What do people think of Gilded Drake?

[marcb]

I was just wondering what the consensus from the experts is on gilded drake compared to sower of temptation in control decks maybe even MD. The way I see it the advantages of gilded drake are

1) Costs less mana and is a creature so it could more easily be played against stax than sower, and it is less of a concern if drained.
2) Can choose not to exchange a creatures and sacrifice it to remove bridges against Ichorid.
3) If you play bounce like repeal or echoing truth, then you can use it to gain multiple creatures.
4) Allows you to play pyroclasm or firespout in the board without fear of returning a big creature. I could imagine having sower down and pyroclasm in hand and wanting to pyro except that I am afraid to give back tarmogoyf or some other big creature.
5) As the opponent, drawing into creature removal after the exchange resolves doesn't get your creature back.

 The negatives are obvious.

1) It gives your opponent a clock in the form of a 3/3 Flyer.
2) It has less "creature advantage" if I can call it that. You get one new creature, and your opponent has the same number of creatures, where sower gives you two new creatures and decreases your opponents total creatures by 1.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Marc

[BruiZar]

i recently bought a play set, i believe in them. However, everyone I spoke to about gilded drake says they suck because sower is better.

Sower gives you more board position by being able to stop 3 opposing units (blocking 2 with sower + stolen creature). This gives enough time to win.

Gilded Drake doesn't change the board position unless you use bounce (which imo is a very good reason and a strong play. Waterfront bouncer tech!)

ps having maindeck ichorid hate is very nice and relevant because it frees up slots

[Jori]

3) If you play bounce like repeal or echoing truth, then you can use it to gain multiple creatures.

Wrong.  you cannot do this post M10 rules..

IMO, gilded drake is not worth it without that, and I think that honestly even WITH that its only good for casual play.

[BruiZar]

whats the M10 rule that says you can't bounce gilded drake and take another crreature?

[Harlequin]

Yes you can:

When Gilded Drake enters the battlefield, exchange control of Gilded Drake and up to one target creature an opponent controls. If you don't make an exchange, sacrifice Gilded Drake. This ability can't be countered except by spells and abilities. (This effect lasts indefinitely.)

 You can't cheat it as good as you used to be able to, but any bounce effect still works.  You just have to give them the drake for a short period of time.  

So Drake enters the battlefieldm, and target a creature.  Now the ability begins resolving.  Because of "This ability can't be countered except by spells and abilities." clause, making the target illegal is not enough to cause the entire ability to be countered.  It actually is not countered by the illegal or nonexistant target rule.  So if the target is illegal or gone, the net result is Drake gets a one way ticket to the GY (with a minor layover in the battlefeild).  

If the target is still legal -AND- you are able to make the exchange, then they "indefinately" control drake, and you "indefinately" control thier creature.  Now the ability is done resolving and you have thier dude, and they have your drake.  At this moment you can bounce drake back to your hand.  And the "indefinately" effect doesn't go away.  So now you have their guy and they have nothing.


However "This ability can't be countered except by spells and abilities."  Does not prevent Stifle for example from coutering the whole kit and kaboodle.  If stifle happens (from either side of the table) Drake ends up in play on your team, and thier creature stays on the board.

Lastly, because of "up to one target" wording if you play Drake when they don't have a creature, his ability when it resolves sees that no exchange occured - and he is promptly sac'ed.  However you can go turn 1 lotus -> drake -> stifle ability for a 3/3 drake dispite your opponent not controling any creatures.

One last scenario - If you play drake, target a creature, and then before the trigger resolves - you bounce drake while you still control him.... you accomplish a whole lot of nothing.  The trigger fails to "Exchange" and then you fail to "sacrifice" the drake who is no longer in play.  I believe under older errata's you could do this trick to steal thier dude without ever giving them drake.

[Jori]

Yes you can:

When Gilded Drake enters the battlefield, exchange control of Gilded Drake and up to one target creature an opponent controls. If you don't make an exchange, sacrifice Gilded Drake. This ability can't be countered except by spells and abilities. (This effect lasts indefinitely.)

 You can't cheat it as good as you used to be able to, but any bounce effect still works.  You just have to give them the drake for a short period of time.  

So Drake enters the battlefieldm, and target a creature.  Now the ability begins resolving.  Because of "This ability can't be countered except by spells and abilities." clause, making the target illegal is not enough to cause the entire ability to be countered.  It actually is not countered by the illegal or nonexistant target rule.  So if the target is illegal or gone, the net result is Drake gets a one way ticket to the GY (with a minor layover in the battlefeild).  

If the target is still legal -AND- you are able to make the exchange, then they "indefinately" control drake, and you "indefinately" control thier creature.  Now the ability is done resolving and you have thier dude, and they have your drake.  At this moment you can bounce drake back to your hand.  And the "indefinately" effect doesn't go away.  So now you have their guy and they have nothing.


However "This ability can't be countered except by spells and abilities."  Does not prevent Stifle for example from coutering the whole kit and kaboodle.  If stifle happens (from either side of the table) Drake ends up in play on your team, and thier creature stays on the board.

Lastly, because of "up to one target" wording if you play Drake when they don't have a creature, his ability when it resolves sees that no exchange occured - and he is promptly sac'ed.  However you can go turn 1 lotus -> drake -> stifle ability for a 3/3 drake dispite your opponent not controling any creatures.

One last scenario - If you play drake, target a creature, and then before the trigger resolves - you bounce drake while you still control him.... you accomplish a whole lot of nothing.  The trigger fails to "Exchange" and then you fail to "sacrifice" the drake who is no longer in play.  I believe under older errata's you could do this trick to steal thier dude without ever giving them drake.

Im fairly sure this does not work.  Thats how it USED to work...  You play gilded drake, take their creature, bounce gilded drake back to your hand..  this was because "controller" and "owner" were not the same player.  This also meant tokens put into play on an opponents side of the field were "owned" by you, but not "controlled"...  Post changes, "owner" and "controller" are the same person...  So this is what happens now.

You play gilded drake.  Exchange control of drake and one of their creatures.  You are now the OWNER of that creature, they are now the OWNER of gilded drake.. If you bounce drake, it goes to their hand since they are the owner of that creature.

At least thats how I think it is.  If I am wrong feel free to correct me and show me exactly why.

[MirariKnight]

No, the token rules changed but not the owner of permanents. The owner is the person who began the game with the card in their deck. You can't have someone else's card in your hand, so it still works as Harlequin said, as you are the Drake's owner, and your opponent is its controller.

[Jori]

No, the token rules changed but not the owner of permanents. The owner is the person who began the game with the card in their deck. You can't have someone else's card in your hand, so it still works as Harlequin said, as you are the Drake's owner, and your opponent is its controller.

Ah, my bad.  It didn't seem quite right to me either, however all I remember is hearing "controller is now owner", and someone was complaining about their mono blue control deck just got shafted because gilded drake didnt work anymore..  Or something.

[A_Outcast]

the problem is when gilded drake is useful is against fish and/or aggroe.

giving them a 3/3 flyer for their 4/5 or 5/6 is good, unless they drop another goyf and/or remove the goyf.  they still have that flyer, the thing is this time you cant chump block it with confidants to buy you time, wereas with sower you can still keep swinging in the air to kill them.

id say that drake is situationally better then sower (ichorid), however in the long run sower is probobly superior.

plus there are much more effective anti-ichorid cards.

[BruiZar]

I view Gilded Drake more as a short term control card that gives long term advantages. With a Waterfront Bouncer (or Repeal/Echoing Truth) the Gilded Drake can completely disable creature strategies. If you're looking for other viable creature control Also, I believe gilded drake is much stornger in a stax filled meta where you can either choose big robots or utility for only 2 mana (dodging thorns). 4 mana is really steep with tangle wires, smokestacks and sphere. Alternatively, you can use Karn/Shaman to gain a strategic advantage before all your moxen are dead, plus smokestack can send drake back to your yard.

I personally like Mind Harness.



It costs nothing, takes goyf, welder, oath's big dragon and the occasional gorilla shaman.

[marcb]

@Bruizar-Thanks for all the good feedback. What do you mean by short-term control card? I think of Mind Harness as short-term control since it has a cumulative upkeep, so you cannot maintain control for long. To me Gilded Drake would be the opposite.

 Also, I would like to hear more about assessing gilded drake in the current meta vs an unknown meta. Bruizar does a good job of highlighting the casting cost as an advantage in a Stax filled meta. It's already been mentioned that the sacrifice ability makes it strong in an Ichorid meta. In a fish dominated meta, I would imagine that sower is better because against fish you are often facing several creatures at once. As a control player, you probably don't have much down to block with (D. Confidant or Trinket Mage at best), so the ability of sower to net you two creatures plus removing one of your opponents is better than simply exchanging. On the other hand, fish often plays cheap creature removal, so you're likely to spend 4 mana only to have your sower removed by a StP or Smother. If, on the other hand, you're playing against Oath, then Gilded Drake is much better. It's unlikely that Sower can be played fast enough to matter against Oath as compared to Gilded Drake, which can be cast as easily as Oath itself. Finally, I'm not sure in a control mirror whether I like Gilded Drake or Sower.

 To sum up I would argue that Gilded Drake is better against Stax, Oath, and Ichorid, while Sower is probably better against Fish and Aggro in general. I'm still undecided against control. The questions I now propose are:

1) Does the above analysis make sense or do you think that I have wrongly concluded which card is better against which deck?
2) Which card do you prefer against control?
3) If you were going to play 1-2 of either of these cards main, which would it be and why?
4) If you were preparing for an unknown meta, which card would you choose?
5) What would you choose for a big tournament in the current meta?

[Bone]

May perhaps be a little offtopic but I can't deceide what to run in my merfolks SB. Right now I run 3 Threads of Disloyalty (goyf, confidant, welder + +). But I am interrested in testing out 3 Sower of Temptation and now perhaps 3 Gilded Drake. How do you feel about the differences between Sower and Threads?

[BruiZar]

Gilded Drake is a short term control card in the sense that it hits play early in the game due to its lower casting cost. A turn 1 Gilded Drake is pretty easy to pull off with artifact acceleration. However, the potential for long term abuse is greater than with Sower of Temptation.

I believe the most natural fits for Gilded Drake are decks like 4 repeal-Shaymora. The reason is that you can dedicate minimal slots on creature control but steal multiple creatures. Sower of Temptation can't be recycled the way Gilded Drake can.

Sower of Temptation is a long term card because it is slow (4 mana) yet it has the potential of quickly balancing out the existing board positions, just like Balance does. Having to deal with Sower of Temptation AND your own creature provides can provide a quicker clock, but the problem is that creature removal will nullify your efforts to control the board. At least with Gilded Drake, you force your opponent to spend removal on cards they played in the first place. He's fighting himself rather than you. Like you reiterated, Sower is even slower because of stax, doesn't do anything against ichorid, and comes down quiet late against oath.

Mind Harness - Mind Harness may look expensive at first glance, but you have to understand that a Mind Harness with a cumulative upkeep of 2 costs just as much as sower of temptation, BUT it can be played turn one and the cost is spread out over turns. This means you get almost the same action as Sower of Temptation at a higher speed than Gilded Drake. Due to color restrictions I'd only see this in sideboards or some weird rogue painter deck. I personally favor gilded drake for its ability to become sort of a 'creature engine' against aggro decks which Mind Harness nor Sower of Temptation can do.

1) I think that analysis is sort of right, view my above comments for more explanation.

2) Against control I would definately want Gilded Drake. Sower of Temptation is just going to eat a bounce spell and before you know it, Inkwell is pounding your face. Contol decks often carry thoughtseize or REBs to counter Sower of Temptation coming back. With Gilded Drake, he has to bounce his Inkwell (through H.Recall or Rebuild) which means he can't play it again due to the high casting cost.

3) If your deck can support it, I'd play Gilded Drake. Rather run a creature engine that can steal creatures for 1 then play a   creature that doesn't have special synergies with other cards.

4) Sower of Temptation, because you don't know how much Fish you're going to run into. If you get in a fish heavy meta, Gilded Drake is gonna suck UNLESS you have a fish build with Waterfront Bouncer.

5) I would have to test more.

[A_Outcast]

2) Against control I would definately want Gilded Drake. Sower of Temptation is just going to eat a bounce spell and before you know it, Inkwell is pounding your face. Contol decks often carry thoughtseize or REBs to counter Sower of Temptation coming back. With Gilded Drake, he has to bounce his Inkwell (through H.Recall or Rebuild) which means he can't play it again due to the high casting cost.

Gilded cant take inkwell.

[marcb]

@Bruizer- I have to thank you again for the insightful comments. I agree with everything you said. Again you reiterated that unlike sower, Gilded Drake actually has synergy with other cards you might find in your deck (particularly 4 Repeal Shaymora). What I can't figure out and the reason that I created this thread in the first place is that Gilded Drake hasn't been played main or sb in over a year, while sower has been main decked in some very recent decks, and several decks have played both sower and threads in the sb. Given the interesting discussion which hasn't ruled out the viability of gilded drake, I can't figure out why it's not being played or even tested. Have others done a much better job of assessing the role of gilded drake in the current meta, or has it been temporarily overlooked?

[BruiZar]

2) Against control I would definately want Gilded Drake. Sower of Temptation is just going to eat a bounce spell and before you know it, Inkwell is pounding your face. Contol decks often carry thoughtseize or REBs to counter Sower of Temptation coming back. With Gilded Drake, he has to bounce his Inkwell (through H.Recall or Rebuild) which means he can't play it again due to the high casting cost.

Gilded cant take inkwell.

You're right, read DSC in that case. Inkwell still needs to be answered with Recall/Rebuild I guess.

Also, an important consideration to keep in mind is that Sower of Temptation has the same converted mana cost as Gilded Drake + Mana Drain.

I think Gilded Drake is just overlooked. It seems like creature control  standards have established in the form of Threads and Sower. I think the popularity of Threads is due to bugfish's succes and decks that needed a way to deal with creatures just sort of copied that.  The popularity of Sower is somewhat understandable, since you need removal to get your creature back. Otherwise its coming back the next turn ready to steal again. THeoretically, your opponent can also use his own bounce to send the creature you stole back to his hand. In reality that doesn't really occur often since

A) it depends on the matchup, I've never seen a workshop player repeal a juggernaut.

B) If they're not running echoing truth, It depends on the creatures converted mana cost because repeal is the only viable bounce left. Chain of Vapor allows you to copy and get your drake back too so that doesn't solve anything for your opponent.