had an affinity for Fish strategies for many years and with Tezz on top Fish is ready to make a splash.  I had been playing the BUG version over UW which always felt weaker and found it to have the best match against Drains and Rituals, but would be unable to beat the remaining tier two strategies that fill the first few rounds.  So I've been thinking how to improve my bad match ups while still retaining the decks strengths against Drains and Storm combo.  I think the answer may be to borrow a page from the Faeries play book.

Interestingly enough I got here by trying to splash white to fight the second tier decks. But trying to add a fourth color was just too much strain on the mana base. The deck also needed the blue dorks to keep enough cards for Force and a way to deal with a resolved colossus besides the lone echoing truth.  Cursecatcher always felt suboptimal but I wanted another blue creature that disrupts which got me thinking about the Fae.  I realized I could accomplish these goals with the Faeries and Edict as a replacement for StP.  While I know Edict is not StP, I strongly believe Fish needs an answer to an all-in Tinker Colossus.

The Faeries package gives you Sprite, Clique, and Bitterblossom.  Cards I cut form the standard BUG Fish deck are: Cursecatcher, Negate, and Trygon Predator.   

If I take nothing else from this experiment it's that Clique is amazing and I would throw him in every Fish deck I play from now on regardless of the other faerie cards.


Fish meets Faeries

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Confidant
4 Goyf
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Rod
4 Duress
3 Bitterblossom
3 Diabolic Edict
4 FoW
3 Stifle/Daze???
3 Recall/Walk/Brainstorm

22 Mana Sources
4 MoxLotus
5 Strip/Waste
3 Sea
2 Trop
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
5 Fetch

SB
6 Ichorid Hate
4 Krosan Grip
3 Jitte
2 open slots


By making these changes I improve my matches against the 2nd tier while giving up very little against Drains and Rituals.  My mirror match and the Workshop match improve significantly.  Bitterblossom is an absolute house here.  With both KGrip and Edict my Oath match is also improved.  I need to play more games against Tezz and TPS to see if I'm giving up too much but I doubt it as the deck retains all of it's central cards while giving up things that work on the edges in these match ups.

Another option is to cut the Edicts and a stifle/daze for Bounce, Sowers, and a Tutor as an answer to Colossus that raises the blue count.

This concept is still in its infancy but is looks promising.  Your input is appreciated.
.
Thanks
Sean   

[nineisnoone]

As far as Stifle/Daze go, I've always felt the threat of either card is more important than the actual usage of it.  So I would think a mix of the two (maybe 2/1 Stifle/Daze or something) might be optimal. At the moment you play one, you force the opponent to respect it.  But you avoid the unfortunate side effect of drawing it when it is not useful.  Stifle I would prefer, just because it's effect is not conditional like Daze is. 

How frequently do you Spellstutter for 2?  It just seems a bit weak to Stutter at 1.  You only have 9 other so it doesn't seem like it would be that consistent to me.  Oona's Prowler?  3 power for 2 isn't bad.  I have no experience with it so I can't say if the opponent would discard for it or not.  But getting your Faerie count to 13 would get you to more to a point where you would Stutter for at least 2.

I would also consider cutting a Waste for a Mutavault.  It's a great "free" threat once you have established your Spellstutter.  And once you get to 3 mana, they have to respect your Stutter for 2.  Plus, I usually cut the 4th Wasteland anyways.

[nineisnoone]

I think nineisnoone has a great idea.  But I think he missed some really critcal cards (as I'm sure I did as well, no one is perfect).  And I'm not sure I really agree with some of his commentary.

Good additions to the list.  Certainly commentary on generalizations is going to have divergent opinions.  I just sort of threw it out there.  I do feel thought that Magus and Standstill are as restrictive as any of those other cards you mentioned, but certainly they see enough play that they are thought of as staples within the same rough archetype area.

I also feel that Nactl deserves to be an exempt attacker only card.  It can be a consistent 3/3 on turn 1 and in builds where I've ran him has had moments where he is preferred over Tarmogoyf.

Also curious on your assessment of Wheel of Sun and Moon.  Seems like a holder over from the Flash days, or does it have more applications than I am thinking?

Runed Halo could probably make the list, though I also have no experience with that card.

[zeus-online]

Awesome, I haven't seen a list like that in a long time.I thought about vial, but Since Rod is so much better than chalice, I just ignored it. Do you guys think that chalice is good enough to run maindeck over rod? and if so, is vial a viable strategy?

I absolutely think chalice is good enough, but i find it more risking...I'd use it with a few gorilla shamans or something like that...URBana style. Chalice seems to allow for more powerfull openings, but if you don't get the chalice in your opening grip it might never do anything.

I really like consultation in fish, I've been running it in my bug fish builds, as well as dawn of the dead and pretty much any other deck I can make the excuse to run it in.

It's awesome, the best tutor for a fish deck...By far. Demonic tutor is usually like giving the opponent a time walk. Mystical is rather weak and i only use it if i need blue cards for FoW.

I really like ninja, and it seems exceptionally good in this deck. With all the 1 mana 2 power guys, it makes a lot of sense.

He's really, really good...Dark confidant is better, but 4 card-drawers just wasn't enough. You really need that 1 extra card against drains. (Combo is usually a bye, atleast before board)

No duress effects kind of freak me out. I would want to find at least a couple (2-3) spots for thoughtseize. you only have to resolve one, and that is pretty gamechanging. Tidehallow sculler, though, could fit in that spot as well. maybe -1 lion, -1 minscensor. That would just make me feel better.

You could try that, but it didn't work out for us. Duress effects kinda sucks with the canonist in play, and this deck is almost as much a canonist deck as a null rod deck. Tidehallow is definetly an option though as it dosn't get in the way of the canonist.
I'm just not sure what to cut for them...Mindcensor has proven pretty good and makes the other cards so hard to answer, and the lions and hounds are necessary for the deck to functiion.

I'm wondering if daze is actually just better in this deck than it is in bug fish. You seem to run a lot more cheaper, efficient threats. bug probably doesn't need to tap out as much, which explains perhaps why you don't like stifle.

Daze has been very strong, it really helps to resolve your cards in the early game and often acts as a one-sided sphere later on...If you get a lucky mana-denial draw it will obviously be even stronger. It would get stronger by playing more moxen though.

By the way, what does your bug fish look like? Is it the generic list floating about, with trygon and such? How do you feel about cursecatcher? I wonder if ninja would be good in that deck. Without the 2 power one drops, though, it seems doubtful.

Just a standard BUG fish deck.
I like cursecatcher fine in BUG fish, but in U/W i might just still want lion or hound instead, BUG fish got tarmogoyf which kills pretty fast compared to anything in this list so this list needs beaters. Saccing the cursecatcher might also make ninja go off-line.
The best thing about adding cursecatcher would be more blue cards for FoW imo (Which is actually needed)

I really don't think that chalice and rod conflict, I think that vial and rod conflict. I'm not sure what vial would be put in where it would be better than rod, but that is a whole new topic. And I think that standstill should most definitely have a spot on the list, as that was the first "draw engine" fish had. besides curiosity.

I'd love to see a fish deck with standstill, æther vial, chalice and canonist. All of these cards seems to have nice synergies...maybe even throw some man-lands in the mix.

@ zeus-online: Did you ever miss the grunt? I find your list pretty interesting, and I fully agree on not running him.

Never against drains or combo (Mono blue is an exception though, grunt would be awesome in that match-up). Against shop-aggro or other fish decks they're likely better then the other creatures.

I'm mostly just the brains behind the deck, it's our local fish dude who plays it, so some of the questions would be better answered by him. We really need to try out the sculler and cursecatcher though.

I had this crazy thought yesterday, about a fish deck with Thoughtcast, academy and many other non-fish-like-cards since null rod and the canonist are both artifact the affinity cards might actually work. Never got around to testing it though.

/Zeus

[Troy_Costisick]

the vial is there to abuse standstill and cannonist, as well as facilitate beatings and uncounterable counterspells in the form of the sprite. Mox monkey covers my rear from timevault and moxes that slip by chalice, and I'm hoping that that will be a good enough package because I don't run null rod.

If you aren't running Null Rods, then I might suggest 4 Pithing Needles in the SB.  They'll hit everything from Ichorid to Tez to Slaver.  They aren't much help vs. Oath, but they're still a solid card IMHO.

Peace,

-Troy

[the boogie man]

Here is the decklist I've been toying with for a couple days. It started when I started to realize that I don't really like cannonist any time I'm not playing against certain decks, but it was such a strong ability. I just really didn't like how duress started to suck when cannonist was out. Then I remembered aether vial. Aether vial also goes great with standstill. Since I wasn't running black, I really needed more draw spells. Here is the rough decklist, then I'll toss up explanations:

4 spellstutter
4 cannonist
3 gorilla shaman
2 vendilion clique
2 ninja of the deep
2 waterfront bouncer

4 force of will
4 aether vial
3 chalice
2 daze
1 stifle

3 standstill
1 brainstorm
1 ancestral
1 time walk


4 flooded strand
3 tundra
3 volcanic
3 waste
2 mutavault
2 island
1 polluted delta
1 strip mine

1 lotus
3 mox

Some of the explanations can be found in my above post.

There are not too many 1-drops in my deck, but I only run 2 ninjas, which seems ok. the ninjas also have really good synergy with the sprites and the clique, which I am trying out. I can't really test against anyone else, but Goldfishing and stuff isn't terrible.

The aether vial avoids cannonist (multiple ways) and standstill, allowing you to pump threats out while pressing an advantage. mutavault also avoids both and supplies a threat, and another faerie with sprite.

I really like sprite in this build, because it is really good with many of the other cards in the deck.

With a cannonist out, if they play something, sprite is the last spell either of us play, hopefully countering their card and supplying me with a threat. With aether vial, it is a uncounterable counter. when standstill is broken, these guys are cool backup counterspells, especially if you have multiples.

There are also a couple of ninja and bouncers, both of which are able to reuse spellstutter and clique, which seems cool. I took nineisnoone's idea about the 3 chalice, and it works great. I usually get one early, and I don't usually keep drawing them when I don't need them. They aren't terrible mid-game, with back-up from the mox monkey.

[Guli]

I like the thread, I like the people in posting in this thread and I also like the comments and writing in general. Most of it is nothing new to me however it does give me an excellent oversight and structure so I can put things I know together. Nice job!

Going from my own experience the list zeus-online posted looks very promising. It is always hard to find a good creature configuration. We have a lot of options these days and that means we have to make choices. Too many choices can be a pain in the ass. Zeus got Confidant as fuel, to keep going. Confidant is also a major threat against control. As much as canonist is a threat against storm and combo in general. The ROD fills in the gabs very nicely. A strong strong control card especially now. Rod+Canonist is tech in my eyes. You make the connection.

There is quite some tutoring going on in the meta. Tinker is a route that must be addressed. If it was just to stop Tinker I wouldn't use Aven M. But he does more. Between all these powerful cards I like the wasteland/Cat combination. It is really oldskool but it still works. Turn one land/cat. Next turn you can rod or wasteland. I like the build but I do have some critics.

The blue count is on the low side making Force a tight choice. I can't give more comment on this one, I can't see a solution on the spot. You could add more blue maybe.
You have 61 cards. Your mana is 24 sources. I took the liberty to keep it that way and remove demonic consultation. It is a personal choice though.


Chalice is a card that can be strong even if you top deck it. The strongest play is chalice@1. Moxes can be dealt with with shaman/rod/hate... Stopping rituals/recal-brain-ponder/dures-seize/welder-other 1 drops/stifle/stp/.... long long list

Let me share something. Vexing Shusher is a walking Vial when you play drain.dec. Vexing + Chalice has serious potential if you ask me. Hell you can even trow in some vials if you like but I prefer to play Null Rod right now. I did promote vial for a long time and I still do, it is a great alternative but it plays differently. With Vexing and chalice you don't really need vial you need another lock control piece like RoD. I didn't have a lot of time on my hands so I am not even close to a list. But my starting pile is:

4x Vexing Shuser
4x Chalice of the void
4x Null Rod

Keep this thread going.

Cheers

[the boogie man]

Vexing shusher is great, but he takes g or r mana to use, something I don't have a lot of.shusher also has an awkward cc. he is absolute house against control, though.

Chalice @ 1 is an option in the standstill build, it only cuts off 10 cards, 3 of which can still be vialed in.

@zeus: Woud you consider dropping the swords for waterfront bouncer? that would up your blue count, It won't interfere with your 1 drop slot, and it is reusable utility. You might have to make the mystical vamp, but vamp is great anyway. I have also thought about the tidehallow sculler. what if you did something like -1 daze, -1 cannonist (which is not great in multiples). that way you could have a couple of duress creatures that were still 2/2 attackers, and they avoid cannonist.

if you are really worried about the blue count, why not cut 1 lion, 1 daze, and 1 mindscensor for like 3 cursecatcher. they attack, are blue, are awesome with rod, activate ninja, diversify your 1-drop slot, and all for u.

[Guli]

Vexing shusher is great, but he takes g or r mana to use, something I don't have a lot of.shusher also has an awkward cc. he is absolute house against control, though.

I wasn't suggesting Shusher in any of the posted lists. The idea is to maximize chalice and never be scared to set it at the number you want. Vexing gives you that ability. And Null Rod makes sure you can potentially skip Chalice@0 and go straight for Chal@1.

[zeus-online]

Let me share something. Vexing Shusher is a walking Vial when you play drain.dec. Vexing + Chalice has serious potential if you ask me. Hell you can even trow in some vials if you like but I prefer to play Null Rod right now. I did promote vial for a long time and I still do, it is a great alternative but it plays differently. With Vexing and chalice you don't really need vial you need another lock control piece like RoD. I didn't have a lot of time on my hands so I am not even close to a list. But my starting pile is:

I like the idea, but i'm not sure how well it would work in the real world. Spending 1 more mana for each spell could be pretty awkward. Oh and if people drain a spell, they still get mana (so the threats should be threatening enough that even with drain mana they're not going to do much. Sideboarding the shusher will probably be inefficient (removal comes in anyways) so it's MD or no-go. All in all interesting...And if you have a list with it, i'd love to see it   (There was also some post about a nether-shusher deck...any chance that nether void could be used for fish? (just a wild idea)

@zeus: Woud you consider dropping the swords for waterfront bouncer? that would up your blue count, It won't interfere with your 1 drop slot, and it is reusable utility. You might have to make the mystical vamp, but vamp is great anyway. I have also thought about the tidehallow sculler. what if you did something like -1 daze, -1 cannonist (which is not great in multiples). that way you could have a couple of duress creatures that were still 2/2 attackers, and they avoid cannonist.

if you are really worried about the blue count, why not cut 1 lion, 1 daze, and 1 mindscensor for like 3 cursecatcher. they attack, are blue, are awesome with rod, activate ninja, diversify your 1-drop slot, and all for u.

Mystical for vamp would be great, but with the blue count being so low it's not a good idea, however if cursecatcher's where added i'd play vamp...vamp is just a plain better card imo. Oh and i love multiple cannonist's for a few reasons:
A) They can be cast with counter back-up even if there is a cannonist in play.
B) Combo often has 1+ Chain of vapour and maybe 1 rebuild/hurkyl's...If they draw chain they won't be able to get rid of both even if it resolves.

I've also thought about fitting in a few Meddling mages simply to up the blue count...maybe:
-5 Cats and dogs
-1 Mystical tutor
-1 I'm not quite sure (Don't look it up, it's not a card )
+4 Cursecatcher
+2 Meddling mage

This might make ninja's slightly worse and unfortunetly there aren't enough space for mishra's which are awesome with ninja but otherwise "Meh".

There's also the question about the tutors...should a top-deck tutor be run? It's great for being plow #3 and E. Truth #2 but otherwise it's not that good and demonic consult is just superior imo.

/Zeus

[Guli]

Well I have been busy trying the loam/knight archetype. I combined two ideas and the results is a deck that does two things:

Your spells become immune to counter spells (Vexing Shusher)
Your creatures can not be targeted and you can not be targeted.

The draw engine is bazaar/loam. And those lands at the same time support your 'shroud to all' strategy'. While this is all going on you have a huge Knight on the table and STP as backup against aggro. That summarizes the idea in short. So you are playing some creatures, you get shroud, your creatures get shroud and they can't be countered. Some of them are huge body wise. And on top of that there is potential for Chalice@1, Chalice@2 and Null Rod. I don't like to post rough lists. But the main characters of the movie are True Believer, Vexing Shusher, Sylvan Safekeeper, Knight of the Reliquary.

Also there is the crop rotation/knight to get the strip lock with Loam. Effective with Chalice and RoD.

EDIT: What I am really trying to say in here is, after playing with vials and vexings I came to the conclusion that vexing functions as a vial in many situations. You can not combine vials and null rods but you can combine Null Rod and Vexing. Add in the Chalice and you have your first solid 12 cards to start your deck. In a way you are combining vial + rod with this approach. Sure mana drain still gets his mana but believe me getting your Null Rod through could be game changing.

[the boogie man]

If you play cursecatcher, I would urge you to try stifle again. The ability to destroy a fetch (or a huge number of other things) is key, And I think that they compliment catcher well.

[Lurker101]

What about Gelectrode + Curiousity if you're running red? Also Wee Dragonauts isn't a bad choice.

[the boogie man]

Both cost 3 mana, which means they better do some amazing things. plus, fish deck like to play a lot of creatures, somethin that does neither of these any good. plus, you would probably have to build a deck around them to get what you want out of them.

[Lurker101]

Both cost 3 mana, which means they better do some amazing things. plus, fish deck like to play a lot of creatures, somethin that does neither of these any good. plus, you would probably have to build a deck around them to get what you want out of them.

Fair enough. What about Rootwater Thief though? He can extract the cards straight out of your opponent's library.

[the boogie man]

rootwater thief seems like sb material. That would certainly spell the end for the tezz deck, but it eats mana and take a long time. and it seems really bad against aggro. Null rod seems to be the better 2 mana play, but against slower non-aggro decks, this card could certainly swing a match.

[Guli]

Another thing I want to point out in creature based tempo decks is the mana cost does influence the power level of the card. With this I mean two things. Is it easy castable and is it cheap. CC 2 is usually ideal for a creature with an ability or effect.  Also one of the required colors should be  . This will put less stress on the mana base and give the deck more flow.

A deck needs muscles, these days we call it clock 'aka' Tarm. We also want draw to keep up. That is were Confidant comes in. Notice the CC. And what a good fish deck also needs is some kind of powerful effect on a bear to stop the T1 unfairness.

    Tarmogoyf
    Dark Confidant
    Ethersworn Canonist

Too bad Null Rod isn't a creature. But Null Rod is really the next card you want with this creature base.

   Null Rod

These are all cards with 2 casting cost. But with consistent acceleration giving you 2 mana on turn 1 they can all be cast down depending on the match up. Cheap good and easy to play, it flows.

The Null Rod could be Aether Vial, then you add more creatures, creatures with preferably cc 2 and some cc 1 to maximize Vial. The Vial gives you a better matchup against stax and control but the nature of vial is that it gives you the tempo later on and not immediately. This can cause problems against combo and dredge. And most fish run Null RoD these days, a card that is usually dead in the mirror. Vial is also a card that goes well with immediate effects like True Believer, Gaddock TeeG, Canonist, Meddling Mage, Gilded Drake and the likes. Cards like Tarm and Confidant need cards like Null Rod to compensate for their rather long term plan. And Vial on the other hand needs the creatures listed above to compensate for its long term nature.

In short Vial plays out with different creatures than Null Rod. That is why I picked Null Rod and I believe that is why the UBG lists all run ROD's in order to stay in the meta.

What goes well with clock, draw, combo-hate and mana denial? Usually more mana denial and disruption/removal in general.

I am not going to fill in the entire list. But I am giving the yet another route. Feel free to try this creature base.

[the boogie man]

What are your guys' thoughts on dreadnaught? There has been talk of trying to put him into fish, and as fish already run stifle sometimes, it wouldn't be that huge of a stretch. it would also allow non-green fish to run a gigantic beater. Can fish afford to hold dead cards in their hand while they wait for a stifle? and getting 2-for-1'd would suck. It would probably force you to run all 4 stifle, too. in return, you end the game extremely quickly.

[Dr.KnowMaD]

@boogie man- FishNought is already a fun a decent build.  If you search the forums, I think you might find something on it.

@ Guli- I could see wizards printing a null rod with legs at some point.  I actually was hopping it was going to be from one of these latest sets. (with all the artifacts)


Dr.KnowMaD

[vassago]

I know this may seem a little awkward, but I think Vendilion Clique in fish builds is the nut-high.  The three mana cost is what may have some folks shy away from it, but I have played it and the thing steals games sometimes.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Ethersworn cannonist is also a very interesting card. As far as I know, not too many people maindeck this card, and for good reason. Without a deck set up to abuse this card, you could really put yourself in a hole. Counterwars no longer exist, and duress takes up your entire turn. Against storm, though, these seem fantastic.

Ethersworn Canonist can also be interpretted as "I only have to counter one spell a turn."  Consider Canonist over Old Man in Rich Shay's Remora deck.  Yes, as a single substitution it's strictly worse...that's not the point.  Your opponent cannot sandbag, they have to play spells to have any hope of winning.  You swing for 2 every turn.  You only need to counter spells that either bounce your Canonist, turn sideways for damage, or grant infi turns.  And honestly, infi turns is overrated when your opponent plays only pitch counters (3+ Commandeer, 2+ MisD, 4 Force) and draws every time you play a spell.

Canonist would be a key member of a theoretical Remora-based Fish deck that absolutely rapes Tezz and Combo.

Cut the Drains and Meditates, add some Bitterblossoms to laugh down Stax and Goyf, add 4 Cursecatchers and 2 Jotun Grunts to laugh down Ichorid (hint: Jotun Grunt can die on a whim, not just anti-mill) and you've got my current deck.