[Single Card Discussion] Omnath, Locus Of Mana

[Stormanimagus]

Hey all!

So I am rarely fascinated with the deckbuilding possibilities of a green creature for Vintage, but this dude seems like he might have it.


Omnath, Locus of Mana    2

Legendary Creature - Elemental   

Green mana doesn't empty from your mana pool as phases and steps end.
Omnath, Locus of Mana gets +1/+1 for each green mana in your mana pool.

Could this guy possibly be an alternative to Tarmogoyf as a finisher for certain types of aggro strategies? I mean, the 2G mana cost is kinda restrictive but the ability to hoard green mana has to be useful in some way. I dunno, I just see some potentially interesting applications for this guy as a flexible mana accelerator/BFB (Big Freaking Beater!). Perhaps Noble Fish could use him instead of Tarmogoyf? Other thoughts?

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think this card can be neat in some fun settings, but not competitive vintage.  Assuming you had even GG by the time you cast him (on color mox, land, etc), he'd reliably hit play on turn 2...with no mana to float.  Next turn, you pay GG or GGG (if you don't miss a land drop of green). and he becomes a 3/3 or 4/4.  That makes him roughly the same size as a tarmgoyf attacking on turn 3 (and you probably are one attack less compared to tarm).  Also, this means you are tapped out of unspendable mana for the turn (unless you want to shrink him back to 1/1).  Floating mana between turns (if you can) would really only get you 6-7 green mana on turn 4 (which is underwhelming at least).  By turn 4, if you have no need to spend mana, and he can float it between turns, and you have all green mana, he will swing for 3, then 7 in the same turns tarm would have swung for 3, 4, 4...by the time they break even...if they do...they kill on about the same turn, but tarmgoyf allows you to spend your mana.
Add to this that the guy is legendary and he is worse than 2 tarmgoyfs.  He will not replace tarm at all.  I doubt even as a 3 tarm/1 Omnath split.

[Wagner]

I don't think this should replace Goyf, but simple provide another efficient beater. But, at three mana, he muste compete with Lorethingy Snake, and I think the Snake is just a much more efficient beater. Unless you have a heavy green manabase, Snakewill generally be bigger just with the draw 1 per turn.

Even in decks that don't use blue, I don't see him strong enough to be a contender.

Edit: Ok, I absolutely don't remember the creature's name, but you all figured I was talking about the card-growing snake dude.

[P]

Lorescale Coatl

I really don't see how this new guy could make the vintage cut to be perfectly honest, seems a bit too condition intensive just to be able to stand toe to toe with the goyf.

[BruiZar]

From a design point of view I like it, but the problem is that you don't want to stop casting spells which is what you have to do to grow him

[sassfactor4]

I dont see this getting any play in any competitive format, but the design is interesting.

I feel it is another card that is going to get highly overvalued for its potential for mana screwyness like lotus cobra, but ultimately will not be very good. If I am reading it right it does let you just keep building your mana pool, so it kind of allows you to run a small mana base and drop large dudes.  Assuming you have a land drop every turn...
 turn 3 store 0 omnath 1/1
 turn 4 store 4 omnath 5/5
 turn 5 store 5 9 total, omnath 10/10
 turn 6 store 6, omnath 16/16

could be combined with noble heirarch\greenweaver druid on turn 1\2 for more acceleration.  But regardless you aren't playing any other spells.

it dies to every type of non damage removal, and eats it on the first turn it comes out to any damage removal (unless you are playing it with green mana in pool).  Theres no evasion, no protection and no trampling which makes it kind of a weak beater.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Helix Pinnacle seems absolutely superior in any deck that can generate indefinite amounts of green (or colorless) mana.

Knight of the Reliquary fetches Wasteland while getting big.  Tarmogoyf costs less and requires no additional investment.  

Final nail in the coffin: it's not a */* with mana cost 1G.  It's a 2G 1/1 that gets a static effect while in play meaning that you can't somehow abuse its size in other zones.

Upwelling is somewhat relevant against Stax, but you should already be beating Stax AND have enough permanents by turn 2/3 that Tangle Wire isn't tapping down your whole board.

[meadbert]

The way to abuse this card would be with something like Seedtime.
Basically you can pump away and then the moment your opponent casts a blue spell on your turn you get a Time Walk allowing you to swing again.
The trouble is Seed Time is dead in a lot of matchups.

There are two benefits to this guy.  One is pumping, but the other is saving up the green mana.  What are some uses for saved up Green Mana?
I suppose you can save up for a huge Brain Geyser/Skeletel Scrying.  What other uses are there?  Are there any cards that are green with CMC 4 of 5 that would be huge bombs, but are too expensive for type 1?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Plow Under is probably the most relevant high CC green bomb since it cuts the opponent off from mana and nerfs their next two draws.

[Marske]

@meadbert.

Are there any cards that are green with CMC 4 of 5 that would be huge bombs, but are too expensive for type

Tooth and Nail (Grab Iona, DSC?!)

Seriously though, I don't see this making a huge splash in Vintage.

[zeus-online]

Plow Under is probably the most relevant high CC green bomb since it cuts the opponent off from mana and nerfs their next two draws.

How about stunted growth? It's like mind twist, just better!

[meadbert]

In a way this card is a severely undercosted Nightmare.  We talk about how bad it is to not spend the mana, but you can.  With 4 lands out you just float  through your attack phase, swing for 5 and then spend the mana during your second main phase.  Nightmare is nowhere close to playable in type 1, but the ability to save up mana combined with a decent clock could be useful, especially for any slightly high CC Green instants.  Imagine the insane synergy with Mana Drain if this guy were blue instead.

[TopSecret]

Well, this guy requires a manabase with a lot of green mana. That's about it.

I don't like comparing cards, but he's like a green Looming Shade that doesn't require you to spend the mana to pump it.
He lets you float the mana instead. And if you don't spend it, he still gets +1/+1 for it later.

So, he's like this:


Mikey, the Elemental Green Looming Shade

Legendary Creature - Elemental

: Put a +1/+1 counter on Mikey.

Remove a +1/+1 counter from Mikey: Add to your mana pool.

1/1


In a vacuum, this card seems really good. At worst, you can pump him up for free to attack assuming he doesn't get killed, and at best he saves all your excess mana and gets huge.

He'd be good in some green beater deck. But in Vintage, I think he's most interesting in a control deck that's mostly green with a splash of blue. That's easy enough to construct with dual lands anyway. If you can protect him, he'll be about a 4/4 with the option of getting bigger with excess green mana. His ability to float green mana certainly compliments the disruption strategy, since you can use the floated mana to protect him or play card draw, depending.

Of note, without excess mana he sucks at blocking.

I don't think he's broken in Vintage at all. But he is the best three mana creature win condition in a mostly green, disruption heavy deck in Vintage that will have excess green mana during the game, assuming you won't need to block and no other synergies are present to make something like Coatl or Knight of the Reliquary better (which would include card draw, lots of fetch lands, and possibly Force of Will).

Tarmogoyf is two mana, so he's still better in every deck that currently exists. Although this guy could be added in addition to Goyf if there's enough room and green mana.

I don't know how good this guy will be in other formats, since he dies to burn unless you drop him with 3+ extra green mana, at which point, you could play something better for 6+ mana. But if you untap with him in play, he can get out of burn range if you don't make any other plays. So he only has a one turn window against anything playing red assuming you can afford to spend 3+ extra mana into him and keeping it there. Plus he can't block unless you commit mana to him.

He's much better than Looming Shade, and better than Nantuko Shade if you have a ton of excess green mana to leave floating.

Also, if there are any instants that are green and playable this guy instantly becomes better.

So...

He sucks? lol

[meadbert]

Bind might be playable in a deck with this guy.  You can counter a fetch land or Waste activate and draw a card for 

Too bad Bind cannot effect triggered abilities because it would be nice to slow Oath.

Naturalize might also work.

[TopSecret]

In addition, Krosan Grip, Gutteral Response, Manamorphose (to convert mana), and the flashback for Ancient Grudge are also decent instants.
Vines of Vastwood and Stonewood Invocation are also decent pump spells that can protect Omnath.
Cloudthresher or Panglacial Wurm (with fetches) can both be played at instant speed.
Baloth Cage Trap is another instant that makes a 4/4, and Cobra Trap can be used against Wasteland.
Summoning Trap can deal with counters, and it combos with Worldly Tutor (another instant) if that was in the deck, plus it is a bomb if Cloudthresher is maindeck.
Winding Canyons could play creatures as instants.

Vexing Shusher is probably a given if the deck is only green with lots of mana.
Seeds of Innocence can kill all the Tinker creatures, Moxen, and problematic artifacts.

Also, between Llanowar Elves/Fyndhorn Elves, Priest of Titania, Elvish Archdruid, and Gaea's Cradle you could make a lot of mana.
There's also the whole combo-elf engine, but that requires the deck be built for it, at which point having Omnath might not be worth it.
I'm not sure how else to make a buttload of green mana outside of elves, or Orcish Lumberjack.