Article: Rule of Law: Maximizing Mishra's Workshop in Vintage

[TheShop]

Now drop a sphere. I am not against rod completely, but turn 1 rod, turn 2 sphere means that welder is unlikely to see play. 

So the real issue is whether that welder is more important than the opponents current ability to play spells.

[LotusHead]

My current build has 2 Sylvan Library, 3 Ancient Stirrings (am I the only one for this card?)

Anyways, my MWS testing has been terrible (not getting real opponents, and when I do get real opponents, I played badly).

But my theory is this:  Sylvan Library gives you some card selection, and for -4 life, one extra card.  Life totals are often irrelevent with Time Vault being the win condition of choice (I still run 3 Null Rod MD), and Ancient Stirrings has been good without Sylvan Library, but gives SL an extra shuffle effect.  That one extra landdrop/lock piece might be what Stax needs to bring the lockdown.  Testing WED night at local shop and FNM soon.  Thoughts?

This is my current build (SB always under construction)



// Lands
    1  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  City of Brass
    3  Gemstone Mine
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Wasteland

// Creatures
    1  Duplicant
    3  Goblin Welder
    4  Lodestone Golem
    1  Sundering Titan

// Spells
    3  Ancient Stirrings
    3  Chalice of the Void
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    3  Null Rod
    2  Smokestack
    3  Sphere of Resistance
    4  Tangle Wire
    1  Tinker
    1  Trinisphere
    2  Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Duplicant
SB: 1  Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1  Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2  Aven Mindcensor
SB: 1  Balance
SB: 2  Braids, Cabal Minion
SB: 2  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3  Ray of Revelation
SB: 1  Platinum Angel

[madmanmike25]

Well I don't play much multi-colored Stax, but my thoughts are that 2 Ancient Stirrings are not better (or even as good as) Vampiric Tutor and Ancestral Recall.  Then I take a look at the 3rd Stirring and wonder if Crop Rotation wouldn't even be better there.

For me Sylvan Library is VERY comparable to Dark Confidant in this list.  Aside from 1 Titan and 1 Dupe, your mana curve isn't so high.  I know Library can dig 1 deeper(8 life) but Confidant can attack and block.  That's something you will have to consider in testing.  If you are in an Oath heavy meta then of course Library > Confidant.

Do you think Possessed Portal is worth a slot?

My problem with multi-colored lists is that they aren't consistent (very few 4-of's) and they just aren't really broken, but that doesn't mean you wont be able to smash some face every once in a while.

p.s. If you want some quality testing on MWS just shoot me a pm.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

@ Lotus Head:
Do you win most of your games by beating down with Lodestone/Titan, or by hard locking (or opponent scoops to lock)?  In my experience Smokestack is what usually seals the deal, so I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable running only 2.  If you win a lot of games by going aggro, however, the 3rd stack may not be necessary.

Why Braids in the sideboard?  2BB seems too hard to cast, especially when combined with Rod and Sphere.  Wouldn't the other 2 Smokestacks just be better?

How has Mindcensor been in testing, and what do you side it against?

[LotusHead]

The mindsenser and Braids in the SB are an experiment in siding in non-artifact threats to nerf their anti-artifact hate.
Mindsenser would be sided in against anything that does a lot of searching their libraries (fetch, tutor, etc so Fish and Time Vault decks).

As to how I win games?  Few opponents will scoop before they absolutely have to, so 5/3 has to get in there.

@MadmanMike
Believe it or not, things like Ancestral Recall are hard for me to put into a shop deck due to proxy reasons (I support like 3 players and have to make those proxy slots stretch), and I don't own Ancestral Recall.  Having Ancestral Recall in a blue deck is much more important that 5c Shops having Ancestral Recal.  (And I own only 1 Vamp Tutor).  That being said, I'm so used to not having the option of fitting in Ancestral, that I forget it is an option.  Maybe I crack down on a teammate and make him play 4th basic Island instead of off color moxen.

Lame reasons, I know, but those are my reasons.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The mindsenser and Braids in the SB are an experiment in siding in non-artifact threats to nerf their anti-artifact hate.

If that's the case, why not side Choke or In the Eye of Chaos?  Both of these enchantments seem more devastating against Control decks, and Choke would be good against Fish, as well (which often packs creature removal, and will certainly side some to deal with your Golems).  Mindcensor seems rather weak to me, because against Stax I usually side Darkblast to take out Welders.

[LotusHead]

You definately have a point, but Mindsensers are also win conditions, and it won me the game against the one deck that my sb cards showed up against (noble fish)  (all other games last tourney won by regular staxy stuff)

Also, I don't have any Chokes (lol!) But I got some store credit so I can pick up that inexpensive SB stuff.  Choke and Null Rod sound like winners to me.

[Bill Copes]

With every blue deck running Nature's Claim in the board, I wouldn't bother with Choke at the moment.  Mindcensor is good enough.

[Smmenen]

Steve's argument that the Null Rod hurts me more than my opponents is seriously flawed.  

Matt,

That's something of a straw man to my fully developed argument, which is:

even if there are aspects in which Null Rod is assymmetric in your favor, the asymmetries in your opponents favor either outweighs the advantages or *so neutralizes* them that Null Rod becomes less useful than a substitute that performs a similar function, such as Shaman.

The bolded clause being the most relevant text.

There are of course many scenarios where Null Rod is better for you than your opponent.  But I believe there are good reasons for why 5c Stax has almost always eschewed using Null Rod.    If Null Rod was optimal in 5c Stax, Stax decks would have been running it.   The 5c Stax mana base is so bad and Moxen are so valuable that even if Null Rod were more directly and indirectly harmful to the opponent than you (and it probably is), you're still better off running substitutes or cards that perform similar functions.    In short, I can concede that Null Rod may hurt your opponent more than you, but that doesn't mean 1) it doesn't hurt you, or 2) that it's optimal.   My arguments are directed to those two points, and particularly the latter. 

[matt_sperling]

With Null Rod, there are two realistic possibilities: it's asymmetrical in your favor or its asymmetrical in your opponents favor.   It's not likely to be perfectly symmetrical.  

In short, I can concede that Null Rod may hurt your opponent more than you, but that doesn't mean 1) it doesn't hurt you, or 2) that it's optimal. My arguments are directed to those two points, and particularly the latter.

I obviously never claimed Rod "doesn't hurt you" I claimed specifically "Steve's argument that the Null Rod hurts me more than my opponents is seriously flawed."  Hopefully you can see the disconnect between the two quotes above, but who cares about the specific posture of this argument, onto the real topic...

We disagree about whether playing Null Rod in 5c Stax is an optimal strategy.  I was wrong about Tangle Wire, one example of how there is often wisdom to be gained from "they've always done it this way," but history is FAR from a perfect guide towards building the optimal list.  I couldn't get my list to beat Tezz and Oath consistently enoughwithout Null Rod (i.e. any deck with Vault/Key was a favorite against me without my Rods) , and that alone is justification for playing the card in the current metagame.  Historical metagames may have been different, future metagames as well, and 5c Stax might have a brighter future ahead of it than it ever had if we can tune it better, only time will tell.

[TheShop]

One historical trend that has emerged (other than no rods showing up in 5 color) has been that lists with fewer colors (more stable mana bases) have run rod with fantastic success.  I think the general consensus over time has been that Rod is fantastic, but easier to support with a different shell.  All of the people who might have tried Rod in 5 color have been playing rod in B/R or R instead.  Big difference in discussion from how to fit rod into 5 color and which shell best supports rod.

[Prospero]

If cutting off colored mana so devastates 5c Stax but running Null Rod is so powerful in the metagame, doesn't this mean that running MUD/Workshop aggro would be the best way to go for Workshop.dec?

bingo,

of the four major workshop options: mono-brown, mono red, 2c, or 5c, I think 5c is clearly the worst option.   (Sorry NYSE). 

Steve,

I haven’t run 5C since Lodestone was printed.  It changes everything for Workshops.  Either you run a variant with him, or you run a variant that is capable of beating him.  Given that variants that have to beat Lodestone also have to be capable of beating Oath and Dredge, I don’t think that this is the right call right now.  If the metagame drastically shifts, potentially it is.  Still, I’m running Lodestones when I’m not running events. .  

In regards to Null Rod having a place in 5C Stax; I think you’re right.  I don’t believe that 5C is an optimal shell for Null Rods.  Personally, I have a known affinity for Powder Kegs.  The Shop player’s mission is still to control the board of the opponent.  Null Rod doesn’t do this well enough for me to consider it in 5C.  Kegs compensate for being on the draw to a certain degree.  

I don’t think that 5C is the right call for the Mid-Atlantic metagame, though if things in California are markedly different it is possible that it is the proper metagame call out there.  I don’t pay attention to the California metagame though, so I can’t speak with any authority in the matter.

Matt,

If I’m able to make it out to Vintage Worlds, I’ll take you up on your gauntlet.  I’m a grad student and I have bills, so I’m not willing to go so far as a set of power to the winner, but I’m willing to do something.  I don’t think I’m going to GP DC, as Standard seems like a miserable format and I haven’t played since Affinity was legal.  If I do go I’m up for doing this there.  

I’ll talk to my teammates and see if anyone else is up for this.  

And if it works out that it’s not possible to do R&D vs. your team, I’d still probably be down for teaming with Elias, or some of the other guys that I know.  

[Smmenen]

If cutting off colored mana so devastates 5c Stax but running Null Rod is so powerful in the metagame, doesn't this mean that running MUD/Workshop aggro would be the best way to go for Workshop.dec?

bingo,

of the four major workshop options: mono-brown, mono red, 2c, or 5c, I think 5c is clearly the worst option.   (Sorry NYSE). 

Steve,

I haven’t run 5C since Lodestone was printed.  It changes everything for Workshops.  Either you run a variant with him, or you run a variant that is capable of beating him.  

Which was pretty much the point I made earlier in the thread.

There are four options with Workshops:

1) Mono Brown
2) Mono Colored
3) 2c
4) 5c

Option 4 is the worst right now, and the strength of Null Rod in the metagame and the synergy of Null Rod with Lodestone Golem is no small part of the reason why that is so. 

[Prospero]

If cutting off colored mana so devastates 5c Stax but running Null Rod is so powerful in the metagame, doesn't this mean that running MUD/Workshop aggro would be the best way to go for Workshop.dec?

bingo,

of the four major workshop options: mono-brown, mono red, 2c, or 5c, I think 5c is clearly the worst option.   (Sorry NYSE).  

Steve,

I haven’t run 5C since Lodestone was printed.  It changes everything for Workshops.  Either you run a variant with him, or you run a variant that is capable of beating him.  

Which was pretty much the point I made earlier in the thread.

There are four options with Workshops:

1) Mono Brown
2) Mono Colored
3) 2c
4) 5c

Option 4 is the worst right now, and the strength of Null Rod in the metagame and the synergy of Null Rod with Lodestone Golem is no small part of the reason why that is so.  

I only posted in the thread because I saw that you were arguing against Null Rod in 5C Stax; I think it's almost always the right call to leave your Null Rods at home (when running 5C) and I'd like to push anyone considering running Shops away from making that move.  Chances are that it is a mistake.  

Pla's builds of U/R are very interesting, and worth considering if you're in a heavy Fish metagame.

Mono Red is tricky.  The only card that I really want in the main that is red is Welder.  There is a ton of junk that people run, and it doesn't seem like it's worth it.  

Mono Brown is downright devastating on the play, but has issues being on the draw.  

5C has to compete against opposing Lodestone Golems, Dredge decks, Noble Fish and Drain Tendrils/TPS out here.  It's asking too much of the deck.  I wouldn't pick it up right now if I had to play in a tournament in NY/NJ/PA.

[Troy_Costisick]

Mono Red is tricky.  The only card that I really want in the main that is red is Welder.  There is a ton of junk that people run, and it doesn't seem like it's worth it. 

Magus of the Moon is a decent red card to put in there. 

[Prospero]

Mono Red is tricky.  The only card that I really want in the main that is red is Welder.  There is a ton of junk that people run, and it doesn't seem like it's worth it.  

Magus of the Moon is a decent red card to put in there.  

I disagree.  2/2 beaters that activate Oath of Druids, don't stop my opponent from Dredging until they hit the board (turn 2 or turn 3 - at which point, what have I really done?), aren't Weld-able, and get run over by all my opponents Fish creatures aren't something that I would play.  TPS and most combo decks would laugh at it - if I'm a combo pilot, the first thing I find against a Stax deck are basic lands.  And I think it also pushes you to play equally bad cards, like Sword of Fire/Ice to try and make your creatures "better".  To top it off you have to nuke your own Ancient Tombs or Shops to run him.  There could be a really good deck out there that runs around him, but it's not a Shop deck. 

[tezzajw]

I think that running Null Rod in 5c Stax is risky.  I wouldn't do it.  I'd rather run Pithing Needle main, as it can hit the TV/Key combo, opposing Welders, Mox Monkeys, Bazzars (Dredge), etc.

What do I know.  I'm just a newbie.

It's good value being able to read all of your opinions.