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Author Topic: Vault-stitcher, an experiment.  (Read 1526 times)
jaeppel
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« on: October 16, 2009, 07:42:58 pm »

I was having kind of a goofy idea the other day, and ive been toying with this list ever since.  Fatestitcher is hot for untaping bazaars in dredge, but this use alone seems a bit too mono-funtional for the slots.  So then I started thinking hmm, what other permanents could Fatestitcher untap?  The obvious duh is Time Vault, which conveniently enough also untaps bazaar.  An thus was born this deck in dire need of improvement that i am codenaming "Vaultstitcher."

I think this deck actually already exists, ive heard rumours of such but have yet to find a list out there.

As a Dread Return target i could think of none other than Sharuum, as now you can dredge into vault and pop it back up.  Unearth stitcher and then do it again....  The other card i knew i wanted in there was Force of Will, because, well, its really good, and there are lots a bad blue cards to pitch sharuum, stitcher, careful study, and narcomeba are all highly pitchable blue cards.  This deck never has to choose between a tinker and a mystical tutor, just toss a crap card you werent going to cast anyways. Force is much more powerful at what it gets done than is Cabal Therapy, but some number of therapies need to be there.  It just seems wrong to have unused creature sacrifices by the end of the turn.

Sharuum as a returns target is already a combo with bridge, generating infinite zombies thanks to the legend rule.  The ideal line of play would be to dredge into the two Sharuums and vault, then return sharuum to create infinite tokens, ending the loop after an arbitrarily large number to return the vault, untap with a stitcher, walk into the win.  Helm of obedience becomes playable in dredge thanks to the Hegemon.  The biggest suck of Sharuum is thats its a fairly useless return target by itself, but even without a vault, sharuum can still pick up a lotus.

Bloodghast also looks like a big winner in here.  a natural replacement for ichorid, ghast doesnt require the massive investment in black that ichorid does, opening up the gate for enough U to support force.  There are only 7 black creatures in the deck, so ichorid would spend alot of time begging change on the streetcorner for something to eat.  Ghast is brutal with skullclamp, which is conveniently also Sharuum-able.  I think perhaps the clamps in here are a bit too 'danger of cool things' and perhaps should be cut, but i think they should be playtested.  Bazaar is generally uncompatible with holding up countermagic, i think that a solid CA engine is needed, as generally this deck never really wants to go into empty-hand-turbo-dredge mode.

Ghast also makes me want to try dakmor salvage, or maybe its just the fact that i have two russian ones... in any case its a land that can be dredged, allowing for returning ghasts with an empty hand.  Its a weak dredger, but it does up the total dredge count to 11, which is really  the minimum.  Thug doesnt make the cut here, even though hes a higher dredger, darkblast and salvage both do something on their own.  Ichorid needed thug for food, ghast needs salvage.  Its as simple as that.

For the remainder of the manabase, i will go with a fetch/dual base.  One basic island, for when it is relevant, and one dryad arbor, so that the fetches can become a dood if needed to cast returns or therapy.  Being able to fetch a basic swamp seems mostly non-important.  Salvage already eats up slots for a tap for black land.  Of course, two on moxen, lotus, and LED belong.  I wouldnt run more artifact accel since ghast vastly prefers lands.

Dredge engine: (10)
4   Golgari grave troll
4   Stinkweed imp
2   Darkblast

Draw: (11)
4   Bazaar of Baghdad
3   Careful study
1     Brainstorm
2   Skullclamp
1     Ancestral Recall
1   Vampiric tutor
1   Imperial Seal

Disruption: (8)
4   FoW
2   Cabal Therapy
2   Chain of Vapor

Bodies: (11)
3   Fatestitcher
3   Narcomeba
3   Bloodghast
2   Bridge from Below

Return Package: (5)
2   Dread Returns
2   Sharuum
1   Time Vault

Mana: (15)
4   Misty Rainforest
1   Verdant Catacombs
2   Underground Sea
1   Tropical Island
1   Island
1   Dryad arbor
1   Dakmor Salvage
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Black Lotus
1   Lion's Eye Diamond

Potential sideboard:
4  Leyline
1  Helm
3  Reverent Silence
1  Darkblast
2  Hurkyl's Recall
1  Iona, shield of Emeria
2  Angel of Despair 

The sideboard is just off the top of my head and is probably completely wrong.  The helm combo is nice for stealing the dredge mirror.  Reverent silence comes in to assist chain at fighting enemy leylines.  An extra Darkblast for relevant matches.  Hurkyl's to combat shops, angel of despair because its cool, and Iona because she is even cooler.


One thing i am thinking is that the fatestitcher/time vault interaction is an untapped powerhouse, but we still havent found the dec to use it. 
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Most decks are better with restricted cards.
Restrict: Drain, Workshop, Bazaar, Skullclamp.
Unrestrict: LoAlexandria, Manavault, Frantic Search, Burning Wish, FoFiction,TfK, Regrowth, 3sphere, DemConsultation.
Fix: Zodiac Dragon, Transmute Artifac
BruiZar
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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2009, 02:51:03 am »

For reference, I made a Sharuum Sharuum list in Meadberts primer. From my experience I can tell you that Lion's Eye Diamond is the MVP with Bazaar of Baghdad as you can go, Bazaar, Led for Blue, Dredge, Dredge, Unearth Stitcher, Untap Bazaar, Dredge Dredge, etc in the first turn.

I don't like the Skullclamps in the deck. You should never Sharuum up a Skullclamp. Dakmor Salvage is good though, because you can go: Sharuum for LED/Lotus, Bazaar into stitcher, Dredging Dakmor Salvage to pop Bloodghasts and Dread Return again.

I don't think I really like the mana base very much. Also, Entomb is better than Vampiric or Imperial Seal because you get to Dredge immediately with a Bazaar on the table.

The problem with this build is that it is a turn or 2 too slow. Extirpate on Stitcher is really bad news. Also, you are running Chain of Vapor in the main and only run 2 bridges, why? Also why only 3 Narcomoeba?
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jaeppel
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2009, 04:51:00 pm »

bruizar, Do you know where I could find your list in the meadberts primer?  Its a very long thread...

I don't like the Skullclamps in the deck. You should never Sharuum up a Skullclamp. ...

I don't think I really like the mana base very much. Also, Entomb is better than Vampiric or Imperial Seal because you get to Dredge immediately with a Bazaar on the table.

The problem with this build is that it is a turn or 2 too slow. Extirpate on Stitcher is really bad news. Also, you are running Chain of Vapor in the main and only run 2 bridges, why? Also why only 3 Narcomoeba?

The two skullclamps and the chains are the weakest part of the list.  Perhaps a good switch would be to go -2 clamp, -2 Chain of Vapor (into the board), and then +1 Narco, +1 Therapy, +1 Bridge, +1 Careful Study.  That version would be much more redundant, maybe also a fourth ghast is needed over the fourth narco.  Narco is a one shot freebee that doesnt work if you ever should topdeck it.  Ghasts pretty much just stay on the table and come back over and over.  The main advantage to running narco is that it is the first card to pitch when in hand.

I only two bridges since only one is needed for infinite zombies.  I thought the cut would allow more space for disruption.  Hence the chains main, that way there is a game one plan vs. whatever ails.

I think the black tutors are necessary as their primary function is to fetch a bazaar turn one.  Without powder something is needed to keep the engine online.  If i were to run entomb i think it would be in addition to vamp/seal.  Its nice to have 9 bazaars (4+2 tutor+3 study).
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Most decks are better with restricted cards.
Restrict: Drain, Workshop, Bazaar, Skullclamp.
Unrestrict: LoAlexandria, Manavault, Frantic Search, Burning Wish, FoFiction,TfK, Regrowth, 3sphere, DemConsultation.
Fix: Zodiac Dragon, Transmute Artifac
BruiZar
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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2009, 04:24:42 am »

In hindsight, I would've loved taking this list with me instead (untested)

TimeSticker

Kill Condition

2 Dread Return
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sharuum The Hegemon
1 Time Vault
4 Fate Stitcher

Dredge Engine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Serum Powder

Dredge Hits
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge From Below

Maindeck Disruption

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy

Land
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Dark Blast
1 Platinum Angel

This list is from April 2009 so its definately not optimal. It needs a complete overhaul.

here is the discussion:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35200.210
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meadbert
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2009, 04:45:33 pm »

4 City Of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Serum Powder
1 Time Vault
3 Sharuum,The Hegemon
4 Bridge From Below
4 Bloodghast
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatestitcher
4 Narcomoeba
4 Force Of Will
2 Chain Of Vapor
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
sideboard
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Unmask
2 Chain Of Vapor
3 Emerald Charm

I have this lying around.  It was based on Bruizar's idea.  I did not like Dakmore Salvage because it did not produce blue for Fatestitchers.  I mostly did not like Undiscovered Paradise because if things went well I only needed to hit the one land drop and if thing went poorly I wanted multiple mana lands in play to start hardcasting guys like Narco, Thug etc.  What seemed like a good idea and I have not tested yet is Cephalid Colliseum.  Mostly you want blue with this list and Colliseum provides that.  It also dodges Needle which is huge.  If I added Colliseum I would swap out Emerald Charm for some bounce spell.

I wanted more of a lot of stuff.  I wanted more Dread Returns to get the combo more regularly although 2 usually gets it.  I wanted more Chain of Vapors to answer threats.  I wanted more lands to ensure mana for Fatestitcher and a land for Bloodghast.

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