Powerless Meta - events without proxies - How do the Europeans do it?

[TheShop]

That local testing issue keeps me from ever wanting to travel to play.  Plus, I am married and have limited vacation time...so that whole "for the love of the game" argument about travel is ridiculous to me.  Any idea how difficult it is to buy vintage staples/power/shops and still save that $1,000 and then sink your vacation time (or spend a very rushed weekend)?  Also, I take great issue with traveling and planning specifically for a game that I can't talk about in public, have no one to play with, and whose majority of players act like 12 year olds in my area.

That said.  I have been and continue to be willing to toss money at this wallet-sink and offer local casual people the chance to play vintage.  The competitive players in this area only draft and do standard and own nothing pre-mirrodin.  They do not want to pony up to really play Magic if cards dont have a new border.  Casual players irritate me because they have no ambition to become increasingly powerful as players...competitive players in lesser formats get on my nerves because they are willing to shell out hundreds for brand new cards that will be trash soon and are still very weak on the scope of the entire game- the essence of mediocrity.  Being scared of losing the early game is a huge cop out.

Off of my soap box and hopefully back on the right track:

How do you inspire people to pick this format up when literally no one else plays it?  I cant afford to pay people to play and you can't force them.  So what have other people had success doing to pull people in?  I can tell you right now that I can't meet Prospero's challenge of regular mox tournies because I can't tie up the money in it and the turnout has immediately dropped in the past when the mox tourney was over in this area.  Also, I dont have the time to find a deal that is under market value on a regular basis.  They arent getting hooked and forming a community, it is paying for other people to play with.  This kind of stuff makes me want to put everything up for sale one last time and commit the ultimate despondency as far as Magic is Concerned.

[Marske]

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It's the willingness to travel... How many of you US players would put 5 dudes in 1 car and ride 7 hours?!

I think the whole europe v united states debate that Marske keeps spearheading is completely ridiculous, but I couldn't help responding to this one.  7 hours is a *short* trip for a major American touranment.  Back when we had power 9s, which where both the largest american vintage events ever, and about 1/5th of the prize support that BoM has, 7 hours was about the shortest trip you could make.  From Rhode Island its 11 hours to Roanoke or Richmond, 15 to Indianapolis for Gen Con, 17 to Chicago, and 18 to Charlotte, all events that I drove to.  There are a lot of factors that determine whether or not someone goes to an event, and the drive is just one of them.

When's the last time you did such a thing? Talking about how you did that in 06-07 (three years ago) doesn't really mean anything, when was the last GenCon you attended? My entire point is things have changed, people "used" to do these kinda trips, but now it "seems" (and I do want to stress how I, as an outsider see things) people just don't do this anymore.

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See, I think this is backwards.  Ever since New England has become somewhat barren of local Vintage tournaments, I have actually lost interest in making big trips for the format.  I want to invest time and money in formats that I can play consistently, not ones that I can play once every few months (and then lose due to a lack of playtesting, which is a logistical impossibility for me).

That.  Many times over.  I personally can't fully enjoy a format that I can't wrap my head around, that I'm not able to test and understand.  I just don't enjoy playing the game when I'm not playing at my best, and without the right tournament infrastructure/group of players, that's just not possible.  I enjoy playing Starcraft, but I wouldn't travel 10 hours to go to a Starcraft tournament unless I had been seriously practicing.  I'd just have a better weekend relaxing at home, chatting on #thepsionicstorm

Agreed, but you can invest in growing a community... I'm strongly in the same camp as Prospero on this, as I've done the same thing in Holland since 07 when Vintage was truly dead. Look at where we are now in 2010 ? multiple 30+ events, a blooming scene. Look at what Nick Coss and Nick Detwiler have done in Philly and NYC!

That local testing issue keeps me from ever wanting to travel to play.  Plus, I am married and have limited vacation time...so that whole "for the love of the game" argument about travel is ridiculous to me.  Any idea how difficult it is to buy vintage staples/power/shops and still save that $1,000 and then sink your vacation time (or spend a very rushed weekend)?

I work 40-50 hours a week, play magic, play in a band, TO events, have a girlfriend, do freelance projects and volunteer work, we're all busy folk, what is your point ?! I know how difficult it is to get time, money available for your hobby, but I also believe people should make an effort to do so, I don't golf, play poker or do any of the other things beyond music, my focus is Magic as a hobby, so I invest my time and money into it as much as I'm able to. Sure this will differ from person to person but still, if you can find time of to go golfing with the boys or clubbing you can also make time for playing in a event.

Also, I take great issue with traveling and planning specifically for a game that I can't talk about in public, have no one to play with, and whose majority of players act like 12 year olds in my area.

A game you cannot talk about in public ?! If you're that embarrassed about playing I can easily see why you wouldn't want to "invest" time and money into it. Because eventually you'd have to tell people why you cannot do other things because you have a "event" to go to....

How do you inspire people to pick this format up when literally no one else plays it?

I can only tell you what I did, grab 1 friend who played, sit down at a local shop before / during FNM and started playing... people came to watch "omg what are you guys playing that's interesting!" now, without smithing the mighty noobs, we sat them down and explained how the format works, how it's nothing like they've ever seen or done before.

I cant afford to pay people to play and you can't force them.  So what have other people had success doing to pull people in?  I can tell you right now that I can't meet Prospero's challenge of regular mox tournies because I can't tie up the money in it and the turnout has immediately dropped in the past when the mox tourney was over in this area. Also, I dont have the time to find a deal that is under market value on a regular basis. 

Have you ever done this stuff ? Find a local dealer to get in on the action, have him put up the Mox  in light of having his table be an exclusive one at the venue, he'll sell a shitton and you have a Mox to give away. It's how we've been running the Dutch events since 07.

[Zieby]

I want to chime in on this.

I am the TO of The Dutch Vintage Tournament series (Marske is my right hand and helps me with all sorts of things).

I started to plan my first Tournament after I was looking for a Vintage event and could not find any in the near 4 months. This was in August 2007. My first event took place in December.

Why?

Because you need to find a location and a way to Guarantee the prices without taking too much of a Risk.
I'm not a dealer, nor do I have the money to take a hit of 200 Dollars. But I contacted a local dealer.

Since the first tournament 11 has followed. the average turnout is 50.
Yes we also had one with 24 players and still gave the Mox and Drain away.

If you play in a shop, the shop should pay you for selecting his shop to run the event, not the other way around.

All said by Marske and Nick regarding organizing is spot on and I fully agree with this.

About Proxy > Non-Proxy tournaments.
Our tournament has a 10 Proxy rule.
The Mayor tournaments in Italy, Spain and France are sanctioned and there for without Proxies.

I think that the main explanations that can be given about the fact that these big events are a success are:
* Power is available in Europe
* If 15 People from Holland would travel to one big event they could be fully powered, they would loan all the cards from the rest of the community (Vintage community in Holland is about 75 people and I think this is High)
* Information is given way in advance so people can book cheap flights and Hotels
* and although we do not have a European ”TMD”, each nation has his own for a to communicate.

Secondly,
In Breda my home town, we host a weekly event with 4 to 10 people.
This event made some people enthusiastic about Vintage and made them buy the most important stuff for their deck so they could save the money for power. 4 People already have their decks ready for the next event, as Marske said, you have to invest time to learn these people about Vintage.

Why can we do it in Europe,

I think we have more small groups that are willing to invest time and knowledge in new players.
I think we also have more people willing to Organize small Mox tournaments for the community.
And in my case a have the best support from my Dealer, Rudy Meijer from Magic United (Just google)

Greetz Arjan

[TheBrassMan]

I apologize for getting involved in this discussion.  I redact previous statements.

[TheShop]

No one disagrees that bringing expensive cards to the table as prizes opens up a whole new world of possibilities.  And, I have sat down at FNM, draft, and prerelease and attempted to do just what you are saying- the problem I encountered was that the excitement died when I left the room and despite all of my previously listed attempts-no one wanted to play unless it was casual with my cards.  Some of them actually said:

if I had to choose which $10 entry fee to pay, I would have to choose draft....


I can't afford to hang my ass on the line for people who will not pay $10 and refuse to learn.  We went to their events 6-7 times and played/taught basic vintage...in the end, the stereotypes were still quoted to me:  you will lose early.  Ignorance is the #1 problem here, followed by money. 

On shop shopping, there are 2 shops in the STATE and neither play vintage.  Extended gets a tourney very seldomly.  The shop owners are not willing to risk it and to be honest, who can blame them?  If you have 30 people showing up for standard (a large group in the area), why deviate?

On my personal expenditures for magic and the public issue:  Magic is simply not socially acceptible in our area...especially for adults.  I am not going to go on a crusade to defend it frankly because I don't like being looked down on in social circles and at work.  Once upon a time, I did defend playing and took my share of laughs, now I just let it go instead f getting into an arguement(magic is not the only subject for which this is true).  The money thing works like this-  my bills(no credit cards) add up to 90% of my check.  I still spend $200 on magic a month, but if I do more than this, I am cutting into real life money and I refuse to be irresponsible in that way.  $200 a month takes an eternity to get you to europe or even new York from here.  On wives:  I would guess that a typical wife would like you to spend your vacation doing something she would also enjoy.  Take all of this with a grain of salt, but my life situation has included monetary and time sacrifces for magic over the years- but it is getting old when you can't see results.