Bad Long, defending a bad deck which IMO is actually pretty good

[LennoxLewis86]

Hey readers who think wtf is Bad Long,

Earlier I've posted a topic on a so called FoW'less TPS deck running Confidant when one of ManaDrains good members redirected me to a deck called GWSx.
I've looked into it and like the build. The gameplan is different from most TPS decks, as it also didn't play FoW and likes to sit on Confidant until it can safely play a lethal Tendrils.
I've looked into dozens of GrimLong, PitchLong and TPS decklists and finally know where to draw the thin line between these archetypes.If you like consistancy you might wanna lean towards Pitch, DrainTendrils or regular U/B TPS with plenty of protection and disruption.
If you like winning fast and impressive I'd recommend GrimLong at it's fullest speed.

I like GrimLong, and I like the fear it brings to the game. And this deck is the best in what it does: win fast or hardly win at all... The longer the game drags, the harder it becomes for the inexperienced player to overcome his foe's skills. If a well trained Grim goldfisher takes on the best, he has a better chance to win games if the decks interact as little as possible. This is why I decided to let go of the Dark Confidants and tried for a faster build.
The first thing I had to think about is the manabase. Do I want to go for the rainbowlands or the fetchplan? After some thoughts I decided to stay with the fetchlands but with 4 colors, one specific card moved me to do so. I'll explain this later.
Shopdecks are very dangerous and using the rainbowlands properly is very difficult to do. Game 1 I'm weak to Shop decks but the sideboard plan becomes much easier to address when you can board in extra bounce and basics. This means I play with 5 fetchlands namely 4 Deltas and 1 Strand. Next to that I play 3 Underground Sea, 1 Tropical Island, 1 Volcanic Island and a Tolarian Academy. I carry three basic lands in my SB: 2 Islands and a Swamp.

I immeadiately decided to go for as many bombs as possible including the full set of draw7's with Twister, Wheel, Tinker>Jar and Windfall. Ofcourse Necro and Bargain are included. The fact that the cardadvantage is one-sided makes these, together with Ancestral Recall, the best bombs in the deck.

I also decided on the shaky Fastbond and Gush, they work together beautifully but on their own they could be very bad in some situations. Still, let me try to explain:
On turn 2 Gush is potentially a good card (when you try to go off) and it can be tutored for with Merchant Scroll in the case you have already cast Ancestral Recall or have Fastbond out. It also works well as a free carddrawer when you've just drew a fresh hand of a Draw7 and found a Gush. Now you can dig 2 deeper for free. Fastbond works nicely with Yawgmoth's Will and Draw7's as well so it's not that bad. In fact, it makes your Draw7's that much better because you can go into them with no mana floating and still have a remote chance you'll be able to combo out.
Also, with this many tutors it is very easy to find and cast the other piece of the combo. The combo [cc: 0 -INS- pay 2 life, add 2 mana of any combination of colors to your mana pool, then draw 2 cards] is just too sick to not include IMHO. Fastbond/Gush makes the deck potentially faster, but also more inconsistant. It is true that Gush can be bad in your openinghand but mid-game Gush is rarely a dead draw, only if you don't have 2 Islands in play it's possibly a bad draw... but chances are slim because you only run a single Gush and rarely go off in turn 1. (and if you do, it is often a calculated play with little to no risks)
Fastbond on the other hand should always be fine in an openinghand but can be bad when drawn into.
Remember, being able to cast both is absolutely crushing. Not to mention resolving Will with Fastbond out and Gush in your yard.

I don't want to turn this topic into a Fastbond/Gush in Grim argument so I'll continue to discuss other picks with you.
As I mentioned before, I wanted to sacrifice a little consistancy for speed and agressiveness. So I choose to play as little disruption as possible.
This actually means that you want to win the game by casting preferably no more than 2 Duress effects, and winning through all kinds of threats out there is hard.
On the bright side, you will have a very good game against other fast decks that try to win instead of not lose. Playing only 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Duress is dangerous, but you'll make room for more ways to win. I play 2 ESG, and already had to make room for Gush/Bond.

So without further ado, I present to you:

BAD LONG

Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
Tropical Island
Volcanic Island
Flooded Strand

2 ESG
Power9
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Memory Jar
Tinker
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Mind's Desire
Yawgmoth's Will
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Merchant Scroll
3 Grim Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
Fastbond
Gush
Chain of Vapor
Hurkyl's Recall
Brainstorm
Ponder
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
Tendrils of Agony
Regrowth
-------------------------------------
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Extirpate
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Rebuild
3 Xantid Swarm
Empty the Warrens


Obviously it's your typical Grim Long deck, but what's the difference between Grim Long and Bad Long? 4 Duress effects, Gush/Bond, red splash and fetchlands all make this deck to whatever it is but it most definitely deserves the name. People would call this bad when they see the list because it looks like the manabase is only there to support Gush/Bond, it's logical that if you play it with rainbowlands Gush is out and Fastbond too. Only Regrowth stops me from playing a solid U/B base with a little splash for Wheel and ETW. I've tested this for fun and the three cards pack a punch, especially Regrowth is sick. I always smile when I'm going off and dig into a Gush with 2 tapped Islands out, and I smile even more when I ESG a Fastbond into play to replay those lands and well.. win..
I just love those three cards, I miss them. I've been a fan since they were in their primes and I'm a fan long after. I think of any excuse to play them and my manabase is the biggest excuse for a serious vintagedeck, I love it!

You have to mulligan agressively, very agressively. This deck isn't consistant at all but it is consistant in what it does, when it does.. And it does it very fast.
Turn 1 is a good goldfish. I say in about 33% of the time you can do this but only when your opponent can't do anything. Maybe if I were better the percentages could be higher. There are way too many plays with a deck like this, especially with so many damn tutors..
I also like to gamble, so naturally I go for it when I think I could pull it off in a goldfish. Only when I KNOW they have something to stop me I play around it. No bluffs, no waiting.. just go..
I've learned this: it frightens people, and it frightens good players as well.. They hate to gamble and wish to use their skill/cards to perfection to win games.
Well, meet Bad Long: a pile of restricted cards and a shitload of tutors into them. Some messed up fetchplan and little disruption. But this deck is FAST!
Just what I like.

To explain the sideboard: I decided to go for strategies that involve helping me to combo out. The only card that prevents anything is Extirpate, it helps if I think the deck I'm facing is packing so much disruption I must neutralize it a little first. Tormod's Crypt buys me time, just the strategy I'm looking for.
This deck is designed to have a favorable game (1) against Ichorid, it doesn't need to dedicate so much slots to it because it just needs to go off faster.
It's easy to get rid of all Duress effects and board in the Tormod's Crypt. I think this deck is great against Ichorid because it takes a turn or two before things get out of hand. Bad Long can go off easily turn 2 and 3 if not disrupted. If they have Unmask so be it, but they still have to find a Bazaar in their openinghand. Good luck also having an Unmask and decent pitch to go with it.. I like my deck in this match-up, especially because it already plays little Duress effects, means less dead cards in my deck in game 1.
Against Tez I'm looking to pressure them in game 1. I'll try to beat their Mana Drain by going off before it comes online. The little Duresses remove Force but mostly I just imagine my opponent is a wall that can't do anything, if they counter me oh well.. Strategies are involved by playing bomb after bomb, forcing them to counter but if I see a path to victory I try to go to it as soon as possible. I also play with Xantid Swarms in my sideboard, this helps a great deal.
Other combodecks with control elements are good match-ups for me, it's too little control to really annoy me and too little combo to race me... Tez is just the exception because it has that oops I win combo, which is annoying.. Still, it shouldn't come any faster than my Tendrils.
Against workshop decks I board in extra basics and bounce, wait until the right time. Bounce, and go off.
I've played this online only, but have tested against people I meet who can play a lot better than me. And I've played some nice matches against randoms.

All in all, it's called Bad Long for a reason, the fact that the manabase, 4 colored core and little combo protection differ from many other TPS/Long builds I think it can be given a different name than 4cc Grim Long or just Long.

It's bad because it's a four colored pile of restricted cards with a lot of tutors and shaky manabase.
It's good because it's a four colored pile of restricted cards with a lot of tutors and a shaky manabase.

Last tuesday I bought a full set of power 9 and can't wait to get back into the days of tournamentplaying, and endless discussion on cards and decks.
This is the start to my new collection, and slowly I'm collecting the staple cards. I sold my extended/standard cards like 3 years ago but in the meantime I saved money for a car. Now I live in the city, and here in Amsterdam I only need a bike lol..
Now I would like to return to the coolest format of Magic, ofcourse vintage ^^

Please share your thoughts on this crazy but playable idea. I haven't had the chance to try this out against top players so my question to you is: do you see yourself playing a good game against this deck? Are there too many weaknesses to weigh out the extra cards? I put some serious time into testing and writing this so this is not just a random thought, but something I really consider playing. Thoughts on improving the list are most welcome, this is only version 1 and this deck needs a lot more versions to be as good as it can possibly be.

[LennoxLewis86]

The Hurkyl's Recall should actually be an Imperial Seal..
I have tested the HK build, but have liked the Imperial Seal better. Sometimes I wish I could tutor for a HK, but more times the Seal helps me win the game.

[ancestral recall]

The Hurkyl's Recall should actually be an Imperial Seal..
I have tested the HK build, but have liked the Imperial Seal better. Sometimes I wish I could tutor for a HK, but more times the Seal helps me win the game.

I'm not agree with this. What do this deck against a nine sphere shop deck like this:

4 goblin welder
4 smokestack
4 tangle wire
4 sphere of resistance
4 thorn of amethyst
1 trini
3 cow

Your only possible out is bounce his threats EOT, but if you cut the h.recall you have NO possible out against this deck! You also don't have Fows and you can't fetch basics. With this shaky mana base I think you lose against this match up.

[LennoxLewis86]

Yeah, it is very tough the first game. I rely solely on the chain of Vapor to help me out the first game in all the possible match-ups.
The die roll is extremely important here, if I win the roll I could very well win the match. The first game I have a bad match-up but I CAN go off turn 1 and there is
absolutely nothing Shop can do about it. After SB'ing I have a decent deck against it with extra basics and lots of bounce. Now I can wait until the right time, bounce his artifacts and win the match. I just have a very, very tough first game but luck has to pull me through that one. I feel it's worth the sacrifice because in many other games the Imperial Seal has proven to be mory handy.

Imperial Seal is close to never a dead card in hand, where other cards I've left out are dead in some situations. Imagine how often Hurkyl's Recall is a dead card against Ichorid for example? If it were a Seal, you'd be happy. That's my point. The pre-board build is very selfcentered and its pilot shouldn't care what he's facing. Try to win asap. I'm just wondering if it's a good strategy because I have very mixed results.

I don't worry about Welders, I don't have an artifact in the grave often. By the time they weld in something nasty they really should be dead. Smokestack the same story, too slow to keep me off.. I fear the Spheres the most, they can be wrecking balls on the play.. In game 1 it truly is a slim chance I win because if they go first it will be next to impossible. On the play I can go for broke, or set up nicely/Duress and cross my fingers he doesn't drop a sphere!
I've came back to win matches against Shop, I've dedicated 6 slots to beat those decks, 7 if you add in ETW.

Anyhow, thanks for the input. You pointed out one of its big weaknesses, very true. I will try to mix up the Hurkyl's and Seals.
I will have to wait and see if this lone HK can help me win 1st games of Shop matches.


 

[ancestral recall]

Imagine how often Hurkyl's Recall is a dead card against Ichorid for example?

What do you think about ichorid builds with mainboard chalice of the void (@ 0)??? This card make you very slow, so you would like to bounce this card if it hits the table.

About staxx, that's right what you said that you must keep cross your fingers for a sphere effect, but what if a tangle wire/ chalice or something hits the table? This gives staxx more turns (because you are now in a lock) to search for a possible out. If a welder, stack, tangle wire or sphere effect after this lock hits the table it is game for staxx. So what you can do is thinking about dark confidant in mainboard. This card gives you more card advantage, it's also a beater against possible drain decks (they must now out of control mode if it hits the table), staxx decks (because now they must find a trisk or 7/10, or a smoke stack).

What do you think about this?

[LennoxLewis86]

Imagine how often Hurkyl's Recall is a dead card against Ichorid for example?

What do you think about ichorid builds with mainboard chalice of the void (@ 0)??? This card make you very slow, so you would like to bounce this card if it hits the table.

That is true, that is a big problem. But the bigger problem is that even if I have the HK in my deck, I must first get it in my hand, and without moxen/crypt to jumpstart me it will be tough to play it in time. Besides, if I have to tutor for it, I could fetch the Chain of Vapor in the first place. Most of the time it takes up a tutor and some turns to get rid of this problem. This gives the Ichorid player all the time it needs to dredge his deck and kill me.
My thinking is this: the chances I have a HK/Chain in hand when chalice drops doesn't outweigh the chances the Ichoridplayer doesn't find a Bazaar and a Chalice in his openinghand.

Dark Confidant is great, but if I were to play Confidant I'd have a whole different strategy. This deck tries to build up a big stormcount fast, where Confidant is used to get in the 2 damage each turn and then you're finished off with a smaller but secure Tendrils.
I'm trying to give the deck the best chance I can give it by staying true to the core. I've tested all kinds of different cards but haven't yet removed Gush/Bond, the manabase or changed the number of Duresses to more.

Shopdecks are tough game 1, that's a fact. Controldecks are pretty tough too but I should have a better Ichorid/random match-up with less dead cards than other TPS decks. If I were to include cards that help me against certain decks main, I need the kind of cards like Duress that work against many different decks. But what I really want to try and do is build a very fast deck that can race Ichorid and Shopdecks (before anything nasty hits the table) and beat Mana Drains and FoW with speed..
The stupid thing is, in my mind it all works out perfectly but reality shows I have a tough time (sure I go off turn 1 here and there, yay but..) I'm clearly making it hard on myself with this.
Still, I refuse to give up!

Confidant is a very good card, but I want to give this a try before resorting to a different strategy. Any other card suggestions? I could make room here and there..
Perhaps good SB possibilities that make games 2/3 a lot easier against heavily played decks?

[ancestral recall]

First I want to know, what is the meta game where you played? So I can give maybe more tips/strategies for your deck.

[LennoxLewis86]

Okay, well..
The meta where I play I'm not familiar with. I used to get updates all the time and even went to a tournament playing TPS, but that was a long time ago, I borrowed the cards. Still, one of the best experiences and a cool day, except we got to see Portugal whoop our ass in the semis of Euro 2006 that very evening.
I went 3-3 and a draw with TPS which I only played a couple of times before, I played so badly you don't wanna know. That is maybe the reason why I'm trying this out. I topdecked like crazy I loved it.

So honestly, I have no idea. I'm a returning player but I'm enthusiastic about it as hell.. My meta is mws meta, I'm reading articles, look at decks, rebuild them and test them out online. I'm trying to get a good view of what's good worldwide. When I have myself a deck, I'll go to a tournament. Luckily some friends from back then still play and 2 players who stopped with me want to return thanks to me haha so hopefully it will be about the same as anywhere.

Let's say I play in your meta. What is your meta and what you do against it with my deck? Maybe a better question at the time being?

[ancestral recall]

I live in the Netherlands, the meta game is here very different. Deck playing here like, oath, drain (remora,tezz), TPS, staxx (nine spheres), aggro shop, fish (bug fish mostly), ichorid and some aggro is here.

K What does this deck against remora? And What about things like magus of the moon?

[LennoxLewis86]

Lucky me, I live in Amsterdam so I have your meta. You should know who lost to Portugal in the semis man, we hadden keihard verloren! Met al die overtredingen heh
OK, so Oath, Tez, tps, lots of shops, fish and ichorid..

Remora is a good question, I don't know. Is there some SB way of dealing with that? Maybe Negators or something?

Since we live in the same country.. What adjustments would you make and what SB you think works here?

[ancestral recall]

What do you think about SB?

[LennoxLewis86]

OK, first of all I took another look at the vintage Almelo t8 lists. I couldn't find any Ichorid or shopdecks there, Oath and TPS dominated.
The stormsdecks are all three different. One has no FoWs and plays 4 Wraiths.. The other builds pack more disruption.
Also the sideboards differ very much. The one had Remoras and the other had Hymns.
Different decks need different sideboards, that's all it tells me really..

I'll definitely keep the land + bounce plan in here if you say shopdecks are played, both 9spheres and AggroShop.
You've convinced me to run MD Hurkyl's + Rebuild in SB. Should I add another HK or Echoing Truth in SB?
I need at least 3 lands from my sideboard to beat wastes.


2 Negators
Echoing Truth
Rebuild
2 Island
Swamp
3 Tormod's Crypt
Empty the Warrens
3 Xantid Swarm

This is just sketchy as I've not tested this, especially not in the meta I think it could be suitable for.
I hope to have answers against the different decks you've mentioned with this..
The big difference already is is that I have access to other colors so access to many different SB cards.
I think ETW and Swarms can stay.