{new card discussion} Explore

[KingHeavy]

So, I haven't posted in a while, but my brief background with magic is Ive been playing since Legends came out, but haven't played in any vintage tournaments since before it was called vintage.  However, I always keep up with new tech as it is very intriguing to me.  I really wish someone would figure our a reliable way to "kick" sadsac, as that has been entirely ignored on this page as far as I can tell.  I digress.

This thread is about two things:

1) Worldwake common "Explore"  which reads  Sorcery; You may play an additional land this turn.  Draw a card.

2) Primary uses of the vintage staple "Time Walk"

As far as I can tell, besides an additional upkeep, untap, and attack phase, these cards are identical.  So, point one, "Explore" is the closest to, if not a functional green time walk in the right context.  The only green based strategy focused on the attack phase Im aware of is fish, but mainly just Tarmo and the disenchant guy.  Attack phase is not a primary use of time walk then in most decks that play it.  This stems from point two, and may or may not be true.

So what decks utilize time walk for Primarily upkeep, untap, and/or attack phase?
Are there top tier decks that use time walk for this, besides TPS and Tezz?  Do they even use it for that considering storm and infinite turns respectively?

If not, then the primary uses for timewalk in vintage are "an additional land drop and an extra draw" in which case we now have a common unrestricted version of this massively powerful vintage wisdom tooth.  Forgive my prosidy.

Im interested in thoughts about this card as well as point number two, the primary uses of time walk.  Thanks for reading.

-King

[meadbert]

In type 1 the untap phase is pretty important.  Just not being able to untap whatever you used to pay for this guy already makes him at best the equivolent to a  Time Walk.  If you have more mana out it is even worse.

[KingHeavy]

Yes, I agree, the untap is extremely important, but Im considering context as well within a build.  My first thoughts are with a primarily new build for a "B/G fish aggro" type build from interesting worldwake cards.  Its just a sketch but what about something like:

4 Explore
4 ESG
4 Street Wraith
4 Night's Whispers
4 Death's Shadow (13/13 -1/-1 for life total)
4 Tombstalker
3 tutors (demonic, vampiric, imperial)
1 Necropotence
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Bloodpet
shocklands
fetchlands
moxen/lotus

Its all aggro with disruption, 12 draw cards, and 8 decently fast clock threats.  Getting out 1-2 death's shadows for 10 p/t and/or tombstalkers by turn one or two is totally possible.  I'll keep toying with the numbers but it certainly has some potential.
Keep the thoughts going!

[Wagner]

Getting out 1-2 death's shadows for 10 p/t and/or tombstalkers by turn one or two is totally possible.

To have a 10 p/t Death Shadow, you need to be at 3 life, I'm not sure exacly how you do that in this deck by turn 2 barring a god draw. Even the Tombstalker seems unlikely.
Turn 1: Fetch into Shock (17), cycle Wraith, (15), mox and Whisper (13). That's about as lucky as you can get. By turn 2, you might go to 6-7.

Also agree with meadbert, this is an awful Time Walk. In late game, if you don't have any more lands to play, it's basically a 2 mana cantrip that doesn't even let you attack more. In early game, its an ok accelerant, but you're still 1 mana behind on whatever you needed to do, 2 if you're out of lands.

[Killane]

Yes, I agree, the untap is extremely important, but Im considering context as well within a build.  My first thoughts are with a primarily new build for a "B/G fish aggro" type build from interesting worldwake cards.  Its just a sketch but what about something like:

4 Explore
4 ESG
4 Street Wraith
4 Night's Whispers
4 Death's Shadow (13/13 -1/-1 for life total)
4 Tombstalker
3 tutors (demonic, vampiric, imperial)
1 Necropotence
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Bloodpet
shocklands
fetchlands
moxen/lotus

Its all aggro with disruption, 12 draw cards, and 8 decently fast clock threats.  Getting out 1-2 death's shadows for 10 p/t and/or tombstalkers by turn one or two is totally possible.  I'll keep toying with the numbers but it certainly has some potential.
Keep the thoughts going!

Please don't run Blood Pet. It was used as an example of a terrible card in Mark Justice's MTG Strategy Guide back in Strgonhold, and it's still a terrible card today. Please please please run anythign else.

Also, how do you get your life down to 3 by turn ? (barring 2x ritual + necropotence, AKA the God Draw).

[silvernail]

Explore is fairly terrible in constructed because dropping an extra land and drawing a card usually isn't relevant enough. If you want a jank time walk - use Seed Time or Orim's Chant because those spells have some relevant uses ( ST might be nice in Oath mirrors and OC is solid at "skipping" your opponents relevant plays for the turn).

[KingHeavy]

Actually the God Draw would go like:

1st Turn: Hand is on the draw ...Fetch, Shock, Fetch, Wraith, ESG, Explore, Death's Shadow, draw Seal or Vamp tutor

Fetch
Shock (17)
Wraith (15)
ESG
Explore
Fetch
Shock (12)
Seal/Vamp T for whispers(10)

2nd Turn:
Whispers (8)
Fetch
Shock (5)
Thoughtsieze or Wraith (3)
Death's Shadow
Death's Shadow

3rd Turn:
Attack for 22

Yes this is about as good as it could get, but some of these plays can be replaced by explore/wraith/whispers making it potentially very consistent and with 8 cards in the yard by then, Tombstalker is playable on turn 2.  Its a sketch so far, but I still think it could have potential.  I agree, blood pet sucks, but it does pay for tombstalker twice. There's def. a better card for this slot out there, I just threw the deck together quickly in my head to give explore some context.

BTW no one has talked about primary uses of time walk per deck and what ends up being more useful, extra phases or the draw and drop. Keep it going!

[shroomy2dope]

if a deck like this wanted a green time walk why wouldn't you board in 4 seedtimes. last time i checked 3 out of 4 decks ran blue.

[KingHeavy]

Oh come on, thats exactly the point. "If everyone plays blue then seedtime should be badass"  no!  come on creativity!  This thread is about the structural and logical uses of Time Walk an how Explore may be a functional replacement for the most important uses of the card.  As someone who knows very little about modern vintage theory I have to say that only reason there are a few experts on the format is because every other shmo basement liver just cops Smmenens lists anyways.  I haven't recieved a single cohiesive thought from this thread in any way of explanation as to why Explore is a bad card.  The simply say" Its bad, you cant untap and all you do is draw a card.  If one asks an impartial viewer to the format, the reason Vintage is so one dimensional is because the "players" take broken as gospel and they utilize zero creativity unless two card kills are extremely obvious.  Ths is what dumbs down vintage. There are at least three two card kill combo's in vintage and yet no deck relies solely on that combination.  It kind of sad, the lack of creativity.     

[Cyberpunker]

I think you should playtest your deck first then slowly improve on it by yourself or with a friend(s). The suggestions you are looking for cannot be found usually in a forum because no one has played your deck; and so no one has the experience to tell you what would work and what would not. In fact you probably know more than any of us about your deck.

On the surface though I would also question the inclusion of Bloodpet...is it to save the mana from Turn 1 over to Turn 2? If so that makes sense.

BTW: I like your idea!

[Guli]

I like the idea. But it is hard to anticipate and theorize about the pro and contra 'time walk' vs 'explore'. Like the card says you need to explore this path.

What is important is that you get in a duress effect after explore. You get to draw a card and drop land. So you need to maximize that land drop right there. Best one mana interaction is by all means duress. OR you could add blue for spell pierce or stifle kind of stuff. You can also play that disenchant. That can be tempo as well.

I don't want to break down anything but be aware that explore doesn't look that powerful at first glance. So don't get your hope up, just objectively test it out.

[DubDub]

Explore is not even close to Time Walk in Vintage.  The more acceleration there is available in a format, the less true the rule of Magic "Lands = Turns" is.  Vintage has the most available acceleration, and hence Explore is least useful in Vintage relative to it's power in slower formats.  Vintage is defined by the dominance of low casting costs (whether severely undercosted Ancestral/Concentrate, Demonic/Diabolic etc, free like Moxen/Force, or cheating like Tinker/Oath), because one must take into account the opportunity cost of each spell.

Explore generates -1 mana to draw a card (if you have a land, which is less likely in Vintage than in slower formats, since typically the moxen replace lands), though you may generate +1 mana per turn thereafter for each turn that you don't miss a land drop, and hence is comparable to other cards that draw a card for -1 mana (cantrips).  Since Explore isn't blue, and costs 2 to begin with, it is not unreasonable to conclude that it is worst than many other available cantrips (Serum Visions, Slight of Hand, Opt).

Time Walk draws a card while generating positive net mana, not to mention everything else it does.

If Wizards is going to print a card to approximate Time Walk, they would start with this:

[TW Variant] U
Instant
Draw a card, you may untap up to one land.

[silvernail]

I haven't recieved a single cohiesive thought from this thread in any way of explanation as to why Explore is a bad card.  The simply say" Its bad, you cant untap and all you do is draw a card.  If one asks an impartial viewer to the format, the reason Vintage is so one dimensional is because the "players" take broken as gospel and they utilize zero creativity unless two card kills are extremely obvious.

It's not that 'it's a bad card' it's that you are not understanding why it is not a good enough card. This card says : pay 2: draw a card and get a land if it is your turn - which is nearly equivalent to : U sorcery  Draw a Card. Explore will effectively be a 1cc draw card sorcery in most decks that only leaves you with one mana open to react to your opponent's next turn. Most decks don't run a straight 1cc draw one card sorcery (Ponder allows you to potentially rearrange top cards, which makes it better than just drawing a card). No one typically plays Whispers of the Muse in vintage either and that is an instant with buyback.

In order to compete evenly with time walk, explore would need to read : 1G sorcery -  Untap all your permanents. All your creatures gain haste until end of turn. All your planeswalkers may use an additional ability this turn. It becomes the upkeep step. You may choose to have an additional combat step this turn.

Now perhaps you could see why a "0cc" sorcery is broken and explore is not. Explore would need all that ridiculous text added to be even with Time Walk. When you boil it down to what really happens explore is only a 1cc draw card sorcery in the best case scenario while time walk is a "free" "draw " card spell that does so much more than just draw a card.

Does time walk amount to explore often in vintage ? No. Even if all you do is draw a card and play a land off time walk, it is still far better than explore because you cast it for "free" and are now untapped and ready to mana drain or what ever you may need to do. So even in the worst case scenario of casting the card (barring it getting countered) time walk is heads and shoulders better than explore. There are plenty of instant speed draw spells that would have impact than Explore for a vintage environment.

Seedtime is situational, but it offers you a true time walk.
0cc instant - if your opponent played a blue spell this turn: Untap all your permanents. All your creatures gain haste until end of turn. All your planeswalkers may use an additional ability this turn. It becomes the upkeep step. You may choose to have an additional combat step this turn.

all of that vs G sorcery: Draw a card.

How you fail to see the benefit of actually having an extra turn is beyond me, but I assure you a "0cc" card that has the potential to essentially say : OMG you win the game is leagues away from G: draw a card.

It's not that vintage players don't like to innovate ; we do, the scene is a good bit different since 2001 or so. The thing is some cards are just not useful enough for such a powerful environment.

It's not that we aren't creative or willing to (pardon the pun) explore new ideas in new cards, it's just that the bar to being useful in vintage is set very high and you may not be able to see it because you aren't accustomed to the format well enough yet.

It would be similar if say a brand new magic player cracked open some packs with perhaps a fat pack and tried to make a deck to play in a type 2 event. The new player may make some card choices that are solid in a limited event but that just aren't fast enough for standard ( perhaps a 5cc removal spell vs 1-3cc).

That is what explore boils down to - being too little of an effect in the given environment.

[KingHeavy]

Thankyou for the response, that is much more what I was looking for.  Im well aware that explore doesnt hold a candle to time walk and that ultimately in boils down to an extra draw for a single mana.  I dont claim to be an expert at vintage by any means.  However, when considering the components of your analysis I think you are viewing the card's abilities in a vacuum as opposed to in a given context. 

For example:  In Tezz explore just draws you a card as any land you would play as extra would simply provide mana effectively reducing the cost of the card to  and removing any chance of having drain mana for defense.  The drawn card could be the extra land, or it could be something more useful like any bomb in the deck.  Not very useful in Tezz

In dredge with say, crop rotation it could be a second bazaar or a forest to rotate for a bazaar or arbor dryad or something very useful. Maybe good

In a shop build(though none I know of run much green) it could be a second workshop or with crucible a second strip mine for the turn. Maybe not bad

In fish it could be an extra one drop early on or the ability to run daze without a concern for tempo loss. also maybe good

So it seems that given the context it certainy could have uses.  It could be  draw a card, add  or draw a card then draw two cards and discard three cards.
Is it the new best spell in vintage? Of course not, but could it have a place in some build that hasnt been considered yet, absolutely.  Thats what testing is for. Its certainly doesnt boil down to just  " draw a card" unless viewed through a vacuum and vintage is anything but.  If they let me play four timewalks I would, but that doesnt mean this card has no potential, but just maybe it will in the right context.

Red Painter decks dont play seedtime either

[BruiZar]

It's not that vintage players don't like to innovate ; we do, the scene is a good bit different since 2001 or so. The thing is some cards are just not useful enough for such a powerful environment.

That was hilarious.. You talk about vintage innovation in a 9 year span. It took google less than 9 years to become one the most valuable brands in the world and a mega corporation worth billions. What innovations did Vintage get? Dredge came from another format. Time Vault / Voltaic Key is so frigging obvious you can't call it an innovation, and the restrictions of blue were decisions made by rules managers, not vintage players.

[silvernail]

The basic deck strategies in vintage aren't likely to change heavily due to the high bar for change. Even considering that, we have plenty of new decks compared to 2001 in part due to new card prints as well as unrestrictions and erratas.  Drain and shop decks from the past aren't 100% the same today but those two archetypes will most likely always exist in vintage. The fact that other deck types actually exist now is proof that there has been some growth in the format.

[griffin]

It seems to me explore should be compared with exploration. So-

Explore:
-cantrips

Exploration:
-costs one less
-sticks around

You suggested crucible with strip in shops. Exploration would certainly be better there since you get to keep recurring the strip mine. In relation to playing an extra workshop, explore could conceivably be better since it cantrips, but then again, exploration could be better since it is cheaper. Tellingly however, exploration isn't played as far as I know. Even assuming explore is better in shops, it doesn't seem like it would be that much better.

In fish, tempo is already lost a bit since explore costs  (or worse  ). If you want to play a one drop, it seems like it would be better to play a one drop and then serum visions or something similar. I don't know enough about fish yet to say definitively that explore is bad, but I certainly don't have high hopes for it in fish either.

In general, it could have a place in vintage that no one has thought about, but in my opinion it probably doesn't.

[meadbert]

I do not think Explore is type 1 playable, but if it could work anywhere it would be in Turboland.

Basically run Fastbond, 4 Explorations, 4 Explores, 4 Horn of Greed and 4 Crucible of World.

The lack of an untap phase is less relevant since Turboland can potentially fetch out 2 lands to get mana and in general has more mana than it needs anyway.

[MirariKnight]

Disclaimer: I don't think Explore will ever see Vintage play.

It's just interesting to note how much better this card would be if the two effects resolved in the opposite order...

[DubDub]

Disclaimer: I don't think Explore will ever see Vintage play.

It's just interesting to note how much better this card would be if the two effects resolved in the opposite order...

So far as I read it, you don't have to play the land during resolution (and indeed, can't).  Explore sets up a special rule that allows you to play one additional land on the turn it resolves.