The next big blue? Call to Mind as an engine.....

[Lemnear]

Call to Mind - 2U
Sorcery
Return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand

sorry, I found only the german pic working... 

I wonder is this cards isn't a bit underestimated in most of the forums on the net.

The restrictions of Thirst 4 Knowledge and Merchant Scroll sounds like a joke facing this card. Together with all the tutors in vintage this allows to chain Ancestral Recall, Tinker or Mana Drain into a permanent threat for a reasonable price. Imagine to drain opponents Confidant. Your next turn you tap an island and cast Call to Mind to return Mana Drain to your Hand. 4 mana to recall the Anc, 6 for Tinker, 3 for Force of Will....

Could this be the "engine" to replace Dark Confidant? Moreover, would you agree that this card could be the next one facing a restriction since Regrowth is still restricted and this card not even need a color splash?

[Troy_Costisick]

Your image isn't working.

[Lemnear]

fixed...

[Grand Inquisitor]

No one plays relearn and this isn't much better.  For your money, intuition>AK probably does more.

[AmbivalentDuck]

If this has any real value, it's recurring Time Walk.

[Marske]

If this has any real value, it's recurring Time Walk.

So for 3UU we're doing the same thing TV/key does (for 4 colorless by the way) only once, yeah, sounds like a great plan... recurring Time Walk as a means to take infinite turns went out the window when they released Time Vault in it's current form until they print:

Artifact 0
1: You may play target Sorcery card from your graveyard without paying it's mana cost, use this only any time you could play a sorcery.

(bursting bubble time, printing something like that is not going to happen, ever)

Not to mention that playing Ancestral (again) for 2UU isn't that hot either (why not Regrowth it ?!) and I'm not even going into what's wrong with people wanting to drain for 2UUU (play Scattering Stroke if you think that's a reasonable prize which is actually cheaper)

No one plays relearn and this isn't much better.  For your money, intuition>AK probably does more.

Amen !

For the people that don't have gatherer handy:

Relearn {1UU} |Sorcery| Return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.

Relearn, sees no play whatsoever, therefore we can conclude that this although a bit easier to cast *cough* it's blue! So who cares *cough* will also see 0 play as well.

I understand everybody's urge to "find the newest tech!" and be the one to find that one "Gem" in the new set but not every card is playable, I'm getting a bit tired of all these random discussions sprouting up regarding cards that are either ridiculously over costed (Brittle Effigny) or utter Jank like this one.... why are we spending valuable time and energy into this kind of crap ?!

[Oath of Happy]

If this has any real value, it's recurring Time Walk.

So for 3UU we're doing the same thing TV/key does (for 4 colorless by the way) only once, yeah, sounds like a great plan... recurring Time Walk as a means to take infinite turns went out the window when they released Time Vault in it's current form until they print:

Artifact 0
1: You may play target Sorcery card from your graveyard without paying it's mana cost, use this only any time you could play a sorcery.

(bursting bubble time, printing something like that is not going to happen, ever)

Not to mention that playing Ancestral (again) for 2UU isn't that hot either (why not Regrowth it ?!) and I'm not even going into what's wrong with people wanting to drain for 2UUU (play Scattering Stroke if you think that's a reasonable prize which is actually cheaper)

No one plays relearn and this isn't much better.  For your money, intuition>AK probably does more.

Amen !

For the people that don't have gatherer handy:

Relearn {1UU} |Sorcery| Return target instant or sorcery card from your graveyard to your hand.

Relearn, sees no play whatsoever, therefore we can conclude that this although a bit easier to cast *cough* it's blue! So who cares *cough* will also see 0 play as well.

I understand everybody's urge to "find the newest tech!" and be the one to find that one "Gem" in the new set but not every card is playable, I'm getting a bit tired of all these random discussions sprouting up regarding cards that are either ridiculously over costed (Brittle Effigny) or utter Jank like this one.... why are we spending valuable time and energy into this kind of crap ?!

I agree with a lot of what you've said, but I wouldn't consider this discusion a waste of time.

Regrowth is defenitly better, but in a Tezz deck that runs red over green, this might be a decent 1 of.  Heres why I think the card might be usefull.

This card is a mid to late game card, but on turn 1/2 it will at least pitch to FOW.  After that, it can get back a used FOW, reuse Ancestral Recall, get back a countered Yawg Will or Tinker, or be used in a Gifts Ungiven pile.

Also, the 2U as opposed to 1UU makes a huge different if you are running drains, for 2 reasons.  The obvious is that you can drain into this while keeping an extra land untapped, but also, you can play this on turn 3 if you have a mana crypt, or 2 off color moxes, while still keeping UU open.

Just some thoughts to consider.  Preordain will probably take all the slots that this card might have had a chance for anyway.

[AmbivalentDuck]

If this has any real value, it's recurring Time Walk.

So for 3UU we're doing the same thing TV/key does (for 4 colorless by the way) only once, yeah, sounds like a great plan... recurring Time Walk as a means to take infinite turns went out the window when they released Time Vault in it's current form

Since Time Warp saw considerable standard and extended play in its day at 3UU, yes we can conclude that 3UU is the right cost for the effect.  This is also considerably more versatile.  Is it better than Regrowth? No.  But it's not restricted either.  I fully agree that Time Vault completely obsoleted Time Walk recursion, however there are other spells in the format worth recurring.  Will I play this tomorrow, no.  Will it hit the list of "watch to see if they become playables," yes.

[Killane]

If this has any real value, it's recurring Time Walk.

So for 3UU we're doing the same thing TV/key does (for 4 colorless by the way) only once, yeah, sounds like a great plan... recurring Time Walk as a means to take infinite turns went out the window when they released Time Vault in it's current form

Since Time Warp saw considerable standard and extended play in its day at 3UU, yes we can conclude that 3UU is the right cost for the effect.  This is also considerably more versatile.  Is it better than Regrowth? No.  But it's not restricted either.  I fully agree that Time Vault completely obsoleted Time Walk recursion, however there are other spells in the format worth recurring.  Will I play this tomorrow, no.  Will it hit the list of "watch to see if they become playables," yes.

We can conclude that 3UU is the right cost for the effect in Standard and Extended. Not in Vintage. in Vintage, 3UU needs to read: you win the game during your net main phase (ie Tezz) to see play. 4UB you win the game now (recurring YawgWin) might be worth it, and the card might fit in a gifts pile, but recurring Walk is not going to be an optimal play with this card.

1UU is not a particularly hard mana cost, and the card that has the same but with that cost has seen NO play. While I am going to test this card see if it is worth it, I don;t think it will be.

[AmbivalentDuck]

1UU is not a particularly hard mana cost, and the card that has the same but with that cost has seen NO play. While I am going to test this card see if it is worth it, I don;t think it will be.

Losing your untap phase is very relevant.

[MaximumCDawg]

1UU is not a particularly hard mana cost, and the card that has the same but with that cost has seen NO play. While I am going to test this card see if it is worth it, I don;t think it will be.

Losing your untap phase is very relevant.

I think he means Relearn, not Savor the Moment

[Killane]

1UU is not a particularly hard mana cost, and the card that has the same but with that cost has seen NO play. While I am going to test this card see if it is worth it, I don;t think it will be.

Losing your untap phase is very relevant.

I think he means Relearn, not Savor the Moment

Yes, yes I do  .

[Delha]

1UU is not a particularly hard mana cost, and the card that has the same but with that cost has seen NO play. While I am going to test this card see if it is worth it, I don;t think it will be.

Losing your untap phase is very relevant.

I think he means Relearn, not Savor the Moment

This suddenly makes sense to me. I really couldn't understand how one was losing the untap phase, I'd pretty much forgotten Savor the Moment existed at all.

[vassago]

This suddenly makes sense to me. I really couldn't understand how one was losing the untap phase, I'd pretty much forgotten Savor the Moment existed at all.

Anyone remember the panoptic mirror deck with savor the moment before Vault got unreunfixed?    That deck was pretty fun, and it played savor the moment. 

[Lurker101]

This suddenly makes sense to me. I really couldn't understand how one was losing the untap phase, I'd pretty much forgotten Savor the Moment existed at all.

Anyone remember the panoptic mirror deck with savor the moment before Vault got unreunfixed?    That deck was pretty fun, and it played savor the moment. 

Yeah, it was a really cool deck. It won with serra sphinx beats after infinite turns were set up. It was called "mirror, mirror" and there's a link to the decklist in the vintage encyclopedia thread. Way cooler of a win-con than stupid vault/key.

[TopSecret]

Your next turn you tap an island and cast Call to Mind to return Mana Drain to your Hand. 4 mana to recall the Anc, 6 for Tinker, 3 for Force of Will....

Could this be the "engine" to replace Dark Confidant?

The problem is that all of the plays you list are quite bad, and those are best case scenarios that assume you've already drawn Tinker and/or Ancestral and gotten them into the graveyard.

[Lemnear]

Your next turn you tap an island and cast Call to Mind to return Mana Drain to your Hand. 4 mana to recall the Anc, 6 for Tinker, 3 for Force of Will....

Could this be the "engine" to replace Dark Confidant?

The problem is that all of the plays you list are quite bad, and those are best case scenarios that assume you've already drawn Tinker and/or Ancestral and gotten them into the graveyard.

Nobody says that those are 1-2 turn plays and grab those cards with all the tutors really shouldn't be a topic. I consider this card to be playable 'cause it's more slot saving and cheaper in mana than Intuition/AK. I/AK is 5-6 slots fixed, 5 mana to draw 3 ... and I think drawing 3 via 4 mana by tossing 1 or 2 Calls into a deck is ok, especially if 4 mana brainstorms are too (I know this lacks a bit,  but this is a bit more raw power than control aka jace) Maybe I "overdid" it a bit using the word "engine" in the subjekt-line....

I remember some players wet themselves in joy over See Beyond. I think CtM is a better printing .... maybe not so much for control but for combo ... who knows

@ Oath of Happy: See you get my mana drain argument... 

[Delha]

Nobody says that those are 1-2 turn plays and grab those cards with all the tutors really shouldn't be a topic. I consider this card to be playable 'cause it's more slot saving and cheaper in mana than Intuition/AK. I/AK is 5-6 slots fixed, 5 mana to draw 3 ... and I think drawing 3 via 4 mana by tossing 1 or 2 Calls into a deck is ok, especially if 4 mana brainstorms are too

That isn't a very good comparison. With IntuAK, all you need to draw is Intuition. Tutor+Call demands that you have two cards in hand.

[Lemnear]

Sure I understand that you and others see this as a 2-card-play since this card needs gems in the grave and Intuition is only 1 card ... but I'm not sure if it's that simple. I would compare the bad taste of drawing it without anything relevant/powerful in the grave with drawing a lonely AK. And sometimes, 'cause Intuition is a 1-of, 2-of card, you have to tutor for Intuition itself....

[Killane]

Sure I understand that you and others see this as a 2-card-play since this card needs gems in the grave and Intuition is only 1 card ... but I'm not sure if it's that simple. I would compare the bad taste of drawing it without anything relevant/powerful in the grave with drawing a lonely AK. And sometimes, 'cause Intuition is a 1-of, 2-of card, you have to tutor for Intuition itself....

I still don;t see how we can get past the empirical evidence of the fact that virtually the EXACT SAME CARD, except priced at 1UU instead of 2U, has existed for years and seen 0 play. These kind of deck do not have issues generating U. i wanted this to be good when I saw the spoiler, I really did. Regardless, it seems clear it is not.

[Delha]

Sure I understand that you and others see this as a 2-card-play since this card needs gems in the grave and Intuition is only 1 card ... but I'm not sure if it's that simple. I would compare the bad taste of drawing it without anything relevant/powerful in the grave with drawing a lonely AK. And sometimes, 'cause Intuition is a 1-of, 2-of card, you have to tutor for Intuition itself....

If you can't grasp the concept that two-cards that you must have in hand are inherently weaker than a single card that does the same, then I may well be wasting my time talking to you. Look. Let's assume your hand has nothing relevant except for a tutor. If you tutor up Intuition, you can cast that, AK, and go from there. If you tutor up Call, you still can't do anything, because Call on it's own does nothing.

Regarding AK drawn without Intu, you have a couple options. First, you hold it until you resolve Intu, at which point it becomes  to draw four. If you can't afford to wait, cantripping means it isn't just a dead card sitting in your hand. With Call, if you have no relevant targets, it stays blank until you see one. There is no plan B.

[Lemnear]

Sure I understand that you and others see this as a 2-card-play since this card needs gems in the grave and Intuition is only 1 card ... but I'm not sure if it's that simple. I would compare the bad taste of drawing it without anything relevant/powerful in the grave with drawing a lonely AK. And sometimes, 'cause Intuition is a 1-of, 2-of card, you have to tutor for Intuition itself....

I still don;t see how we can get past the empirical evidence of the fact that virtually the EXACT SAME CARD, except priced at 1UU instead of 2U, has existed for years and seen 0 play. These kind of deck do not have issues generating U. i wanted this to be good when I saw the spoiler, I really did. Regardless, it seems clear it is not.

I'm sure that an important factor is that there were much better cards/techs unrestricted. Playing Burning Desire, Meandeck Gifts or Gush since it's printing I never miss it due to all the better options available. Who was aware of Loyal Retainer before Iona or of strategic planning? This whole topic started 'cause I want reflection of that idea, that's all. To me it's kinda silly to discuss the obvious good cards. Back then I did quite similar with the question if the upcoming printing of Inkwell Leviathan could replace DSC and most of that I heard was close to flaming. Delha is on the way...  

Sure I understand that you and others see this as a 2-card-play since this card needs gems in the grave and Intuition is only 1 card ... but I'm not sure if it's that simple. I would compare the bad taste of drawing it without anything relevant/powerful in the grave with drawing a lonely AK. And sometimes, 'cause Intuition is a 1-of, 2-of card, you have to tutor for Intuition itself....

If you can't grasp the concept that two-cards that you must have in hand are inherently weaker than a single card that does the same, then I may well be wasting my time talking to you. Look. Let's assume your hand has nothing relevant except for a tutor. If you tutor up Intuition, you can cast that, AK, and go from there. If you tutor up Call, you still can't do anything, because Call on it's own does nothing.

Regarding AK drawn without Intu, you have a couple options. First, you hold it until you resolve Intu, at which point it becomes   to draw four. If you can't afford to wait, cantripping means it isn't just a dead card sitting in your hand. With Call, if you have no relevant targets, it stays blank until you see one. There is no plan B.

Cool down ... you don't have to act like a teacher telling me the obvious things. I know that Call does nothing on it's own! God Damn! Thank you reminding me that I should not tutor up Call if my grave is empty ... I'm sure otherwise I would always dig for Call instead of Anc, Tinker, etc.  

Why should I say strictly "no!" to a card that could be a dead draw if in opening hand? Would your argument be the same if it's Regrowth? Are all the GAT-Players douchebags that played Regrowth? Yeah you could return a Land that Call can't but if you can't dump a single spell worth recurring in your grave till, say round 3, you're may playing Standard    It's not new that regrowth-effect are "a bit" unimpressing without targets in graveyard. Would you consider H. Recall to be a bad card 'cause "if you have no relevant targets, it stays blank"?

Call's a pure situational card but that doesn't auto-inclue it's bad

[Delha]

Cool down ... you don't have to act like a teacher telling me the obvious things. I know that Call does nothing on it's own!

I'm not upset. Honestly, if you go back and read, it sounds like you're a lot more worked up about this than I am. If I sounded like a teacher, that's because you didn't seem to be understanding what I consider to be very obvious.

You said that you could see why people consider Call to be a two card combo, and indicated that you disagree. I therefore explained in detail why it is dependent on other cards in ways that Intuition is not.

You compared drawing Call alone to drawing AK alone. I therefore simply pointed out that a lone AK is much less of a dead card than a lone Call.

Why should I say strictly "no!" to a card that could be a dead draw if in opening hand? Would your argument be the same if it's Regrowth? Are all the GAT-Players douchebags that played Regrowth? Yeah you could return a Land that Call can't but if you can't dump a single spell worth recurring in your grave till, say round 3, you're may playing Standard     It's not new that regrowth-effect are "a bit" unimpressing without targets in graveyard. Would you consider H. Recall to be a bad card 'cause "if you have no relevant targets, it stays blank"?

Call's a pure situational card but that doesn't auto-inclue it's bad

I'm not saying it needs to be dismissed out of hand. What I am trying to do here is consider it in a grounded manner. Like all cards, it needs to prove itself against the alternatives available. You seem to be falling victim to the New Card Hype.

[median]

I know the instant thing is big too, but this has been around for a while.

[Marske]

Ok. before this gets out of hand, I think we're done concluding this card will not see any real competitive play as Relearn has been around forever and see's no play as well. 2U vs 1UU isn't a real deal, you're sporting it in a Drain deck regardless. Storm doesn't want this at sorcery speed (unless the spell costs 2B and is called Yawg. Fucking Win) and beyond that no other deck would want this effect that couldn't support Regrowth.

If you guys really really truly believe this card is viable (not the same as playable mind you) feel free to appeal this.

Locked.

Marske