[Single Card Discussion] Rumor (AR) - Sen Triplets

[Guli]

The big difference with tezz is that triplets doesn't necessarily finish the game while tezz most likely will the turn later.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

The big difference with tezz is that triplets doesn't necessarily finish the game while tezz most likely will the turn later.

Triplets doesn't become useless against Null Rod or a creature with power>1. This card should end the game in at least most situations Mindslaver would if not more since you can steal creatures.

[vartemis]

It is not a weak mind twist.

True.  You only have to pay  to get rid of a card in their hand with a Mind Twist, this will more often than not cost you more.

Yes, you have to spend all your resources, but you get to play all of their cards. That's not even Mind Twisting, really, that's like Commandeering their entire hand.  And then, when you're done with theirs, you can go back to your full hand that's waiting.

Incorrect.  You get to play all of their cards that you have resources for.  Why would you want to spend your resources playing their deck and stalling them, when you could be using your resources with your deck to win?  This is not Commandeering.  Commandeering causes a shift in advantage by not only taking your opponent's spell, but also the resources he used to cast it.  This does not affect your opponent's resources in play.  With Slaver, not only do you get to rape their hand during their turn, but you can also tap them out and give yourself an unopposed hand your following turn.  That is a much more powerful effect than this.

Of course they will try to play everything good that they can when Triplets hits play, but at some point they probably will run out of mana, and not to mention that any card advantage they attempt to build will be completely null.

What cards would you possibly steal from an opponent that would bust the game right open?  The only ones I could think of are Ancestral, Duress, a tutor, yawgwill, Time Walk... that's about it.  I would much rather cast my spells in my own deck and win.

Mindslaver is not necessarily strictly better.  They do still get their attack step, but you get to cast some of their creatures/permanents and keep them.  Slaver relies on Welder to stay active, which is a drawback, but if you have Pentavus you can lock down.

Other than utility creatures like Welder, Swarm, or fish dudes, almost all creatures in vintage are cheated in.  How exactly do you plan to cast an Inkwell, Colossus, or Akroma?  As for spells, as mentioned above, how many spells could you possibly steal from an opponent that would be better than casting your own?

Frankly this is little more than a slightly better Shared Fate on legs.



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[policehq]

Speaking of Akroma, this guy wouldn't do much against Oath, either. So bad game against Oath, bad game against aggro, bad game against Stax (at best you play a Stax and opt not to add soot counters)... Combo can probably race this guy anyway.

[Xyre]

This card isn't good, and the comparison to Mindslaver is bad, for one very important reason: this card lacks immediacy. It requires you to sit on it until your next upkeep, whereas usually with Mindslaver, you'll activate it as soon as it hits play and get a turn immediately. It's atrocious in Oath for the same reason - by the time you get any effect out of it, it's two turns after you originally played Oath, and you could just use Hellkite and Akroma and win immediately.

[BruiZar]

The card to compare Sen Triplets to is a one-sided Nevinyrral's Disk. Nev's disk costs  and can be activated for  on the next turn. Sen Triplets costs  and is active the next upkeep. You can Mana Screw your opponent by casting Chain of Vapor on your opponents moxen, then copying the spell by sacking your opponents land and bouncing more moxen/other threats. After that you steal their moxen by playng them.

[eaglewolf]

You can Mana Screw your opponent by casting Chain of Vapor on your opponents moxen, then copying the spell by sacking your opponents land and bouncing more moxen/other threats. After that you steal their moxen by playng them.

You control the Chain and so you would have to sacrifice your own lands to do this.

[Diakonov]

Why would you want to spend your resources playing their deck and stalling them, when you could be using your resources with your deck to win?

and

As for spells, as mentioned above, how many spells could you possibly steal from an opponent that would be better than casting your own?

Because it prevents them from using the card and still gives you an advantage without having to spend a single card from your own hand.  Your cards will still be there, so once you've expended whatever is useful from their hand you can go back to yours.

This is not Commandeering.  Commandeering causes a shift in advantage by not only taking your opponent's spell, but also the resources he used to cast it.  This does not affect your opponent's resources in play.

This is true.  I shouldn't have worded it that way.

...but you can also tap them out and give yourself an unopposed hand your following turn.

This is essentially true for both cards.

What cards would you possibly steal from an opponent that would bust the game right open?  The only ones I could think of are Ancestral, Duress, a tutor, yawgwill, Time Walk...

...Tinker, FoF, Gifts, Thirst, Intuition, Remora, Vault, Key, Tezzeret, Welder, Tarmogoyf, etc.  Sure, the card itself that you stole might not "bust the game open," but even if you TfK and as a result they don't get to (while not having to spend any cards to do this), the swing in card advantage would be enough to put a very serious dent in the game.  Not to mention that taking one of their victory components can put them in a awkward position.

Other than utility creatures like Welder, Swarm, or fish dudes, almost all creatures in vintage are cheated in.  How exactly do you plan to cast an Inkwell, Colossus, or Akroma?

I never meant to suggest you consider playing one of those creatures.  But for those it doesn't make a difference anyway, because they are no more likely to be able to play those creatures from hand.  So, sure, I implied cast-able creatures.  Stealing a Welder would be fantastic (especially when you are running welders, and they apparently are playing a deck reliant on Welder), and so would Fish creatures, because it immediately confronts their own deck's game plan.  If you were only able to activate Mindslaver once or twice before setting up something-avus, which I do understand is not always the case, it's arguable that Sen's effect could be stronger against Fish-type decks.  Slaver can steal a couple of attack steps, but playing their creatures on your side should have a similar effect.

Just to be clear, I am sort of playing devil's advocate here.  I am not convinced that Triplets are "better" than Slaver, but rather that it is premature to say that Triplets are strictly inferior.  In most situations, a single Slaver activation is probably more effective than a single Triplets activation.  But, on the other hand, Triplets don't fall victim to Null Rod, don't cost anything to activate, and once Welded in require no further resources or Welder activations to keep running.

I think that more investigation is needed, real testing in particular, before any verdicts can be made.

EDIT:

You can Mana Screw your opponent by casting Chain of Vapor on your opponents moxen, then copying the spell by sacking your opponents land and bouncing more moxen/other threats. After that you steal their moxen by playng them.

You control the Chain and so you would have to sacrifice your own lands to do this.

Hah.  The fact that you can bounce something and then steal it is a funny trick regardless.  By the way, the opponent would still be the one to choose whether or not to sack lands and copy it, and it would have to be their own lands.  Triplets really has no effect on this part of the card. 

[nineisnoone]

Artifact, Blue, Castable.  Pass-the-turn-and-win(ish).  This is good enough to see play.  As an alternative to Tezz?  I'm not sure about that.  It might make Slaver a more viable choice again. 

[vassago]

       I like this card.  I am kind of on the fence about how good it will be though.  The potential for a new deck type is exciting to me, regardless of its "tier" standings.  I do like how its good with the serious staples of blue decks, like TFK and FOW.  I think this is what makes it even remotely playable, kind of like Inkwell Leviathan.  I do not, however, ever see it being hard cast.  It's possible, but I doubt it.  Like Eastman said earlier, TFk at end step, and activating Goblin Welder could be pretty vicious. 

       I spent some time thinking about the worst case scenarios of what would be in the opponents hands, so that I could have a better understanding of whether or not this card would be good.  I thought about a hand full of mana sources would be a bad situation, but if that is the contents of the proverbial "grip," then the triplets really would not matter because most likely you will be winning anyway. By the same token, all moxen and various artifacts would be played ASAP, so you wouldnt be stealing any of those. You would only get to steal those if they are bluffing a dead hand with them. You would never really get to cast their brainstorm, because assuming the opponent would be playing correctly, they would cast it either at EOT, or in response to the trigger, to "hide the goods."  Thirst for Knowledge seems to be a tricky one.  Would you want to cast it to prevent their card advantage, or is giving them too much to work with on their turn something to be cautious about?  What about Mana Drain and Force of Will?  Being able to play their spells and counter them with their own spells would efficiently empty their hand.  Mind Slaver also can have the same effect. What if its mana drain?  I am sure there would be plenty of situations where Main phase one, play one of their spells and Drain it, and then step into main phase two for the quick boost.  Obviously this requires a little bit of mana. Red blasting some of their board and/or spells would be cool, that is if they do not blast the triplets before you get an upkeep. This pretty much covers the cards that are more likely to be in their hands, as they would be four of's. Sorry if I am assuming that I would be playing against a drain matchup, but I think it is safe to due so in our current metagame.  Also, I am trying to not mention some of the more "busted" plays as I see it as inherently retarded if you say, for example, cast their Yawgmoth's Will or any other restrcited card for that matter.
 
      So what about other match ups? Making them 2 for 1 themselves by casting their own duress/thoughtseize would be awesome. I see that as unlikely because why wouldnt they play it if you have cards in your hand?  I think in the storm match up where they sometimes have to build up the hand this card would be deadly.  Make them empty the hand with rituals and tutoring up pointless cards could be crippling.  What about Oath? If they were playing Chalices you could set it at two and put them out of them game, but like most of what else I have said here, why wouldn't it already be on the table? 

     I have no idea whether or not I am thinking about this in the right way, but I think this card has potential.  Like I said earlier, I do not know how good it would be, but with the thoughts I have been passing through in my mind, I think this card should not be immediately dismissed as unplayable.  I do hope to see what people will do with it though. 

[Guli]

I like the comparison with slaver better then tezz. Tezz gives the opponent 1 more turn for real if their are no answers on the board regardless how vulnerable or tinkerable the cards are. Still slaver is also stronger in effect when you have welder. It seals the deal. This guy still gives the opponent a turn and a draw phase. Their are actually a lot of differences and I think the comparing is not that smart. Just look at the card on its own and think what it can do. (like Bruizar for example)

[BruiZar]

If the chain trick doesnt work, then repeal may be a better card. Heck, even rebuild/H.Recall.

[nataz]

ps, you cant duress yourself

[policehq]

ps, you cant duress yourself

But you're casting their Duress, targeting them.

[nineisnoone]

What cards would you possibly steal from an opponent that would bust the game right open?  The only ones I could think of are Ancestral, Duress, a tutor, yawgwill, Time Walk... that's about it.  I would much rather cast my spells in my own deck and win.

Every spell you cast is -1 opponent (they lose a card) +1 you.  That means you are netting +2 CA on top of whatever it was that you cast.  That is the functional equivalent getting a free Ancestral Recall on top of every spell that you cast.

[Bill Copes]

Not to derail the discussion of what goodies you can play out of your opponent's hand, but isn't this part of the card strong enough on its own?

This turn, that player can't play spells or activated abilities

Every turn you are chanting your opponent so that you can resolve whatever you want -- DT for tinker and go nuts, cast tez or vault without the fear of them being comandeered.  Hell, cast Juggernaut and live the dream.  Sen Triplets are a counter wall during every one of your turns.

[Harlequin]

Not to derail the discussion of what goodies you can play out of your opponent's hand, but isn't this part of the card strong enough on its own?

This turn, that player can't play spells or activated abilities

Every turn you are chanting your opponent so that you can resolve whatever you want -- DT for tinker and go nuts, cast tez or vault without the fear of them being comandeered.  Hell, cast Juggernaut and live the dream.  Sen Triplets are a counter wall during every one of your turns.

Actually, is this guy any better than Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir?  I mean like really, they are just going to dump thier hand during thier own turn.  So you will probably only ever play 1-2 random crappy spells.  Teferi in most cases seems better.

[policehq]

Not to derail the discussion of what goodies you can play out of your opponent's hand, but isn't this part of the card strong enough on its own?

This turn, that player can't play spells or activated abilities

Every turn you are chanting your opponent so that you can resolve whatever you want -- DT for tinker and go nuts, cast tez or vault without the fear of them being comandeered.  Hell, cast Juggernaut and live the dream.  Sen Triplets are a counter wall during every one of your turns.

But it's very likely that you've resolved a Tinker or Goblin Welder to get Sen Triplets into play. If they let Tinker resolve, then you're doing well anyway. If Goblin Welder has made it into play, then a lot of their counters are irrelevant if targeting an artifact threat.

I don't think your argument proves very much for the card.

[Troy_Costisick]

The effect on this card is definately powerful, but I'm having trouble seeing where it would fit in.  The four main ways I see it are Tinker, Welder, Oath, and Reanimate.

Tinker:  DSC can win much faster and Inky is much more stable.  If you Tinker the Triplets into play, your opponent's next turn will be all about finding a way to get rid of it or play off as many cards as possible to mitigate its effectiveness.  I don't see this new card killing as quickly as DSC or hanging around as long as Inky.  Heck, I don't see it staving off a loss as long as Platz and almost no one Tinkers for Platz anymore.

Welder: This guy has the best chance at abusing Triplets, but how is it better than Titan or Mindslaver?  I'm sure someone will chime in and say, "It's blue so it pitches for Force!"  Whoop-dey-flippin'-do.  That argument is way too worn out and CS has had no trouble Forcing in the past.  The only real advantage, IMO, is that the Triplets don't require mana to activate.  But with Mindslaver you get to use up your opponent's resources; the Triplets don't let you do that.  So at best, they're even.  Maybe.

Oath: Helkite + Akroma is faster, Progenitus is more stable.  No sense wasting time here.

Reanimate: I don't think Reanimator decks are viable right now, but it does have the advantage of bringing the creature back if it's killed or countered.  Perhaps with 8 Durress/Thoughtseize, a diverse mana base, and some other control pieces it could work, but I don't see how this graveyard strategy would be better than one of the Ichorid builds.  I just tossed it in for discussion.

I want Sen Triplets to be a powerful player in Vintage, but I can't envision a use that's better than the cards we have already. 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I think this card is best placed in a deck that can untap on turns 2-3 with it in play, preferably with an instant speed way of putting it in to play.

The effect on this card is definately powerful, but I'm having trouble seeing where it would fit in.  The four main ways I see it are Tinker, Welder, Oath, and Reanimate.

Tinker:  DSC can win much faster and Inky is much more stable.  If you Tinker the Triplets into play, your opponent's next turn will be all about finding a way to get rid of it or play off as many cards as possible to mitigate its effectiveness.  I don't see this new card killing as quickly as DSC or hanging around as long as Inky.  Heck, I don't see it staving off a loss as long as Platz and almost no one Tinkers for Platz anymore.

Welder: This guy has the best chance at abusing Triplets, but how is it better than Titan or Mindslaver?  I'm sure someone will chime in and say, "It's blue so it pitches for Force!"  Whoop-dey-flippin'-do.  That argument is way too worn out and CS has had no trouble Forcing in the past.  The only real advantage, IMO, is that the Triplets don't require mana to activate.  But with Mindslaver you get to use up your opponent's resources; the Triplets don't let you do that.  So at best, they're even.  Maybe.

I think what makes this card so good is that it is so versatile. Triplets are only bad against Ichorid. Your opponent won't always have enough mana to dump their hand and very few decks even run cards that are so terrible they're not worth stealing. I mean what, worst case scenario it is Xantid Swarm+Wasteland+a land+a 3/3+Mind Twist+draw X(opponent's hand) cards? I don't think this card should be run alongside Duress effects simply because they're counter-intuitive. Thus maybe some type of pitch-"slaver" style deck with some Misdirections?

I think the comparison to Platinum Angel is pretty accurate but the main difference is that Triplets not only make sure your opponent can't win but it also protects itself. I mean the Tinker answer of choice should now be Hurkyll's for Inky so it doesn't really matter what you fetch since if your opponent has the bounce they all get answered anyways. In all honesty it is more of whether you want a free borderline slaver lock+3 damage or 7-11 damage when you untap after a Tinker.

Also it is blue so it pitches to force. XD

[Diakonov]

Eastman suggested using it in Cerebral Assassin.  It seems like it might make sense there, because you're running Animates and Welders, Duress effects, and City of Brass.  Seems like a pretty decent fit.

And when comparing it to Slaver, don't forget the Null Rod factor.  It's likely that this still isn't quite enough for it to be better than Slaver in those archetypes.

I think if you were to include it in a Slaver-esque list, you would want to run City/Gemstone and more bounce spells, so the deck would be built somewhat differently from the start.  Definitely Hurkyll's.  Having multiple copies of moxes on your board would be pretty awesome.  This would be a devastating play if you could pull it off against Stax, but I suppose Hurkyll's is devastating enough on its own in that respect.

[TopSecret]

I want Sen Triplets to be a powerful player in Vintage, but I can't envision a use that's better than the cards we have already. 

Well, in theory, it's a damn good Tinker target against storm combo.
So, it could be decent as a second Tinker target in addition to Inkwell Leviathan.

It's also easier to hardcast than other Tinker targets in some kind of midrange control deck, like Bomberman.

So, it has some uses, but unless something has been overlooked, it's not the new Mindslaver or anything.

Of course, everyone also thought that Gifts Ungiven was a terrible Fact or Fiction when it came out,
so sometimes the applications of a card aren't immediately evident.

[Harlequin]

Well, in theory, it's a damn good Tinker target against storm combo.
So, it could be decent as a second Tinker target in addition to Inkwell Leviathan.
It's also easier to hardcast than other Tinker targets in some kind of midrange control deck, like Bomberman.

I think for all 3 points Mindslaver is 'strictly' better (except maybe the bomberman thing, but more genericly slaver in a drain deck is certainly of the same level of hard-castablity).  If you only have exactly enough mana to cast tinker, then mindslaver v combo wins the game as soon as you untap next turn.  Which is, lets say, "arguably the same."  The key desparity is that if you happen to have in the same turn you tinker you can skip forward over that untap and go immediatly to the "you /facepalm phase."  Its not like Triplets have Kicker if the kicker was paid then the ability goes into effect when ~ comes into play. 

Also an Active mindslaver can beat Ichorid, and is a good tinker target assuming you have this turn, or expect to get at least 1 more untap.   Where this can maybe block one Ichorid if you're lucky... you sure as heck aren't going to be playing any spells. 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Well, in theory, it's a damn good Tinker target against storm combo.
So, it could be decent as a second Tinker target in addition to Inkwell Leviathan.
It's also easier to hardcast than other Tinker targets in some kind of midrange control deck, like Bomberman.

I think for all 3 points Mindslaver is 'strictly' better (except maybe the bomberman thing, but more genericly slaver in a drain deck is certainly of the same level of hard-castablity).  If you only have exactly enough mana to cast tinker, then mindslaver v combo wins the game as soon as you untap next turn.  Which is, lets say, "arguably the same."  The key desparity is that if you happen to have in the same turn you tinker you can skip forward over that untap and go immediatly to the "you /facepalm phase."  Its not like Triplets have Kicker if the kicker was paid then the ability goes into effect when ~ comes into play. 

Also an Active mindslaver can beat Ichorid, and is a good tinker target assuming you have this turn, or expect to get at least 1 more untap.   Where this can maybe block one Ichorid if you're lucky... you sure as heck aren't going to be playing any spells. 

Well if you have 7+ mana on the table or can afford to casually take untap steps with an artifact on the table you've probably already won against Ichorid so slaver really shouldn't be a factor in that matchup. Also slaver is just a 10 mana Time Walk against aggro decks where as Triplets is a creature+lets you cast your opponent's creatures.

I think if you can design a deck that gets this card in to play fast enough it will be a house. This is probably not the kind of card that can just get slapped in to any deck with Tinker but Welder decks should be able to abuse it quite well.

[urweak]

Exotic Orchard just got a lot better. This might spawn a new version of slaver.

[eaglewolf]

You can Mana Screw your opponent by casting Chain of Vapor on your opponents moxen, then copying the spell by sacking your opponents land and bouncing more moxen/other threats. After that you steal their moxen by playng them.

You control the Chain and so you would have to sacrifice your own lands to do this.

Hah.  The fact that you can bounce something and then steal it is a funny trick regardless.  By the way, the opponent would still be the one to choose whether or not to sack lands and copy it, and it would have to be their own lands.  Triplets really has no effect on this part of the card. 

You're quite right. Total brain fart on my part. Playing tendrils gives me strange ideas about some cards