Possible NYC Power 9 Event?

[Stormanimagus]

I just posted this in the Advanced Vintage Forum, but someone there PMed me and told me to post it elsewhere for more response so I figured the Community Forum might be a better idea. Here's what I posted there:

I just finished having a long discussion with Marske about the future of Vintage in the States and he brought up a good point: Why are Euro events so often able to attract 30-40 + people and American Vintage events only seem to get 10-20? It's a sobering truth, but right now the Europeans are kicking our ASSES on attendance and general Vintage PR and TO's in the states are doing very little to keep the scene alive and vibrant here.

Think about it: The last bastion of good, New England Vintage, IMHO, is the Stratfordbury event, and now even THAT event is losing some hype and prestige.

I feel bad for Ray Robilliard that the venue in Stratford was competing for space at the store with some Yu-gi-oh tournament the day of the event last March. Large scale Vintage events in the North-East are losing some of their prestige because of such shenanigans and I fear that the smaller scale "Hadley" "JHU" "Myriad" and "N.Y.S.E" type events are losing some of their pull because the players who go to the events don't feel as if they are preparing for anything bigger.

So what's the solution? Well Marske offered my some wonderful advice on how to create monthly, or every-other-month event that would, in theory, attract a larger crowd and give the New England Vintage player scene another large event to look forward to. I disagreed slightly with him on doing that often, but I think I could initially compromise with his idea and do it on a quarterly basis for the year.

The idea is this: The thing that used to make Waterbury so damn cool was, in large part, the prestige. The event was at a large hotel and it just felt more adult than many events feel today. Don't get me wrong, Ray has done a wonderful job in Stratford at rounding people up from far and wide to still get a 120-180 turn out from year to year, but the venue just isn't that great compared to Waterbury and he knows it. My idea is to create another venue, in NYC that can eventually become like another Waterbury.

Now I know that the price to rent things in NYC is quite a bit higher than elsewhere, but Marske also pointed out to me that this can be overcome with inviting dealers to event to help sponsor it. With M10's popularity I don't see this as being a huge problem. There is a lot of Magic product to be sold right now.

So, like Martin Luther King, I have a dream. . .

I would like to know from all you TMDers first, what the interest would be in holding a quarterly Vintage event in NYC that would, most likely, be for a full set of power. Heck, if the response was good enough we could even go the route of the extreme ICBM open and do a DOUBLE POWER event over 2 days so that players wouldn't make the trip to NYC for just one day. I have been helping Jostin Rodriguez to create a decent small Vintage scene in NYC at JHU and our attendance last week was 14. I'm not sure how many N.Y.S.E players overlap with ours, but that might add another 10-20. So let's assume 30 total players to offer from those 2 venues. To really make a full power event possible I'd guess we'd need 60 + for the TO to break even, but what I really need to know from you all is, would there be an interest in such an event?

I'd want to swank it up a bit and perhaps hold it at the marriot in NYC

http://www.marriott.com/hotels/hotel-information/restaurant/nycmq-new-york-marriott-marquis/

but I'm certainly open to other venue options if they are economically sound without sacrificing too much the quality of the venue.

I realize that the Vintage community is aging. They don't want to be treated like Children, but they still want the chance to hang out, play some cards, and just generally have good times.

I'm certainly no expert TO, but I know what a good time looks like, and I'd also like to pitch the possibility of side events to the main event at something like this. Here are my ideas for that:

1. Mox side event part-way through the day
2. Type 4
3. Casual Emperor Team Magic
4. Drafts of older sets or Cube
5. Magic Trivia
6. "Design A Card" contest.

#6 might be stupid, but I've thought it might be really cool, to get the best Vintage minds in on creating new card tech for a while.

Now, the other big thing would be PROXIES for such an event. Now I'd also like to take a vote on this one, but I'd be amiable to reducing the proxy limit to 10 or even 7 if people weren't opposed to such a change. It would be interesting to do this and then give a mox or some equivalent prize to the highest finishing UNPOWERED deck (note: not 0 proxy as I'm sure that that prize would go to someone who is already in the top 8), but I can also see how that would be an unpopular choice as the TO so I'd like you all to weigh in on that one. I'd really like to keep the event to 10 proxies or less, but obviously I'd be catering to the players who'd be making the trip down.

All right guys, that's about all I got for now. Let this thread be a couple things:

1.) A thumbs up, thumbs down for whether you think it'd work and whether you'd be in if such an event could be organized.
2.) A Forum for posting your thoughts on how to refine and improve such an event
3.) A Forum for communication and debate

Let is NOT be these things:

1.) A Forum for bashing and trolling
2.) A Forum for whining and complaining.

Thanks for your consideration guys and I hope to hear from you all with opinions!

Peace,

-Storm

P.S- PM me with any personal concerns any time. If you want my e-mail to contact me it is noahsmith55@gmail.com

P.P.S- if you have an idea for a cool name for the event, put it in the running as I want this to have a name that'll stick well. "Waterbury" worked for Waterbury because it was the first of its kind, but I think this event would need a more creative name. The fallback plan would be something like "The NYC Power9" but I'd like to see if we can come up with something better.

[Demonic Attorney]

The AVF is designed for strategy-related discussion.  Posts like this, about community issues like interest in major tournaments, are better-suited for Community.

As to the substance of your post, I would love to have quarterly major Vintage events in the Northeast again.  I think that this was (more or less) the schedule for Waterbury back in the day.  I do want to point out, though, that having a tournament in NYC proper might complicate matters related to attendance.  Specifically, it's extremely expensive to get food/lodging in NYC, and even arranging transportation there and back isn't always easy, particularly if people are planning to drive.

It's possible that the availability of public transportation might offset any difficulties related to traveling there and back, but there's still the question of cost.  I'd just try to get a better sense from the community about how much of a problem that could be.

[Tha Gunslinga]

A full set of power is $3000 or so in moderately played condition.  A venue such as the Marriott would be at least $500-1000, probably more.  You would need over 100 people to break even, unless you charged over $30 per person, which is possible but would hurt local attendance.

If you have any questions about this sort of thing, feel free to PM me.  I'd love to go to something like this.

[Smmenen]

I do want to point out, though, that having a tournament in NYC proper might complicate matters related to attendance.  Specifically, it's extremely expensive to get food/lodging in NYC, and even arranging transportation there and back isn't always easy, particularly if people are planning to drive.

I think this is a real concern.   Not to mention, I HATE flying into LaGuardia.

[Stormanimagus]

I do want to point out, though, that having a tournament in NYC proper might complicate matters related to attendance.  Specifically, it's extremely expensive to get food/lodging in NYC, and even arranging transportation there and back isn't always easy, particularly if people are planning to drive.

I think this is a real concern.   Not to mention, I HATE flying into LaGuardia.

Are there any swanky locations in the 5 boroughs that would be more conducive? I'm thinking the Bronx might be possible as it is the northernmost borough and might be easier for players trying to get in and avoid traffic/ridiculous parking prices of manhattan. I'd have to look into possible group housing rates for such an event. This is why a hotel is such a nice idea though I think. I think Waterbury had it right way back in the day and I'm not quite sure why it was moved to be honest (I seem to recall Ray saying that the hotel was not pleased with players respect for the space when I was there *cough cough*).

A hotel venue just seems to solve so many problems. I'm not 100% sure you can get group rates, but, if you book far enough in advance I betcha you could.

Plus, if it was in the Bronx we could give it an awesome Title like "Magic's Rumble In The Bronx".

[Sporkcore]

The only thing about the Bronx is that if someone were to drive up, the Bronx is not a place that you want to be lost in.

An event like this might be easier to hold on Long Island. There is a nice Marriott in Uniondale that has a couple of conference rooms that could be perfect for an event like this. http://www.marriott.com/hotels/hotel-deals/nycli-long-island-marriott-hotel-and-conference-center/

[T00L]

I would love to go to something like this but I think the logistics of having something in NYC would be a nightmare. If you can make it happen though i'd be sure to attend.

[nataz]

Don't hold it in NY City, hold it in a commuter area. I'm not wicked familar with NY, but there must be somewhere that business people stay that is a fairly close commute. That's one of the reasons why Waterbury was nice, it was big enough to cater to a nice event, but far enough from the major regional cities not to be super expensive. You want a nice hotel, not an expensive venue.

Ray will have to confirm/deny this, but I always thought one of the reasons we had such a sweet deal at the Waterbury events was that he used to work there (or knew someone who worked there, or had some kind of connection or something).

[Prospero]

Storm,

If you had told me that I wouldn't get Jostin, Ici, and seven of the other people who said they'd show and didn't, I'd have told you that my event would have been lucky to get 15 people. 

We had 31. 

Blue Bell tournaments in the last year or so were averaging well above 40 players per event.  The smallest Blue Bell I've ever seen had 33.  I saw several that cracked 50.  I can't speak for New England, but I don't see these 10-20 man tournaments of which you speak.  JHU is different, and not just because the employees turned us away with bad information the day of the event - guaranteeing a cash prize is good, but it's on a Sunday and I think that people do come out to play for a Mox. 

If the event doesn't conflict with another Vintage event, (or something else that gamers are into - i.e. the Warcraft release that killed Travis's attendance at TravisConII) if the prize support is worth it (70% or so of the intake at least) and if the event is well run you should be able to consistently get a solid showing.  I don't know how many people are going to show up for my 8/29 event, but with everything that I've heard I think that we're going to break 31 easily.

If I made the effort to go out and play in a tournament then I played to win - I didn't look at events as primers for the larger events.  So I don't know that the local events don't have 'prestige'.  I'm going to fight to win the Blue Bell Player of the Year race, and not just because I want free entry into Mike's tournaments for a year.  I'd like to finish well in the TMD Player of the Year race as well. 

New York's Vintage community has been a collection of disparate elements for an exceptionally long time.  The first step that you would have to take would be to bring them all together, to create a base of support for an event like that. 

I can only tell you what I believe and what I intend on doing.  I think that the best way to do that is to have a monthly, or near monthly, event that would draw interest into a larger event.  If I can manage to create a solid enough player base to support monthly Mox tournaments I'll run a Lotus event, potentially in October.  If I can get 60 or so players for a Lotus tournament then I'll look to run something bigger after the holidays.

I don't think that a T/O could afford to run a large event like that in New York City - especially because the T/O's that we have around here aren't dealers outside of Nick Coss.  They're not making money on anything but attendance if they're making any money at all.  I would aim for somewhere close to a major highway as close to N.Y.C. as possible.  I think that you could find a hotel that would be convenient for $500 or so on the day.  Still, you're asking a T/O to lay out nearly $4,000 before he sees a dime in return.  And you're asking him to risk running a tremendous loss. 

Everybody loves the big events, but I don't think you can just schedule one and expect people to come.  I think you have to build towards it.

And I would absolutely avoid the Bronx at all costs.  Having been to more than a few Yankee games I can tell you that the last thing in the world that you want to be doing is wandering around the Bronx, lost. 

[Stormanimagus]

Storm,

If you had told me that I wouldn't get Jostin, Ici, and seven of the other people who said they'd show and didn't, I'd have told you that my event would have been lucky to get 15 people. 

We had 31. 

Blue Bell tournaments in the last year or so were averaging well above 40 players per event.  The smallest Blue Bell I've ever seen had 33.  I saw several that cracked 50.  I can't speak for New England, but I don't see these 10-20 man tournaments of which you speak.  JHU is different, and not just because the employees turned us away with bad information the day of the event - guaranteeing a cash prize is good, but it's on a Sunday and I think that people do come out to play for a Mox. 

If the event doesn't conflict with another Vintage event, (or something else that gamers are into - i.e. the Warcraft release that killed Travis's attendance at TravisConII) if the prize support is worth it (70% or so of the intake at least) and if the event is well run you should be able to consistently get a solid showing.  I don't know how many people are going to show up for my 8/29 event, but with everything that I've heard I think that we're going to break 31 easily.

If I made the effort to go out and play in a tournament then I played to win - I didn't look at events as primers for the larger events.  So I don't know that the local events don't have 'prestige'.  I'm going to fight to win the Blue Bell Player of the Year race, and not just because I want free entry into Mike's tournaments for a year.  I'd like to finish well in the TMD Player of the Year race as well. 

New York's Vintage community has been a collection of disparate elements for an exceptionally long time.  The first step that you would have to take would be to bring them all together, to create a base of support for an event like that. 

I can only tell you what I believe and what I intend on doing.  I think that the best way to do that is to have a monthly, or near monthly, event that would draw interest into a larger event.  If I can manage to create a solid enough player base to support monthly Mox tournaments I'll run a Lotus event, potentially in October.  If I can get 60 or so players for a Lotus tournament then I'll look to run something bigger after the holidays.

I don't think that a T/O could afford to run a large event like that in New York City - especially because the T/O's that we have around here aren't dealers outside of Nick Coss.  They're not making money on anything but attendance if they're making any money at all.  I would aim for somewhere close to a major highway as close to N.Y.C. as possible.  I think that you could find a hotel that would be convenient for $500 or so on the day.  Still, you're asking a T/O to lay out nearly $4,000 before he sees a dime in return.  And you're asking him to risk running a tremendous loss. 

Everybody loves the big events, but I don't think you can just schedule one and expect people to come.  I think you have to build towards it.

And I would absolutely avoid the Bronx at all costs.  Having been to more than a few Yankee games I can tell you that the last thing in the world that you want to be doing is wandering around the Bronx, lost. 

Prospero, Thank you for the insight. And no, I certainly don't plan on shelling out $4,000 + dollars without a decent certainty that I'll break even. I'm not really a TO persee anyway. Jostin and I just wanted to try to get NYC Vintage up and working again.

I'd love to meet you so Perhaps I'll try to make it to your August 29th event on Long Island. Then perhaps we can discuss these concerns and ideas for the future in person.

Again, thank you for taking part in this important discussion and debate for the future of Vintage in the NYC Long-Island area.

-Storm

[Prospero]

Storm,

If you had told me that I wouldn't get Jostin, Ici, and seven of the other people who said they'd show and didn't, I'd have told you that my event would have been lucky to get 15 people. 

We had 31. 

Blue Bell tournaments in the last year or so were averaging well above 40 players per event.  The smallest Blue Bell I've ever seen had 33.  I saw several that cracked 50.  I can't speak for New England, but I don't see these 10-20 man tournaments of which you speak.  JHU is different, and not just because the employees turned us away with bad information the day of the event - guaranteeing a cash prize is good, but it's on a Sunday and I think that people do come out to play for a Mox. 

If the event doesn't conflict with another Vintage event, (or something else that gamers are into - i.e. the Warcraft release that killed Travis's attendance at TravisConII) if the prize support is worth it (70% or so of the intake at least) and if the event is well run you should be able to consistently get a solid showing.  I don't know how many people are going to show up for my 8/29 event, but with everything that I've heard I think that we're going to break 31 easily.

If I made the effort to go out and play in a tournament then I played to win - I didn't look at events as primers for the larger events.  So I don't know that the local events don't have 'prestige'.  I'm going to fight to win the Blue Bell Player of the Year race, and not just because I want free entry into Mike's tournaments for a year.  I'd like to finish well in the TMD Player of the Year race as well. 

New York's Vintage community has been a collection of disparate elements for an exceptionally long time.  The first step that you would have to take would be to bring them all together, to create a base of support for an event like that. 

I can only tell you what I believe and what I intend on doing.  I think that the best way to do that is to have a monthly, or near monthly, event that would draw interest into a larger event.  If I can manage to create a solid enough player base to support monthly Mox tournaments I'll run a Lotus event, potentially in October.  If I can get 60 or so players for a Lotus tournament then I'll look to run something bigger after the holidays.

I don't think that a T/O could afford to run a large event like that in New York City - especially because the T/O's that we have around here aren't dealers outside of Nick Coss.  They're not making money on anything but attendance if they're making any money at all.  I would aim for somewhere close to a major highway as close to N.Y.C. as possible.  I think that you could find a hotel that would be convenient for $500 or so on the day.  Still, you're asking a T/O to lay out nearly $4,000 before he sees a dime in return.  And you're asking him to risk running a tremendous loss. 

Everybody loves the big events, but I don't think you can just schedule one and expect people to come.  I think you have to build towards it.

And I would absolutely avoid the Bronx at all costs.  Having been to more than a few Yankee games I can tell you that the last thing in the world that you want to be doing is wandering around the Bronx, lost. 

Prospero, Thank you for the insight. And no, I certainly don't plan on shelling out $4,000 + dollars without a decent certainty that I'll break even. I'm not really a TO per se anyway. Jostin and I just wanted to try to get NYC Vintage up and working again.

I'd love to meet you so Perhaps I'll try to make it to your August 29th event on Long Island. Then perhaps we can discuss these concerns and ideas for the future in person.

Again, thank you for taking part in this important discussion and debate for the future of Vintage in the NYC Long-Island area.

-Storm

Even back when Neutral Ground actually ran sanctioned Vintage events many of the players came from Long Island and northern New Jersey.  I don't doubt that there are dedicated Vintage players in Manhattan, I just don't think that N.Y.C. Vintage is ever going to be big because I don't know that it ever has been big.  Losing Neutral Ground didn't help - there isn't one set place in Manhattan where you can draw new players into the format and keep the old ones playing.

I'm biased because I live here, but I think that Long Island is the future of NY Vintage.  We have a solid base of players, if everybody from just Long Island showed up for our events we would have a base of 25-30 from which to work.  If we could draw the city guys and some of the Jersey/Connecticut guys I think we could have a really good showing each month.

I'd love to see you make it out to my event on the 29th.  Everything that I've heard so far leads me to believe that we're going to have quite a few people, as some of the Philly area guys are going to be making it, some of the Jersey guys are making it, and it looks like almost all the N.Y. guys will be able to come and play.  Like I said, I had 31 at the last one - and I would imagine that we're going to break that with this months event.  We could certainly discuss things then.