BG Crop Rotation Aggro

[ErkBek]

Duress and Crop Rotation seem really good together. Duress can clear the way for Cropper very efficiently, while being a highly versatile card that gets even better with blue losing more draw spells. I don’t forsee Workshop-Crucible being workable into a deck that starts like:

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
3 Crop Rotation
1 DT
1 VT

However, Life from the Loam could be highly synergistic since Bazaar would be a definite inclusion in a deck with multiple Crop Rotations.

1+ Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Life From the Loam

Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, and Null Rod all play very well together.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Null Rod

Answers to various threats could be built into a land toolbox, something like:

1 Maze of Ith / Mishra’s Factory (Maze if vs. DSC / Titan, Factory for Inkwell)
1 Tabernacle of Pendrelvale / Cabal Pit

Not sure what else you’d want to run to round out the last few slots, but seems like the deck would be pretty solid. Could go Dawn of Dead style and run Zombie Infestation, but I think ZI is win more. Loam-Crime is real slow and Cabal Therapy doesn’t work so well when the only unrestricted cards are FoW and Drain….Probably 4 Bazaars would be a good start on rounding things out.

Thoughts on this shell? Ideas on where to take the deck?

[TopSecret]

I think one interesting thing is that Entomb can get Strip Mine or Life from the Loam into the graveyard.

In addition, Bazaar and Entomb are both good at putting cards into the graveyard
and Bazaar has synergy with Life from the Loam.

I think the Dawn of the Dead idea is kind of interesting.
If you were going to do that, what about playing Knight of the Reliquary?
I know that would be splashing white, but the sheer size of Knight in such a shell could warrant it,
not to mention it's ability to tutor up the silver-bullet lands you mentioned.

What about playing Reanimates and one fatty as a kind of plan B if you played Entombs and Bazaars?
Casting a Reanimate and an Entomb, or a Reanimate after discarding with Bazaar doesn't take a lot of mana
and it puts up a fast clock that allows you to leverage the mana denial you'd be spending the rest of your mana on.
You'd also know when it was worth going for because of your Duress effects.
Unearths could be neat if you play multiple Bazaars, especially if Knights are maindeck.

Also Riftstone Portal and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth could be interesting
if you play a lot of colorless lands between Bazaar, Maze of Ith, and Wastelands.

[Guli]

I didn't want to rush with my contribution. I am thinking about the concept as well though. I ll slowly and safely start with the question; Why these two colors? If we start the thread with crop rotation, so GREEN, I can understand the auto addition of 'Goyf but not black. Sure duress is powerful and dark confidant is superb to generate cards/resources. Still that doesn't mean that black is the most optimal choice when designing something with a committal card like crop rotation. I think when you play duress you will most likely take one of their bombs instead of counter magic. Crop rotation isn't exactly counter their broken spells. Or are you foreseeing a lot power in crop rotation? Don't forget that you sac a land, and a resource (card) that might be something else.

Knight will be very big. Like big enough to walk over Inkwell. I tested him a while ago. I still would play some 'Goyf, too good for only 2 mana especially with life from loam which is another natural add.

I would NOT limit the options by saying black is a must. With Knight you don't need Diabolic edict to fight Inkwell. With crop rotation you will most likely get that Strip Mine to get rid of Bazaar vs Ichorid hence less need for black to fight dredge. And you have a draw engine with bazaar/loam if you want to talk about draw (dark confidant).

I believe white is also very interesting, E.Tutor for example can be considered. Qasali, TeeG, Goyf', Knight seems like a strong creature base to start with.

In essence; keep the options a bit more open color-wise.

[Little Joe]

]// Lands
    1  Maze of Ith
    4  Windswept Heath
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    1  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4  Bayou
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    1  Fastbond
    4  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Imperial Seal
    4  Duress
    4  Thoughtseize
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    4  Crop Rotation
    1  Mox Emerald
    4  Life from the Loam
    4  Null Rod
    1  Mox Jet

I tried to make a list and that is what I got. I could probably fit in entomb somewhere, and I think it would help, but Im not sure where to fit it in. I'm running only 1 workshop because I figure I can tutor for it, but maybe I should be running more than one. The maze and tabernacle are basically toolbox lands that can be grabbed. I tried to focus on loam because it seems really great, but now that I think of it, maybe a zombie infestation combo with it may work. It might be too slow, but like I said, I made this in 45 minutes or so.

[Troy_Costisick]

// Lands
    1  Maze of Ith
    4  Windswept Heath
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    1  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4  Bayou
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    1  Fastbond
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Imperial Seal
    2  Entomb
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    4  Duress
    4  Thoughtseize
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    3  Crop Rotation
    1  Mox Emerald
    3  Life from the Loam
    4  Null Rod
    1  Mox Jet

Don't just post a decklist without any explanation.  Why did you choose 3 Crucibles instead of 4? Why not play the max number of Rotations?  What's the idea behind including Yawgmoth's Will?  Just dropping a list in an empty space does nothing to add to the discussion.

[Little Joe]

// Lands
    1  Maze of Ith
    4  Windswept Heath
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    1  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4  Bayou
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    1  Fastbond
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Imperial Seal
    2  Entomb
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    4  Duress
    4  Thoughtseize
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    3  Crop Rotation
    1  Mox Emerald
    3  Life from the Loam
    4  Null Rod
    1  Mox Jet

Don't just post a decklist without any explanation.  Why did you choose 3 Crucibles instead of 4? Why not play the max number of Rotations?  What's the idea behind including Yawgmoth's Will?  Just dropping a list in an empty space does nothing to add to the discussion.

After I posted it I went to edit it and apparently it didn't save. I'm going to fix the post again, give me a few.

[ErkBek]

Sure duress is powerful and dark confidant is superb to generate cards/resources. Still that doesn't mean that black is the most optimal choice when designing something with a committal card like crop rotation. I think when you play duress you will most likely take one of their bombs instead of counter magic. Crop rotation isn't exactly counter their broken spells. Or are you foreseeing a lot power in crop rotation? Don't forget that you sac a land, and a resource (card) that might be something else.

I probably could have been more descriptive than "Duress + Crop Rotation = Good."  

I know this probably will sound cliche, but the information you gain off Duress in this deck would be highly valuable with Crop Rotation. Playing Duress turn 1 let's you determine how you need to play the rest of the game, specifically the mana denial aspect. Let's say you Duress Turn 1 and see 3 lands, a mox, and 3 other cards. You've got a Crop Rotation in hand. You can choose their Mox, then Strip their land. Or you can decide that decide that you need to take their counter, bomb, Voltaic Key, etc. Maybe you should hold back on Crop Rotation for a while and cast Bob next turn. Duress puts you in total control of the game allowing you to make optimal plays in a decision-heavy denial strategy, meanwhile taking their best card.

I think one interesting thing is that Entomb can get Strip Mine or Life from the Loam into the graveyard.

In addition, Bazaar and Entomb are both good at putting cards into the graveyard
and Bazaar has synergy with Life from the Loam.

I think the Dawn of the Dead idea is kind of interesting.
If you were going to do that, what about playing Knight of the Reliquary?
I know that would be splashing white, but the sheer size of Knight in such a shell could warrant it,
not to mention it's ability to tutor up the silver-bullet lands you mentioned.

I'd rather not run Entomb. It doesn't have an immediate impact on the game, is card disadvantage, and makes you even more GY dependent (so you'll always want to board it out).

Knight of the Reliquary is a great idea, good enough to warrant going 3 colors (Crop Rotation and Strip Mine gives us game vs. Wastelands). Even though it’s 3 mana, Knight is just a huge threat that can play beatdown or disruption. Probably would only want to run 2-3 though. Going into white gives us Balance and STP’s for the SB.

I think running a single Crucible is worthwhile. There are some games were you’d probably rather just tutor up Crucible for Strip Locks rather than playing Loam every turn. Also, the answer to Inkwell is Mishra's Factory blockage. If they attack every turn and force you to recur factory every turn, hopefully you've got something else going (ie: attacking them with Goyf or Bob, etc).

Here's what I'm thinking so far:

4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 Kinght

3 Loam
1 Crucible
3 Crop Rotation
1 Vamp
1 DT

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Null Rod

3 Bazaar
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory / Mutavault
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

1 Riftstone Portal
1 Urborg
4 Windswept Heath
2 RG Fetchland
1 Forest
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland

1 Lotus
1 Emerald
1 Jet
1 Pearl
1 Off-color (4 mox, 1 off-color has proven optimal in Null Rod fish decks I've built)

1 Open slot

[Suicideking]

Chalice could be really good in here with youre mana denial plan.  I'm not sure where they fit but i would probably board them. 

Also blocking inkwell forever with factory seems bad considering it has trample.

[Lurker101]

Yeah, the factory plan won't work too well against inkwell. Have you considered Fastbond for the open slot?

[ErkBek]

Also blocking inkwell forever with factory seems bad considering it has trample.

I never noticed Inkwell has trample.....

Guess I'll have to rethink that. I can't think of any lands outside of Glacial Chasm that can deal with Inkwell, and Chasm won't work out in here. Need to change around a lot of cards to adjust for that.

Fastbond seems like a good option. I'll keep that in mind.

[vassago]

What I see from this list that I wouldnt play:

1 crop rotation  I honestly see more than two to be unnecessary
1 llife from the loam  You do not need more than two especially since you have the one of crucible
1 mishra's factory    For reasons already mentioned earlier in this thread
1 Maze of Ith       Edict serves a better purpose, as it can get Inkwell at times

Alos I would like to add that maybe the fourth Bazaar would be  good.  If you are going to play three or four crop rotations I would have more than one rifstone portal, I just think in a pinch that would be the perfect land to sac.  Which brings me to another point, white duals become less needed at this point. Savannah is probably the worst dual land there is, closely matched by plateau.  If you look at the old dawn of the dead mana bases you see something very similar to this: 3 bayou, 3 scrubland, 2 r.portals, 2 windswept heath, 3 bloodstained mire, 1 swamp plus the waste package and artifact mana. I think this mana bases is really solid, and possibly what you may want to use, or something close to it.  Also, I loves me some Zombie Infestation.   It gives me a reason to randomly says "Brains" in a catatonic manner,  which implies how I want the game to end.   

[Guli]

Can we discuss the essence please.

What are the targets for Crop rotation in an aggro control archetype?

I have experimented with Knights and crop in the past. If that has any value for any of you guys than I suggest that Mox Diamond, Riftstone Portal, Bazaar are looked into. You want to create a deck that WANTS to get lands in the grave and while doing so create compensation for the 'loss' which is actually an advantage.

Specific:

Mox Diamond, Bazaar and Crop rotation get lands in the grave. Bazaar also gets life from loam in the grave. You want to dredge and cast loam every turn. You will get in strip/loam pretty fast. There is acceleration to do things in between while you pressure every turn by killing at least 1 land. (If you have a knight up you can kill two lands)
Fish can't keep up with this if you get in tabernacle. Null Rod will still be used and if you don't need it feed it to bazaar that is the cool thing about bazaar engines, you can cycle everything.

Qasali and crop both pump 'Goyf nicely. Knight will always be huge and can be considered as a win condition when it resolves.

4 Null Rod (Yes even with the artifact acceleration you want to play these. Bazaar justifies 4x)

4x Bazaar
4x Mox diamond
4x Riftstone Portal
4x Life from the Loam

4x Knight of the R.
4x Crop Rotation

4x Goyf'

1 Strip
1 The Tabernacle

I like the engine, the beaters, the disruption. Some other lands can be added to give the crop rotation more flexibility. E. Tutor can be used to try things like Aura of Silence or Seals instead of Qasali Pridemage making it more of a tutor/dig deck with HUGE dino's and strong mana denial.

With Mox Diamond and a good mana base black can be added to use duress effects.

*Gaea's Blessing might also be interesting to get back some card back in the deck for example do multiple strips with knight online or crop in hand. Or to get more E tutor targets (Null Rod, Seals, Aura, ...)

@ErkBek
I expect more in depth explaination from you. The arguments you posted are way too obvious and you really didn't need to post twice the same text

Fixed my post. Got a little copy-paste happy I guess. Please be more specific on what you'd like me to address.

-Eric

[Stormanimagus]

Can we discuss the essence please.

What are the targets for Crop rotation in an aggro control archetype?

I have experimented with Knights and crop in the past. If that has any value for any of you guys than I suggest that Mox Diamond, Riftstone Portal, Bazaar are looked into. You want to create a deck that WANTS to get lands in the grave and while doing so create compensation for the 'loss' which is actually an advantage.

Specific:

Mox Diamond, Bazaar and Crop rotation get lands in the grave. Bazaar also gets life from loam in the grave. You want to dredge and cast loam every turn. You will get in strip/loam pretty fast. There is acceleration to do things in between while you pressure every turn by killing at least 1 land. (If you have a knight up you can kill two lands)
Fish can't keep up with this if you get in tabernacle. Null Rod will still be used and if you don't need it feed it to bazaar that is the cool thing about bazaar engines, you can cycle everything.

Qasali and crop both pump 'Goyf nicely. Knight will always be huge and can be considered as a win condition when it resolves.

4 Null Rod (Yes even with the artifact acceleration you want to play these. Bazaar justifies 4x)

4x Bazaar
4x Mox diamond
4x Riftstone Portal
4x Life from the Loam

4x Knight of the R.
4x Crop Rotation

4x Goyf'

1 Strip
1 The Tabernacle

I like the engine, the beaters, the disruption. Some other lands can be added to give the crop rotation more flexibility. E. Tutor can be used to try things like Aura of Silence or Seals instead of Qasali Pridemage making it more of a tutor/dig deck with HUGE dino's and strong mana denial.

With Mox Diamond and a good mana base black can be added to use duress effects.

*Gaea's Blessing might also be interesting to get back some card back in the deck for example do multiple strips with knight online or crop in hand. Or to get more E tutor targets (Null Rod, Seals, Aura, ...)

@ErkBek
I expect more in depth explaination from you. The arguments you posted are way too obvious and you really didn't need to post twice the same text

Fixed my post. Got a little copy-paste happy I guess. Please be more specific on what you'd like me to address.

-Eric

I think that any new Vintage Loam deck is really going to want to run Black for Entomb. I believe you are right though that White adds a great deal of good stuff and Knight Of The Reliquary is one such card.

I'm gonna take a first stab at this deck, and I fully expect to revise this list. I'm very excited to see where people take this concept as I think Loam with Entomb could be a very quick and efficient source of Card Advantage.

A couple things to consider before I post this list:

1). Are cards like Tranquil Thicket worth Consideration?
2). Should Tabernacle be MD?
3). Should Vampiric Tutor and Regrowth be in here, and, for that matter, Demonic Consultation?
4). Do we really need Goyf if we also have Knight?
5). How Many LftL? I'm running 1 right now, but it may become apparent that more are needed.
6). What's the correct land count/manabase?
7). What other toolbox White cards for the MD + SB?
8). I can't believe I'm suggesting this, but IS Null Rod necessary?

Anyway, here's my stab at the deck:

BGw Vintage Loam (Draft 1)

B/G/w Vintage Loam


Land (18):
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Strip Mine
3 Bazaar of Baghdad

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Mox Diamond
4 Null Rod

Creatures (11):
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pride-Mage

Instants (8):
4 Crop Rotation
4 Entomb

Sorceries (11):
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Raven’s Crime
1 Life From The Loam

SB
4 Extirpate
4 Choke
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Diabolic Edict

[Lurker101]

Would Raven's Crime work in here with Loam? You could remove all their lands and then start removing all cards in their hand. Again I would also probably play fastbond and what about Knight of the Reliquary alongside Terravore as a beatdown package instead of goyf. Terravore should get huge fast in a deck like this, it only costs   more than goyf and has trample. It should be bigger than goyf most of the time could probably block Inkwell pretty efficiently.

[TopSecret]

Not that Terravore is a bad idea at all,
but in case people haven't noticed, playing Terravore makes Relic of Progenitus super duper good against this deck,
since instead of just clearing the graveyard and shrinking the Goyfs or Knights,
it straight up kills a beater you spent three mana on.
Just something to consider.

[Stormanimagus]

Also, I don't think this deck can support that many straight beaters without disruptive abilities. The deck already runs almost too many tutors so its density of disruption is kinda low. I think Terravore is really a "win more" card.

[Kiriyuu]

Maze of Ith is a land that can deal with inkwell....but it doesn't produce mana so I have no idea if it's worth playing.

[Tempus]

Maze of Ith is a land that can deal with inkwell....but it doesn't produce mana so I have no idea if it's worth playing.

No it can't. Read Inkwell, then read Maze. One reads "Shroud" the other "target", so that might be a problem

[Kiriyuu]

Ooops sorry, posting before my coffee is usually a mistake, thanks for correcting me

[nineisnoone]

A couple things to consider before I post this list:

1). Are cards like Tranquil Thicket worth Consideration?
2). Should Tabernacle be MD?
3). Should Vampiric Tutor and Regrowth be in here, and, for that matter, Demonic Consultation?
4). Do we really need Goyf if we also have Knight?
5). How Many LftL? I'm running 1 right now, but it may become apparent that more are needed.
6). What's the correct land count/manabase?
7). What other toolbox White cards for the MD + SB?
8). I can't believe I'm suggesting this, but IS Null Rod necessary?

1) I would say no.  They come into play tapped and there are better things to do.
2) I'm not even sure it deserves a slot.  It doesn't impact most decks and is fairly symmetric against decks that it does impact.
3) No to D-Consult, the other cards are okay.  I don't really think they are optimal, but you could do worse.
4) I would take 'Goyf over Knight. 
5) If you are running 4 Crop Rotations, you want all 4.  Especially if you are running full Bazaars.  Crop Rotation is a serious hit to your mana base, especially if you get it countered.  Imo, there's no point in runing Crop Rotation without Crucible or Loam. If you are running Entomb (which you are) I suppose you could get away with it, but imo I'd rather just go straight up Loam.
6) Dunno.  I usually just try out random lists and stick with what I like.
7) White?  Why white?  Personally, I don't really think Knight is good enough. By the time you can play, untap, it's a bit late to do mana disruption.
8) It's never necessary, but I don't see any serious drawback to running it and it works very well with your deck strategy.  Unless you run R and Shaman (another option), I'd recommend it.

Some general comments on some of the lists I've seen here...

Not a big fan of Mox Diamond. 
I think Knight is slow.
Anything less than full 4 Bazaar and full 4 Loam is a mistake.
Red is better than White. (Gorilla Shaman, Ancient Grudge, Barbarian Rings, and for fun Jagged Poppet).
I think Zombie Infestation has a place here (but I'm biased to the card, so take with salt).  Don't forget it gives you an enchantment to pump up your 'Goyfs.
Entomb and Crucible are unnecessary.
Best answer to Inkwell is Goyf + Volrath's Stronghold.  Land + Creature + Sorcery + Instant + Artifact + Enchantment (Zombie Infestation) means Inkwell does 0 damage on an optimal 'Goyf block that you can just recur.

[Guli]

I wonder if we are missing something. Some totally new approach taking advantage of crop rotation. Maybe those Weathered Wayfarer are also interesting with crop rotation.

What I find non evident is to find a good toolbox for crop/knight/Wayfarer. Strip Mine is strong but what else? Mishra's Factory doesn't really cut it in my book. We need an extra spark. We need to find a way to truly make crop a must counter. This will make our duress/cabal/seize bombs.

Isn't their a way to make creatures of permanents so that 'the tabernacle' becomes a kataki on permanents. Something that will really pressure on the opponent making them suffer and win us the game.

I am throwing in idea's to stimulate a good brainstorm session.

[Lurker101]

Isn't their a way to make creatures of permanents so that 'the tabernacle' becomes a kataki on permanents. Something that will really pressure on the opponent making them suffer and win us the game.

I am throwing in idea's to stimulate a good brainstorm session.

March of the machines? Opalescense? Titania's Song?  I don't any of those are very good though they all cost like 4 mana and only 2 are on color and I don't think Opalescense + Tabernacle is going to effect any major decks. Isn't mass removal just better?

[nineisnoone]

Outside of Strip, Waste, and Bazaar, I'm not sure there are any good targets. Personally, I like Volrath's Stronghold but I don't think of that as being a "must counter" play.  Of course, they won't know what you get until it's too late.  You could also get a Petrified Fields to recur your Strip Mine.

[Guli]

I didn't really took the time to look for new innovative idea's with crop rotation. Also you don't want to have too many targets. It is not like you will play massive amounts of crop rotations. Mostly 2 will be common. The question is: will the strip/bazaar be enough to form an archetype. I believe it can be viable but we are not there yet. Support cards like volrath's stronghold and tabernacle seem nice.

[Facade100]

A little curious why these type of lists never run Extirpate in the main.

1. Removing all copies of a non basic seems like it would be really strong. Most decks are nice enough to provide targets with fetch lands.
2. Its information.
3. Its just randomly really good sometimes.

Is it just complete garbage or is it a win more card?

[Cavius The Great]

Not that Terravore is a bad idea at all,
but in case people haven't noticed, playing Terravore makes Relic of Progenitus super duper good against this deck,
since instead of just clearing the graveyard and shrinking the Goyfs or Knights,
it straight up kills a beater you spent three mana on.
Just something to consider.

Doesn't Null Rod stop Relics though?

[nineisnoone]

I didn't really took the time to look for new innovative idea's with crop rotation. Also you don't want to have too many targets. It is not like you will play massive amounts of crop rotations. Mostly 2 will be common. The question is: will the strip/bazaar be enough to form an archetype. I believe it can be viable but we are not there yet. Support cards like volrath's stronghold and tabernacle seem nice.

I would say yes, as I would argue it was perfectly viable pre-unrestrictions.  Dawn of the Dead type decks (aggro + Bazaar) have never been the preferred aggro archetype, but I always thought they were very strong.  Mostly I feel, they fall out of favor overall because people prefer to play with Blue and Blue doesn't fit exceptionally well into the archetype.

But the main drawback is you're not as broken as Ichrorid, but you will get hit somewhat by the same hate cards. 

@Facade
I love Extirpate on a conceptual level, but it's not all that great aside from being a graveyard hate card.  At least in my experience.  In certain builds, you can get away with it, but usually there are better things.

[jaeppel]

One card we arent talking about that could be interesting is Land Tax.  Running tax does tent to take over the mana base.  What i think is maybe running 2x tax, 2x loam.  This really puts huge restraints on the mana base, but 3 colors is possible with say seven basic lands to support tax.  Load hand with basics, bazaar them away, loam in strip/factory/swamp... then play duress and a huge knight.

If grunt is in the deck he can reload the library with basics, just incase you want to tax/bazaar a third time.  Just an idea.