[Deck Improvement] Vintage Discard

[zippysquirrel]

I'm playing in New England, if that affects anything.

The basic idea here is instead of waiting to disrupt plays, what if I just take them away.
I plan to keep the 4 x Hymn to Tourach in there, so start from there.

Suggestions are welcome.


4 x Force of Will
4 x Mana Drain
2 x Counterspell

4 x Hymn to Tourach
3 x Duress
2 x Thoughtseize

3 x Tombstalker
2 x Dimir Cutpurse

1 x Time Walk
1 x Imperial Seal
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Brainstorm

3 x Null Rod
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Echoing Truth
1 x Tendrils of Agony

Mana  (22)
3 x Dark Ritual
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Black Lotus
4 x Underground Sea
4 x Polluted Delta
2 x Flooded Strand
3 x Swamp
3 x Island


Sideboard

3 x Engineered plague
2 x Yixlid Jailer
4 x Damnation
4 x Leyline of the Void
1 x Planar Void
1 x Hurkyll’s Recall

[healo]

Hi,

I dont think its good idea to mix drains and hymn to tourach. First, you either want mana open to cast Dran, or tap for Hymn.. Next, what you gonna do with your mana from drains? Second, you will have mana issues due to BB and UU for Drains, Counterspells, etc.. vs. Hymns.

[BruiZar]

If you're running blue i would consider vendillion clique

[TopSecret]

Here's a lot of ideas without any overall cohesion between them:

Dark Confidant would probably be pretty good in this deck. He would have some disynergy with maindeck Tombstalker and Force but that is likely negligible.

Dream Salvage could also be pretty interesting.

Some combination of Piracy Charm and Funeral Charm could also be a nice compliment to a lot of discard effects. They can kill opposing Confidants or Welders and sometimes stop non-instant topdecks once the opponent's hand is gone.

Dropping Counterspell for something else might be a good idea unless you really need another two drop hard counter that hits everything.

Playing Mindtwist may be a good idea since you have both Dark Rituals and Mana Drains to power it out.

Erayo may be an interesting inclusion. Flipping her isn't out of the question since you already have a miniature storm theme. Erayo is very good with discard effects and Dimir Cutpurse specifically. Adding Repeal to the maindeck would make Erayo easier to flip if she was included.

Is there any particular reason you are not playing Yawgmoth's Will? I think it would be very good in this deck.

You have a lot of tutors, so playing a Sower of Temptation maindeck may not be a bad idea. Currently, your deck doesn't look very strong against aggro without resolving a Tombstalker or two.

A maindeck Bojuka Bog could also be a nice addition to tutor for against graveyard strategies game one.

[uluwatu]

I played mono black control/discard around the time of the brainstorm restrictions and found it to be a viable 2nd tier deck for vintage. The strategy works well against storm decks (unless they go off while your on the draw), it's good against combo decks that are ussually going to take 2-3 turns to get the pieces to win, with a good sideboard ichorid should be a favorable matchup. When I played my worst matchup was with U/W landstill fish, decks that quickly play creatures are difficult for discard. The Damnation in your s/b might be good card choice right now. Stax is probably another difficult matchup but i never played against it with this deck.

Here's the decklist that I was playing.

Sorceries:
4 x hymn to taurach
4 x duress
2 x thoughtsieze
2 x unmask
1 x mindtwist
1 x demonic tutor
1 x imperial seal

Instants:
1 x vampiric tutor
2 x darkblast
2 x diabolic edict
4 x dark ritual

Creatures:
4 x nantuko shade
4 x hypnotic spectre
4 x phyrexian negator

Artifacts:
2 x the rack
1 x black lotus
1 x mox jet
1 x lotus petal

Land:
16 x swamp
2 x wasteland
1 x strip mine

Sideboard: (something like)
2 x diabolic edict
1 x darkblast
4 x yixlid jailer
2 x extirpate
2 x the rack
1 x demonic consultation
3 x terror

I played some version of this in a handful tournaments and had reasonable success. I was just on the cusp of making the top 8 at a midsized event (tied for 9th), and I tied for 1st at a small event (with very good players playing tier 1 decks). 

Negator was good in a creatureless meta, I think spectre's random discard is going to be more effective than dimir cutpurse most of the time even with your drawing. Today id probably experiment with nyxathid instead of negator. Spell pierce is going to be great defense against discard.

Splashing blue is the best way I can see to improve the discard shell. This deck needs some card advantage, and it also needs bounce spells (or something) for troublesome artifacts and enchantments. Supporting force with a strategy that wants so much black is difficult. 

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I played mono black control/discard around the time of the brainstorm restrictions and found it to be a viable 2nd tier deck for vintage. The strategy works well against storm decks (unless they go off while your on the draw), it's good against combo decks that are ussually going to take 2-3 turns to get the pieces to win, with a good sideboard ichorid should be a favorable matchup. When I played my worst matchup was with U/W landstill fish, decks that quickly play creatures are difficult for discard. The Damnation in your s/b might be good card choice right now. Stax is probably another difficult matchup but i never played against it with this deck.

Here's the decklist that I was playing.

Sorceries:
4 x hymn to taurach
4 x duress
2 x thoughtsieze
2 x unmask
1 x mindtwist
1 x demonic tutor
1 x imperial seal

Instants:
1 x vampiric tutor
2 x darkblast
2 x diabolic edict
4 x dark ritual

Creatures:
4 x nantuko shade
4 x hypnotic spectre
4 x phyrexian negator

Artifacts:
2 x the rack
1 x black lotus
1 x mox jet
1 x lotus petal

Land:
16 x swamp
2 x wasteland
1 x strip mine

Sideboard: (something like)
2 x diabolic edict
1 x darkblast
4 x yixlid jailer
2 x extirpate
2 x the rack
1 x demonic consultation
3 x terror

I played some version of this in a handful tournaments and had reasonable success. I was just on the cusp of making the top 8 at a midsized event (tied for 9th), and I tied for 1st at a small event (with very good players playing tier 1 decks). 

Negator was good in a creatureless meta, I think spectre's random discard is going to be more effective than dimir cutpurse most of the time even with your drawing. Today id probably experiment with nyxathid instead of negator. Spell pierce is going to be great defense against discard.

Splashing blue is the best way I can see to improve the discard shell. This deck needs some card advantage, and it also needs bounce spells (or something) for troublesome artifacts and enchantments. Supporting force with a strategy that wants so much black is difficult. 

Why no Dark Confidant?

[uluwatu]

Life loss was an issue playing this deck (that's why i don't play fetchlands).I didn't ever playtest confidant in this deck for that reason. Night's Whisper was in for a while but today i'd take it out in favor of darkblast. Confidant is definatly worth a test in this build though. It's possible his card advantage makes this deck's midgame tempo much more difficult to play against. I like opening play swamp, dark ritual, duress, followed with Confidant (or hymn or w/unmask).  This deck primarily takes advantage of when both players have lost their hands from discard spells (me from playing the spells, them from receiving the spells or fighting them with fow), then I play a shade or negator to win in 4 turns while they draw-go or play specter to slow them down while I get more pieces to kill them quickly.

This deck really wants a faster kill, in which case confidant would be better. I'm considering a depths/mage variation.

[jovialevil]

I'm playing in New England, if that affects anything.

The basic idea here is instead of waiting to disrupt plays, what if I just take them away.
I plan to keep the 4 x Hymn to Tourach in there, so start from there.

Suggestions are welcome.


4 x Force of Will
4 x Mana Drain
2 x Counterspell

4 x Hymn to Tourach
3 x Duress
2 x Thoughtseize

3 x Tombstalker
2 x Dimir Cutpurse

1 x Time Walk
1 x Imperial Seal
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Brainstorm

3 x Null Rod
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Echoing Truth
1 x Tendrils of Agony

Mana  (22)
3 x Dark Ritual
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Black Lotus
4 x Underground Sea
4 x Polluted Delta
2 x Flooded Strand
3 x Swamp
3 x Island


Sideboard

3 x Engineered plague
2 x Yixlid Jailer
4 x Damnation
4 x Leyline of the Void
1 x Planar Void
1 x Hurkyll’s Recall

  I agree with the people who think it might be slow for your deck to get up to BB and UU in order to Hymn/Counterspell consistently.  I also think you can free up at least one slot by cutting Tendrils; without Yawgmoth's Will or maindeck Rebuild it doesn't look like you would be able to win very often by that route.

  I've also been working on a discard deck, but it goes in a different direction from yours... and doesn't have the requisite 4x Hymn that you want to keep.  I'll post it anyway, though, because I think it takes a less mana-intensive approach to the problem you're trying to address with the counterspells... that discard is all sorcery speed (except for the black spellbomb) and so discard alone can't defend you against whatever the other player draws.  My solution, instead of aiming to hold a counterspell, was to slap in 4x Magus of the Moon.  It looks like this creature would be very irritating for most of the format right now, keeping most oath decks off green, dredge decks off bazaar, and even decks with plentiful basic lands to fight wasteland away from their fetches.

4 Magus of the Moon
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Orcish Settlers
4 Dark Confidant
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Dead / Gone
4 Manamorphose
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

1 Strip Mine
4 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp

  But in essence I agree with your plan of complimenting the discard with some other form of disruption... I just think that mana denial might prove more effective as a complimenting strategy since it's faster to slap onto the table in parallel with a bunch of duress effects.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Why aren't you starting with Sullivan Solution?  That's the closest thing to a "recent" winning discard deck.

[yukizora]

I definitly would play dark confidant in this deck. You will certainly loose a significant amount of life, but it often will make you win the Card Advantage battle.