Scroll Rack as a draw engine in aggro control

[Guli]

Scroll rack was successfully utilized in parfait and I never asked myself the question if it would be possible to use the scroll rack and land tax engine in other fish decks with additional colors. Recently I took up the challenge and with my experience with aggro control design I tested a couple of routes with various colors. The questions I want to ask in this thread are:

Are there people who use this powerful draw engine at the cost of null rod?
Did you try out this engine? If so, what are your thoughts about it?

I played with skullclamps, bazaars and dark confidants. I even tried TFK to get the brainstorm effect. Aggro control goes for consistency but sometimes ends up with two of the same cards. For example two gaddock teeg or canonist. I always wanted to cycle my cards or replace copies with something i did not cast yet. With Skullclamp you could clam away one of your dual creatures and get in new ones. With bazaar you could replace dead cards with useful ones. In a deck with all kinds of creatures with all kinds of abilities brainstorm effect is good. Scroll rack is perfect if you want to get rid of copy cards, and with land tax you can generate a deadly amount of card advantage making you virtually indestructible in the mid game. I have this principle, no null rod means no mana denial strategy. This thread is opened to explore the direct spell denial or direct pressure strategies. Plenty of other threads out there to post the indirect spell denial strategies by means of mana denial (null rod).

Mox diamond is an important accelerator with land tax and scroll rack. It enables turn 1 canonist or another disruptive card. With additional acceleration you can count on 2 mana turn 1 and 3 mana on turn 2. It is however crucial to have main deck answers to null rod and time vault.

The biggest hosers are white/green/red in my opinion:

Gaddock Teeg
Ethersworn Canonist
True Believer
Magus of the Moon

Tarmogoyf is an option but he often ends up 2/3 and does nothing. Wild Nacatl is nice but isn't fat enough. All the mana you will have from acceleration can be pumped into figure of destiny. It is a nice clock in a deck like this. Will come in as 4/4 most of the time and can break the fish match up mid game. But there is another sneaky 1 drop that will make all the other creatures stick AND function as a land tax enabler when they refuse to make a land drop to stop your scroll/tax engine. Kinda like zuran orb did in parfait, sylvan safekeeper is a good way to answer a lot of issues.

An example list:

Draw and recycle:
3 Scroll Rack
3 Land Tax

Spell denial, global effects:
4 Magus of the moon
4 True Believer
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Gaddock TeeG

Support, protection and muscle:
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Sylvan Safekeeper

Artifact (& enchantment) destruction
4 Qasali PrideMage
2 Ancient Grudge

Acceleration:
1 Black Lotus
4 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby

Lands:
4 Plains
3 Forest
3 Mountain
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath

I would like to get the discussion going on Scroll Rack. Please don't dismiss or change the subject because of null rod.

Share away,

greetz Guli

[Pizzatog]

It seems to me that new fetchlands are very good with a scroll rack engine; I'd want to maximize the shuffle effects to cut down dependance on land tax... so more fetches?

[TracerBullet]

It seems to me that new fetchlands are very good with a scroll rack engine; I'd want to maximize the shuffle effects to cut down dependance on land tax... so more fetches?

It's simple tremendously slow and cumbersome.  You think to yourself "Hey, great, 1 mana for 3 new cards per turn... 3 mana, +2 card combo investment... plus mana inferiority... plus bad cards to make mana inferiority happen... plus now have to play lots of basics.... plus no Null Rod/disruption for the first 3 turns"... and that's when you remember that it's bad.  Just too slow, too disruptable, too inefficient even when it works.

[TrollMcSmash]

   I've experimented before with Scroll-Tax in aggro, because as a fan of parfait the engine is always a lot of fun to play. I'll tinker around with the idea more that you brought it up, but a few preliminary thoughts.

   First, it's not going to play the aggressive mana denial plan of most other aggro decks. That hinges on the rod, strip / waste, and we don't really have the space nor consistency to run either (except for perhaps stifle, which is a thought). Though basics are "inferior", in all actuality that opens the door for all kinds of asymmetrical shenanigans. There's Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, all as you suggested. Back to Basics in a similar vein. Aura of Silence acts as a nice anti vault / key, plus it hurts their artifact mana and can kill a sphinx in a heart-beat, though getting the three mana could be a bit tricky.
 
    I'm not sure I find the fetches all that useful in a deck like this, though I'll test it, it's not something I considered. It seems to me if you're going to go scroll-tax route, go for it all the way with the basics. The fetches give you a shuffle effect, but there are other ways to achieve that (Trinket Mage, tutors galore).

    The second thing I'd mention, is something in line with Tracer. In my experience Tax worked AMAZINGLY in parfait, but parfait is a very different animal from aggro. As minimalist as parfait was, it managed to control the game inches at a time. But Tax IS a slow engine. The aggro-mirror match would be brutal because you lack their huge goyf, get beaten over the head by rod, and the pathmages can kill our key engine right out from under you. Even against Tezz variants, if you meet turn 1 force you could be in trouble. Or if they combo out while you are just starting to get online.

     I'm not trying to bash the idea at all, mind you. Those are all just weaknesses any deck built around tax is going to have to face. Some of these are problems ANY deck faces (turn 1 force is kind of expected; Vault + Key is a pain for everyone). Some of these are perhaps a bit exaggerated (bounce and Qasali aside, there's not many answers to enchantments. Then again, bounce and Qasali may be all you need). For answering the tempo problem, can you think of any other effective tempo hosers aside from the Canonist? The normal ones like Remora don't seem to fit this deck at all, and the weird / abnormal / old school ones like stasis are... well weird, old school, and generally not played for a reason. In the testing I did awhile ago, it was this asymmetrical tempo problem that proved to be the biggest problem I never managed to solve satisfactorily.

      I'll go back to the drawing board and pull out my attempt at putting scroll-tax in a bomberman build and get back to you. I'll also test the list you posted and give you some more specific feedback.

[Harlequin]

I would agree with others when it come to tax itself. However you might want to try life from the loam instead of tax. Its similar to tax in that you activate rack, put back 3 lands.  Then dredge loam for your next draw, which clears your topdeck, and gives you tergets for loam.   Its more mana intensive but you gain the benefit of running lots on non-basics (like strip).  Also you get to make a land drop every turn, instead of needing to stay 1 land down from your opponent.  Lastly you could run something like entomb or intuition to enable your engine. 

Its certianly fine to test other ideas... But at some point, you have to justify the loss AND vulnerability to null rod.

[shroomy2dope]

i used to run scroll rack and land tax in my 5-color magic.  a lot of the cards that aided the combo were too bulky and slow for vintage play though some of the biggest kickers were: sterling grove, seismic assault, tithe, balance, and true believer. I reall played mono white enchantment and won by giving my opponent too many threats to counter while keeping quick G/W artifact enchantment hate in my hand if you're interested i'll dig up the list and pm you, (it's too large and irrelevant to post). it might shed some light on things. 

[RecklessEmbermage]

You may have seen this recent thread of mine:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39004.0

I found (like others told me) that scroll rack and aggro don't go together. You simply cannot compete on tempo, while landing and activating rack. Keeping tax active also hurts the tempo game considerably.
So play the control role whenever you can, even if you pack creatures.

Orim's chant could give you time to land your lock pieces.

Jotun grunt has strong synergy with the engine, refilling the deck with business cards and the odd sacrificed or discarded basic to keep tax going. I'd use 3 of these and not bother with other pure beaters.

6-8 basics is enough to feed 2X land tax. Being greedier than that is a bit senseless. 1-2 savannahs would help the consistency of your manabase immensely. And yes, of course, fetchlands is good here.

Magus looks interesting. It's a shame it doesn't really go with path to exile.

[BruiZar]

I used to play this list:

Engine:
4x Land Tax
3x Scroll Rack

Beats:
3x Jotun Grunt
4x Meddling Mage

Control:
4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
4x Daze
3x Rushing River
3x Abolish
2x Path to Exile
2x Forbid

Bombs:
1x Gush
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Balance
1x Brainstorm

Mana Base
4x Mox Diamond
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Strip Mine
3x Tundra
3x Flooded Strand
5x Plains
3x Island

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37491.0

In hindsight, I think I might look for more fast disruption. Take a look at the thread to see what I came up. I ended up adding Tinker/Leviathan to the list.

[Guli]

I like to name Null Rod as a repressive card while Scroll Rack is a progressive card. You can try to play the tempo game every time but you have to accept that you won't be doing a lot of searching and digging. You rely simply in what you draw and if you run a couple of tutors you can search. When I look at the card function I can see it fit in decks that use consistency. But that is not enough. Otherwise you could run in in shop decks. You also need the ability to run a lot of basic lands without the risk of getting mana screwed. In fact I find it hard to get mana screwed in a deck that uses land tax, mox diamond and a lot of fectchlands. On top of that your mana base is rock solid making your matchup against manadenial.dec comfortable. You don't need the ability to search and dig in the early turns. You only need it after you start seeing copies of cards that hit the board already or cards you know that won't change the board position. You simply recycle relatively bad cards and with land tax you get even more out of it of course. You will get more interaction this way, more control without compromising the strong early consistent pressure. People underestimate the ability to give shroud to your canonist, teeg, believer, magus moon and so on... Tinker and Rebuild are both restricted cards. My example list doesn't really deal with these two main threats. But that is oké, I can fall back on the argument that it was for illustrative purposes that I included a list.

The thread is about Scroll Rack, a way to renew, refill and improve your hand in the mid game. Let me answer on the feedback now:

@Bruizar
Your list seems very controlish and very little aggro to me. I am sure the scroll/tax engine will work but don't you think that so many blue and targeted removal is my style. I try to hide the effect of counters/removal in my creatures. Magus of the moon can act as 1 big forbid. But I think it is good that you bring in your list, but can you also share your experience with scroll rack with and without land tax... Would you then say that it is a good tool for consistent (4x 4x 4x ...) aggro control to bring in an element of hand quality?

@ReclesEmbermage
I was seeing scroll rack more as a tool for the mid game. I would still play out your key spells first and follow it up with scroll rack/tax when you can slip it in or when you feel like the cards in your hand are not going to help you against a specific matchup. The idea is to go for the dig and search (and this could sometimes mean an entire new hand of 7 cards). Also land tax is a card that can be so painful for decks that try to deny you mana, land is always welcome then. No compromise on the aggro/beat plan, just instead of mana denial you go recycle, draw, dig to find your answers that way.

@Harlequin
I love the land tax, it has synergy with mox diamon, scroll rack, magus of the moon, sylvan safekeeper, actually it is just great to get all your three colors which means mana fixing.

I played a lot of beat versions. We all like to either draw or tutor/dig even if we play beats. Brainstorm used to be an important fixer of mana/quality in WU fish. If scroll rack can help to find those artifact destruction cards then you can still answer time vault. The creatures I suggested in my example list are all big business except for safekeeper and figure of destiny. But those are not really seen as creatures in my eyes. More as protection and keeping board control in the mirror.

Cards that come to my mind are Vexing Shusher but I would use him in side against mana drain. Also the ancient problem of tinker. But that can be solved these days. Rebuild isn't AS effective because it only removes 1 threat, canonist (and that is not even a card that was meant to deny a win condition, more to slow the game down until the real guys enter the field). If I was suggesting aether vial I would be more worried about rebuild. The idea I am suggestion doesn't lose time on turn 1, it plays out canonist, teeg or believer and if it were doing a 1 drop it would be land tax. Still the acceleration points into a pretty explosive early game followed by (i repeat) a refill or improvement of hand. (Quantity and Quality)

[Harlequin]

The problem is that its very hard to get all those moving parts in motion if you arn't already ahead.  The power of Null Rod, Confidant, Goyf, etc is that they are all generally good cards on thier own (in that you don't need to put effort into setting up null rod).  There are two big consideration for Land Tax: You have to have lower amounts of lands than your opponent in play, and You have to have low fetchland count.  And there is one big consideration for Scroll Rack (and mox diamonds): You don't run Null Rod. 

Consider a game where your opponent has mulled to 5 and keeps a hand with no lands, but a few moxen and something.  This should be a Tempo decks auto-win, but if your hand was the perfect land tax hand... then you are going to be as slow as your opponent.  You also run the risk of color screwing yourself with all your basics, should land tax get countered.  Also you don't draw land tax every game, and when you don't things get out of control quickly.  Lastly your opponent can shut of your engin by not playing lands.  Without Null Rod, they can crutch on moxen just like you are crutching on Mox Diamond.  While this may set them back more than you in most cases... there are plenty of times when they can sit around with Land+Sapphire waiting to draw tinker.  If it stop you're draw engine its worth it.

Lastly, I think quality is overrated in fish.  I 100% disgree that Old Gifts era WU fish was improved by running brainstorm.  If you drift back through the archives you can find where I argue that point out in several places.  But that is niether here nor there.  Scroll Rack isn't brainstorm.  Its a 3 mana commitment at least, and it doesn't cantrip.  And It opens you up to common hate.