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Author Topic: Jail Stax  (Read 2424 times)
A_Outcast
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« on: April 26, 2009, 11:19:08 am »

I'm trying to get this staxx deck working.

Original Decklist
Code: ( Mana Sources/Lands:)
1 Barbarian Ring 
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring

Code: (Creatiures:)
4 Goblin Welder 
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion

Code: (Other Spells:)
1 Ancestral Recall 
1 Crop Rotation
3 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Smokestack
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
4 Meditate
1 Time Vault

Code: (Side Board)
1 Red Elemental Blast 
1 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Choke
3 Pithing Needle
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Powder Keg


Time Vault/Meditate are in there so once i get a Smokestack to 1/2 I can just use them to skip turns and make my opponent sacrifice more permenants.  Time Vaults second purpose is giving a goblin welder "haste" if need be by taking that extra turn and start welding things.
Spheres/Tangle Wires/Trinispheres are in there as disruption.

I was wondering if there was any way to speed it up or help me lock down my opponent's field more.




New Modified Decklist
Code: ( Mana Sources/Lands:)
1 Barbarian Ring 
1 Glimmervoid
1 Lotus Vale
3 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring

Code: (Creatiures:)
4 Goblin Welder 
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Ethersworn Cannonist

Code: (Other Spells:)
1 Ancestral Recall 
1 Crop Rotation
3 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Smokestack
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
1 Tinker
1 Uba Mask
4 Chalice of the Voids
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Code: (Side Board)
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Spawning Pit
1 Balance
2 Defense Grid
3 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 10:52:39 pm by A_Outcast » Logged

eaglewolf
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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2009, 12:51:19 pm »

If you're running a vault you really should consider running a voltaic key. I hear infinite turns are pretty good.
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A_Outcast
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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2009, 10:22:59 pm »

If you're running a vault you really should consider running a voltaic key. I hear infinite turns are pretty good.

While infinite turns are nice and all that is not the goal of the deck.  The time vault are there to help "throw away" a turn once i acheive the tangle wire lock with 1 or 2 counters on smokestacks to force them to sac extra permenants at the cost of them drawing an extra card, which should not matter at that point anyway.

While running the key would not hurt the deck in any way, I dont see how it would really help the deck that much since it only has 1 real search spells (demonic), and then tinker.  This also would make it difficult to pull off.
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Oath of Happy
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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2009, 02:42:42 am »

In a deck like this, worry about getting locks down, not giving up turns after you get locks down.  Meditate and Time Vault are just win more in this deck, so you might try a draw spell that helps when you dont have a smokestack out yet, like Thirst For Knoweldge which has been used succesfully in the past, like in Roland Changs deck that he won Worlds with in....2k6.  You also forgot one of the best spells ever in Workshop Decks: Balance. Vampiric tutor is pretty great too in this deck, and a lone Bazaar is great to tutor up as well if you get Goblin Welder out.  Lasty, I think that 1 Shaman, 1 Karn are weak for MD mox hate.  Chalice of the Void seems like an autoinclude, or at least 3 Null Rod.
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A_Outcast
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2009, 11:35:12 am »

In a deck like this, worry about getting locks down, not giving up turns after you get locks down.  Meditate and Time Vault are just win more in this deck, so you might try a draw spell that helps when you dont have a smokestack out yet, like Thirst For Knoweldge which has been used succesfully in the past, like in Roland Changs deck that he won Worlds with in....2k6.  You also forgot one of the best spells ever in Workshop Decks: Balance. Vampiric tutor is pretty great too in this deck, and a lone Bazaar is great to tutor up as well if you get Goblin Welder out.  Lasty, I think that 1 Shaman, 1 Karn are weak for MD mox hate.  Chalice of the Void seems like an autoinclude, or at least 3 Null Rod.

The reason I'm running Time Vault and Meditate is because there have been games when i didnt get my lock pieces into place till turn 3/4 and when that happens  I use it to knock them back a few turns so keeping them locked is easier.
II really like the idea of bazaar, im gonna definetly try it the deck again with a lone bazaar in, but what should I drop to get it in?  a city of brass?
I have never been a real fan of chalice, id rather put in a pithing needle.  yeah dropping it can be great if i know what im facing however I just am not a fan.
I dont like null rod because of all the artifacts with abilities im using (5 moxen, lotus, memory jar, crypt, vault, sol ring), so while it does nicely against things like tez and is useful to lock out my opponents moxen, i feel as though it might tie up too much of my mana.
Karn isnt necisarily in there for mox hate, but as a win condition by turning my artifacts into creatures and trying to beat my opponent to death with them.
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sorcutt
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2009, 12:11:33 pm »

I was a huge fan of Staxless Stax for a few years.  It's more of a pet deck though right now than a serious competitor in today's meta.  It loses to Combo, Ichorid, Tezz, Fish, Mono Red Aggro, and gets annihilated by Oath.  Post some solid testing results to validate your ideas.  I like your innovation, but what are your strong matches?
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« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2009, 10:01:05 am »

The reason I'm running Time Vault and Meditate is because there have been games when i didnt get my lock pieces into place till turn 3/4 and when that happens  I use it to knock them back a few turns so keeping them locked is easier.
II really like the idea of bazaar, im gonna definetly try it the deck again with a lone bazaar in, but what should I drop to get it in?  a city of brass?
I have never been a real fan of chalice, id rather put in a pithing needle.  yeah dropping it can be great if i know what im facing however I just am not a fan.
I dont like null rod because of all the artifacts with abilities im using (5 moxen, lotus, memory jar, crypt, vault, sol ring), so while it does nicely against things like tez and is useful to lock out my opponents moxen, i feel as though it might tie up too much of my mana.
Karn isnt necisarily in there for mox hate, but as a win condition by turning my artifacts into creatures and trying to beat my opponent to death with them.

I get the concept of your deck and why you are running Meditate, but I don't think it's going to be as good as you think it is.  Stax WANTS its turns.  It is crucial that you play something new and awesome every turn, not just sit on your Tangle Wire/Smokestack and hope the other person can't dig out. 

Bazaar is a very good draw engine/filter/Welder-pumper.  Don't cut mana for it, though, as it is not a mana-producing land.  Cut a draw spell (i.e. Meditate).

I can't begin to tell you how important it is that Stax runs Chalice of the Void.  It is the foundation of Stax.  Chalice @ 0 on the play can win you games.  Chalice @ 1 or 2 can seriously disable just about any Vintage deck, whether you know what they are playing or not.  Pithing Needle is a very poor substitute.

Null Rod is really really really good right now.  Most of the top decks are running full moxen/artifact mana as well as Time Vault, Key, and maybe other stuff like Top or Seat of the Synod.  Null Rod is a high point in power.  I don't think it's absolutely necessary for Stax to run Null Rod, especially if you are running the cards you mentioned, but it's worth considering.  If you are worried about drawing dead cards, Bazaar can help with that.

Karn is ok, but he is much stronger as a Mox eater/Leviathan blocker than as a win condition.  Your win condition should be making your opponent lose their board and not be able to play anything else.  There's no shame in attacking with Welders or Barbarian Ring recursion.
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2009, 11:42:49 am »

 Going back to your originaly list i'd make the following changes:
1. You seem to have the right idea, but stacks needs to have a strong turn one, main deck 4x chalice of the void does this, chalice 0 sphere of resistance is a very strong turn one play dis allowing the chaining of moxen turn one to negate sphere (that being said I'd up to 4x sphere of resistance). Also voiding out key spells and gaining vitural card advantage is very good too.
2. I would also cut the mox monkey for null rod, they both perform the same roll in a prison strategy, except null rod hates out time vault (which I believe this deck is not focused enough to abuse consistantly) and will not get chaillced out (considering you've made that change, also a lot of people cut mana vault for this reason but that choice is always more up in the air).
3. Memory jar has never been a card I liked in  5c shop lists, I'd often find my self wishing it was a lock piece. Using jar to find things is either time consuming or mana intensive. Not to mention null rod in this meta game, the the amount of play this card is seeing would also lead me to move trike to the sb in favor of duplicant main.
4. Balance is a blow out, play it!
5. Your running crop rotation and welder, so some amount of bazaar is always good, personaly I'd try to fit in at least 2.

I really feel your going to have a hard time resolving 3cc spells like meditate because of the lack of shop mana. If your insist on running them, I'd go for a blue based aggro verient with master, but in that startagy giving turns up seems bad. If you liked the tangle wire/ smokestack trix, go master transmuter/welder heavy. I'd advise playing the prison strategy  your title sugests.

Your sb also need a bit of work.
1. I'm not sure what the yawgs will is about, but you will find it to be too mana intensive.
2. The mix of pithing powder keg and t-crypt is obviously for ichorid/dredge/whatever it's called now. You probably want more than 4 total considering you have no real draw engine. I'd also recomend relic of progenitus over t-crypt, ichorid often casts challice of the void for 0 for the tempo advantage and spicificly t-crypt.
3. I'm assuming seal is for oath of druids, more duplicant, spawning pit, goblin bombardment, and ray of revilation are all superior cards to consider. If it's not for oath I'm also sure there's a better card for it, like ancient grudge.
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A_Outcast
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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2009, 11:52:55 pm »

1) I get the concept of your deck and why you are running Meditate, but I don't think it's going to be as good as you think it is.  Stax WANTS its turns.  It is crucial that you play something new and awesome every turn, not just sit on your Tangle Wire/Smokestack and hope the other person can't dig out. 

2) Bazaar is a very good draw engine/filter/Welder-pumper.  Don't cut mana for it, though, as it is not a mana-producing land.  Cut a draw spell (i.e. Meditate).

3) I can't begin to tell you how important it is that Stax runs Chalice of the Void.  It is the foundation of Stax.  Chalice @ 0 on the play can win you games.  Chalice @ 1 or 2 can seriously disable just about any Vintage deck, whether you know what they are playing or not.  Pithing Needle is a very poor substitute.

4) Null Rod is really really really good right now.  Most of the top decks are running full moxen/artifact mana as well as Time Vault, Key, and maybe other stuff like Top or Seat of the Synod.  Null Rod is a high point in power.  I don't think it's absolutely necessary for Stax to run Null Rod, especially if you are running the cards you mentioned, but it's worth considering.  If you are worried about drawing dead cards, Bazaar can help with that.

5) Karn is ok, but he is much stronger as a Mox eater/Leviathan blocker than as a win condition.  Your win condition should be making your opponent lose their board and not be able to play anything else.  There's no shame in attacking with Welders or Barbarian Ring recursion.

Sorry about putting numbers infront of your ideas, i did that to make it ezier to respond Smile

1) what i was figuring i figured pump stax up to 2-3 counters and just skip some turns to let it wreck my opponents board, however does that seem like a bad idea? 
2) Ya i dont know what i was thinking cutting a mana source for a bazaar, brain fart ><
3) didnt realize chalice was that important, thanks for the tip, ill definetly include some more.
4) well while all the other decks are running those mana sources, im running most of those sources myself.  and with a singleton bazaar i cant hope to always draw into it.  maybe sideboard for when facing bomberman and key/vult? or would throwing 1-2 into main deck be just that crucial?
5) yes field controle is the main kill condition but karn is just that little backup incase something goes wrong Smile

Going back to your originaly list i'd make the following changes:
1. You seem to have the right idea, but stacks needs to have a strong turn one, main deck 4x chalice of the void does this, chalice 0 sphere of resistance is a very strong turn one play dis allowing the chaining of moxen turn one to negate sphere (that being said I'd up to 4x sphere of resistance). Also voiding out key spells and gaining vitural card advantage is very good too.
2. I would also cut the mox monkey for null rod, they both perform the same roll in a prison strategy, except null rod hates out time vault (which I believe this deck is not focused enough to abuse consistantly) and will not get chaillced out (considering you've made that change, also a lot of people cut mana vault for this reason but that choice is always more up in the air).
3. Memory jar has never been a card I liked in  5c shop lists, I'd often find my self wishing it was a lock piece. Using jar to find things is either time consuming or mana intensive. Not to mention null rod in this meta game, the the amount of play this card is seeing would also lead me to move trike to the sb in favor of duplicant main.
4. Balance is a blow out, play it!
5. Your running crop rotation and welder, so some amount of bazaar is always good, personaly I'd try to fit in at least 2.

I really feel your going to have a hard time resolving 3cc spells like meditate because of the lack of shop mana. If your insist on running them, I'd go for a blue based aggro verient with master, but in that startagy giving turns up seems bad. If you liked the tangle wire/ smokestack trix, go master transmuter/welder heavy. I'd advise playing the prison strategy  your title sugests.

Your sb also need a bit of work.
6. I'm not sure what the yawgs will is about, but you will find it to be too mana intensive.
7. The mix of pithing powder keg and t-crypt is obviously for ichorid/dredge/whatever it's called now. You probably want more than 4 total considering you have no real draw engine. I'd also recomend relic of progenitus over t-crypt, ichorid often casts challice of the void for 0 for the tempo advantage and spicificly t-crypt.
8. I'm assuming seal is for oath of druids, more duplicant, spawning pit, goblin bombardment, and ray of revilation are all superior cards to consider. If it's not for oath I'm also sure there's a better card for it, like ancient grudge.
1) I'll definetly add the extra chalices.  I didnt originally see how important they are but ya, someone could chain moxen on turn 1 if i only drop a sphere.
2) ya i have mostly ended up using gorilla shaman as a tap item for tanglewire.  ill def drop him and something for 2 null rods.
3) i playtested against my g/f today her plyaing oath and slaver and both times jar just sat there being worthless, ima end up cutting it.
4) okay, will do Smile
5) im definetly adding one

SB
6) i originally had it in there just because it was broken, however... i cant think of any use for it so ima end up dropping it.
7) my main issue with relic is that it also removes my g/y.  but i will add some more ichorid hate, thanks for the tip though.  didnt even think about chalice at 0.
8) thanks, didnt even know about half of those cards.  switched to goblin bombardment
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2009, 02:36:44 pm »

glad I was helpfull. I know that relic of progenitus is two sided, but its a tool they have a ard time dealing with, and their grave yard is far more valuble to thier game plan than yours is.  Remeber to  keep tweaking the numbers of cards, particularly in the sb, till you feel your deck has consistant ansewers. Play testing is the best way to do this. Don't forget to test your sb, post bored is 2/3's of the game afterall. if your worried about oath, and don't have a lot of slots, remeber that ray of revilation can be bazaared into, or if you draw one, take care of 1/2 thier oaths. With your build I'd sugest tryign that out first. Goblin bombardment is good, but sometimes leaves you with a, "well your not gunna win with is out, but how do I win with these robots" feeling  (I did notice you were playing things like b-ring and factory, but as 1 ofs, they work but slowly). If your trying bombardment and your liking it, and its numbers, by all means stick with what's working.

You might want to fit a duplicant main. He's obviously good against random aggro and oath g1 on his own, and with welder he's a force to be reaconed with. If your looking for somehing to cut, I'd consider uba mask, I've been know to run one solo myself. With welder and crucible you have a lot to synergize with bazaar as is, not to mention its hard to achine a lock with only 1(althought it does have uses by its self). Again, if you like what you've got going keep it, but if something feels amiss in the ansewer too dudes department, try this out.

I'd also strongly sugest upping to 4x sphere of resistance. I know space seems tight, but sphere of resistance is disruption/lock peice that synergizes with nearly ever aspect of the deck and it stacks with its self! I consider 4x sphere of resistance +4x challice of the void the heart of shop
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A_Outcast
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2009, 02:43:09 am »

i tried null rods and they tore me apart.  otherwise i completely redid my s/b to make it stronger in general.

i also added in the 4th sphere.  im considering droping the relics from side to get a better answer in general because leyline is real strong by itself.
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