Using Impulse and shuffle effect

[chubah]

Hey there, I just wanted to ask for you feedback on this since I can't figure it out myself.
After playing Impulse would you rather shuffle afterwards so those 3 cards that will be put on the bottom of the library will be shuffled back to the deck, or would be better for those 3 cards to stay on the bottom of the library since they will be worse quality compared to the one you will select and put in your hand?
I know that sometimes those 3 cards might be needed while other times the can be useless, but as a general rule and talking statistically does Impulse benefit from a shuffle effect or does it defeat the whole purpose of the card?

[maatn]

Actually, as far as I know, Impulse has been errata-ed so that you no longer need to shuffle.

Impulse

      Color= Blue    Type= Instant    Cost= 1U    VI(C)/BD(F1)
      Text (VI+errata): Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library. [Oracle 1999/07/01]
    * Due to errata, you no longer shuffle your library. [Oracle 1998/07/01]
    * This is not a "draw". [Aahz 1997/01/29]

You just put cards on the bottom these days..

[chubah]

Actually, as far as I know, Impulse has been errata-ed so that you no longer need to shuffle.

Impulse

      Color= Blue    Type= Instant    Cost= 1U    VI(C)/BD(F1)
      Text (VI+errata): Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library. [Oracle 1999/07/01]
    * Due to errata, you no longer shuffle your library. [Oracle 1998/07/01]
    * This is not a "draw". [Aahz 1997/01/29]

I'm well aware of the rules, I'm just asking whether shuffling effects are bad in your deck if you are playing Impulse. As a general rule and statistically speaking does Impulse benefit from a shuffle effect or not?

[LotusHead]

If you have, say, a fetchland out, and Impulsed a sweet card to the bottom of your deck (say, Tinker Lotus Basic Land etc) then activating a shuffle effect might be in your best interest.  Especially with say, a tutor in your hand.

hope that helps.

[RichardD]

Useless discussion imho, unless they print a card which does exactly the same, except for that you have to shuffle the cards into your deck instead of putting them on the bottom.

[Diakonov]

If you're asking what's better to do completely objectively, before you've even seen the 4 cards, then the answer would be to not shuffle.  If you've already taken the best out of 4 cards, then you'd do better to see a brand new set of 4 cards next time as opposed to possibly turning up cards you did not choose last time.

[DubDub]

If you're asking what's better to do completely objectively, before you've even seen the 4 cards, then the answer would be to not shuffle.  If you've already taken the best out of 4 cards, then you'd do better to see a brand new set of 4 cards next time as opposed to possibly turning up cards you did not choose last time.

That's not entirely true.  The decision should be based on which you value more, a random card from your deck save the three put on the bottom, or a random card from your deck including those three.  Which card you choose to take with Impulse actually has no bearing on whether you'd like to shuffle before your next draw, except insofar as it informs your value of the remaining cards in your deck (including the three you didn't choose).  If I impulse and see: AR, Will, Lotus, and Demonic, whichever I take, I'd probably shuffle (with a fetchland) if possible to have a chance at drawing one of the other three.

[Diakonov]

If you're asking what's better to do completely objectively, before you've even seen the 4 cards, then the answer would be to not shuffle.  If you've already taken the best out of 4 cards, then you'd do better to see a brand new set of 4 cards next time as opposed to possibly turning up cards you did not choose last time.

That's not entirely true.  The decision should be based on which you value more, a random card from your deck save the three put on the bottom, or a random card from your deck including those three.  Which card you choose to take with Impulse actually has no bearing on whether you'd like to shuffle before your next draw, except insofar as it informs your value of the remaining cards in your deck (including the three you didn't choose).  If I impulse and see: AR, Will, Lotus, and Demonic, whichever I take, I'd probably shuffle (with a fetchland) if possible to have a chance at drawing one of the other three.

That makes sense, but it was my understanding that he was asking what's better objectively.  If you have to make the decision of whether not you plan on shuffling before Impulse resolves (but the actual shuffling/not shuffling happening after), it would be better to not shuffle.

In other words, comparing the two ways the card could read:

Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.

or

Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.  Shuffle your library.

I'm saying the former card is better.  If it were this:

Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.  You may shuffle your library.

...that would obviously be the best version.

[DubDub]

That makes sense, but it was my understanding that he was asking what's better objectively.  If you have to make the decision of whether not you plan on shuffling before Impulse resolves (but the actual shuffling/not shuffling happening after), it would be better to not shuffle.

Agreed.  The errata on Impulse makes it a better card in general, which is weird, isn't most errata intended to lower power level?

[chubah]

In other words, comparing the two ways the card could read:

Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.

or

Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.  Shuffle your library.

I'm saying the former card is better.  If it were this:

Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.  You may shuffle your library.

...that would obviously be the best version.

So in a few words, there is no reason at all to run 4 Fetchlands in a deck just to add a shuffle effect when using Impulse, right?

[dark burn]

Impulse only gets better if you have the option to shuffle your library after you use it.  If it doesnt cost you anything to add the four fetches, you should.  More options are always better.

[Oath of Happy]

Useless discussion imho, unless they print a card which does exactly the same, except for that you have to shuffle the cards into your deck instead of putting them on the bottom.

It's actually pretty relevant and the answer to the question is completely dependant on the context.  As an Impulse player I come across this situation all the time.  

Heres one situation: you get to the mid game and have a great mana base in play and you want to be topdecking spells. Then you will Impulse into something with 2 or 3 mana sources.  Take the draw spell or counter, throw the crap on bottom.  Now, if you have a fetchland but don't need the mana at the moment, hold it back.  The purpose of fetching mid game with a good mana base set up is to statistically improve the quality of your topdecks by taking out land, however, since you have 2 or 3 mana sources on the bottom, your actually increases the odds of drawing dead: -1 from the fetch +2/+3 from the shuffle.  Theres 2 paths to take here.  Either A), use the fetch first, to increase the quality of the cards you will see when Impulse resolves, or B), save the fetch so that if you see 3-4 buisness spells, you can shuffle them back into the deck and have a chance at topdecking them.  If you choose plan B and end up seeing 2 or more mana sources throw junk on bottom, then save the fetch back untill you either want to tap out, or are going to shuffle via a tutor.  Then, lets say 2 turn later you play Demonic Tutor.  Wait to see if Demonic resolves.  After it has resolved, your next move should be to pop the fetch and thin the deck out.

The majoirty of the time it will be better to keep the cards on bottom, however you should run as many fetches as you can anyway because the late game thinning effect that accumulates after you've popped 3 or 4 of them is priceless and will generally make the 4 cards you see off Impulse better.  Plus, in any deck running Impulse your also going to be using a Brainstorm and a Ponder.

[RichardD]

Useless discussion imho, unless they print a card which does exactly the same, except for that you have to shuffle the cards into your deck instead of putting them on the bottom.

It's actually pretty relevant and the answer to the question is completely dependant on the context.  As an Impulse player I come across this situation all the time.  

Heres one situation: you get to the mid game and have a great mana base in play and you want to be topdecking spells. Then you will Impulse into something with 2 or 3 mana sources.  Take the draw spell or counter, throw the crap on bottom.  Now, if you have a fetchland but don't need the mana at the moment, hold it back.  The purpose of fetching mid game with a good mana base set up is to statistically improve the quality of your topdecks by taking out land, however, since you have 2 or 3 mana sources on the bottom, your actually increases the odds of drawing dead: -1 from the fetch +2/+3 from the shuffle.  Theres 2 paths to take here.  Either A), use the fetch first, to increase the quality of the cards you will see when Impulse resolves, or B), save the fetch so that if you see 3-4 buisness spells, you can shuffle them back into the deck and have a chance at topdecking them.  If you choose plan B and end up seeing 2 or more mana sources throw junk on bottom, then save the fetch back untill you either want to tap out, or are going to shuffle via a tutor.  Then, lets say 2 turn later you play Demonic Tutor.  Wait to see if Demonic resolves.  After it has resolved, your next move should be to pop the fetch and thin the deck out.

The majoirty of the time it will be better to keep the cards on bottom, however you should run as many fetches as you can anyway because the late game thinning effect that accumulates after you've popped 3 or 4 of them is priceless and will generally make the 4 cards you see off Impulse better.  Plus, in any deck running Impulse your also going to be using a Brainstorm and a Ponder.

So it is still a useless discussion, because Impuls does not do what the OP thought it did AND you're talking about the interaction of Impulse with Fetch land, which is an entirely different situation. It is also an obvious that the choice to either crack or keep the Fetch land depends on what you saw in the Impulse.

You're basically saying that Impulse would be a far better card if it would read:

Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.
You may shuffle your library afterwards.

But it doesn't say that. Therefore discussing whether or not it Impulse benefits from the shuffling is irrelevant unless they print a card that does that or gives the choice to do it.

[chubah]

So it is still a useless discussion, because Impulse does not do what the OP thought it did AND you're talking about the interaction of Impulse with Fetch land, which is an entirely different situation.

You are wrong about that, I am talking about the interaction between Fetchlands and Impulse. I'm just trying to figure out whether I should keep the Fetchlands in a monocolored deck with 4 Impulse and 1 Brainstorm or not.

[Oath of Happy]

Useless discussion imho, unless they print a card which does exactly the same, except for that you have to shuffle the cards into your deck instead of putting them on the bottom.

It's actually pretty relevant and the answer to the question is completely dependant on the context.  As an Impulse player I come across this situation all the time.   

Heres one situation: you get to the mid game and have a great mana base in play and you want to be topdecking spells. Then you will Impulse into something with 2 or 3 mana sources.  Take the draw spell or counter, throw the crap on bottom.  Now, if you have a fetchland but don't need the mana at the moment, hold it back.  The purpose of fetching mid game with a good mana base set up is to statistically improve the quality of your topdecks by taking out land, however, since you have 2 or 3 mana sources on the bottom, your actually increases the odds of drawing dead: -1 from the fetch +2/+3 from the shuffle.  Theres 2 paths to take here.  Either A), use the fetch first, to increase the quality of the cards you will see when Impulse resolves, or B), save the fetch so that if you see 3-4 buisness spells, you can shuffle them back into the deck and have a chance at topdecking them.  If you choose plan B and end up seeing 2 or more mana sources throw junk on bottom, then save the fetch back untill you either want to tap out, or are going to shuffle via a tutor.  Then, lets say 2 turn later you play Demonic Tutor.  Wait to see if Demonic resolves.  After it has resolved, your next move should be to pop the fetch and thin the deck out.

The majoirty of the time it will be better to keep the cards on bottom, however you should run as many fetches as you can anyway because the late game thinning effect that accumulates after you've popped 3 or 4 of them is priceless and will generally make the 4 cards you see off Impulse better.  Plus, in any deck running Impulse your also going to be using a Brainstorm and a Ponder.

So it is still a useless discussion, because Impuls does not do what the OP thought it did AND you're talking about the interaction of Impulse with Fetch land, which is an entirely different situation. It is also an obvious that the choice to either crack or keep the Fetch land depends on what you saw in the Impulse.

You're basically saying that Impulse would be a far better card if it would read:

Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library.
You may shuffle your library afterwards.

But it doesn't say that. Therefore discussing whether or not it Impulse benefits from the shuffling is irrelevant unless they print a card that does that or gives the choice to do it.

You might be having slight trouble with reading comprehension.  Take a look at chubah's second post, as he clearly wrote:  "I'm well aware of the rules, I'm just asking whether shuffling effects are bad in your deck if you are playing Impulse. As a general rule and statistically speaking does Impulse benefit from a shuffle effect or not?"

[LordHomerCat]

So it is still a useless discussion, because Impulse does not do what the OP thought it did AND you're talking about the interaction of Impulse with Fetch land, which is an entirely different situation.

You are wrong about that, I am talking about the interaction between Fetchlands and Impulse. I'm just trying to figure out whether I should keep the Fetchlands in a monocolored deck with 4 Impulse and 1 Brainstorm or not.

This would have been a better question.  On the one hand, you get a (very) minor deckthinning bonus, and brainstorm with a fetchland is very powerful.  But on the other, you open yourself up moreso to stuff like Blood Moon, Stifle, Aven Mindcensor, Rootmaze, Pithing Needle, and other cards which prey on fetchlands.  The effect from shuffling your Impulsed cards will probably be minimal (if you're running mono blue, what 1-ofs do you even care about other than Ancestral and maybe Tinker if you run it) and its not like you are going to be choosing between Tinker, Will, Ancestral, Time Walk or something.  You only run like 2 cards at most that are unique (Recall and Tinker) so who cares if you send a Mana Leak to the bottom when there are still 3 more and 4 drains etc. etc.  Doesn't seem worth bothering (or at most, running like 3-4 fetches just for brainstorming).