T4 : what's best ?

[Farandar]

Hello everyone

Here is a little generic subject where we could discuss our stacks, and some of its part.
My main goal is to find better cards than the one I already have. My only restriction is a price one : no real Wrath of god/damnation (which are quite weak, by the way), no Force of will or Misdirection.

I'd like to begin with the removal part of my stack. The idea is to upgrade, not add any cards (the stack is quite big by now, I wouldn't like to by anymore sleeves, since I don't remember on which site I get the first )

Here are the current removal of my stack :
Agonizing demise
Altar's light
Barter in blood
Brainspoil
Celestial purge
Chastise
Chill to the bone
Consuming vortex
Crack the earth
Crib Swap
Crosis's charm
Cruel revival
Desert twister
Dismantling blow
Essence vortex
Fissure
Fracturing Gust
Grixis Charm
Hit/run
Into the roil
Legacy Weapon
Nemesis trap
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Oblation
odds/ends
Order/chaos
Orim's thunder
Path to exile
Phtisis
Predator, flagship
Rain of rust
Relic crush
Rend flesh
Repeal
Resounding silence
Resounding wave
Root grapple
Sickening shoal
Slaughter
Terashi's grasp
Tornado
Treva's Charm
Tsabo's Decree
Turn the tables
Twisted justice
Unmake
Violent ultimatum
Violet pall
Wreak havoc
Wrecking Ball

I wonder how good are : Mortify / Putrefy / Crooked scales / Wing shards / Diabolic edict, and which card they should replace. if you have better ideas, I'll take them too.
(Let's notice I do have Woodfall primus, Terastodon and Angel of despair as removal on legs/wings )

Thanx in advance.

[Metamind]

Hi,
First, how large is your stack?
Mortify and Purefy are obviously better than removals that can only do one of the things they do, versatility is key. Here they are used for their non-creature destroy quite often (I think 20% or more), as it's not hard to find broken enchantments or artifacts.
Chill to the Bone can become Putrefy
Rend Flesh can become Mortify (the non-spirit part has actually been relevant here)
Turn the Tables can easily become Wing Shards, hitting shroud creatures + storm makes it a much better card
Essence Vortex seems bad, I don't want to give my opponent choices. Diabolic Edict can go in instead - the ability to hit shroud and protection creatures was far more relevant than the possibility not to hit what you want.
Return to Dust is strictly better than Altar's Light
Desert Twister was cut here for being too weak - sorceries should need to be better to get played. Necrotic Sliver is better, especially with reanimation, but I wouldn't play either. Crooked Scales can get in this place.
Is the splice ability on Consuming Vortex relevant? If not there are many better bounce spells, from Repeal and Into the Roil to Snapback to Repel.
Terashi's Grasp was again really bad here because of the sorcery speed. Literally no one wanted to waste his turn on this. Molder does the same on instant speed.
Grixis Charm is no match for Bant Charm
Order/Chaos can go out for Swords to Plowshares, Second Thoughts or Exile
The nonblack clause in violet pall really hurts, Annihilate is much better as it doesn't allow regeneration and chances are all the cards in your stack are better than a 1/1 flier.
Again Wreak Havoc suffers from sorcery speed. You already have Wrecking Ball and Fissure that do the same at instant speed so it seems unneeded to me.
I think I probably prefer Terminate to Oblation, I find it irritating that they could have just drawn what I tried to kill

More removals that I play and you don't:
Where are your split seconds? They are format-defining IMO.
Grab the Reins is really good, killed many players.
I'd probably replace one of your disenchant effects with Ray of Distortion. I find that all the disenchants that replace themselves or do something else splashy are usually used at the first available target, or at least not the correct target. Ray of Distortion doesn't suffer from this problem, and provides two disenchant effects to keep the game balanced for a long time.
Treacherous Urge is really cute, there are some creatures you will very like to get with it at instant speed.
Cinder Cloud - not much to say, but really good
Spinal Embrace
Spin Into Myth - few creatures have protection from blue + it kills indestructibles/regenrators + it doesn't trigger Kokusho + it doesn't allow recursion or graveyard abilities + it has a small benefit on top
Betrayal of Flesh - multifunctional; I'd try to remove a reanimation card for this, as most of the time it is used for that mode
Captain's Maneuver - If you want another Shining Shoal
Spite/Malice is versatile, I'm not sure if he is the best out there but he's very solid.

Some removals I'm trying to get and probably you should too-
Crosis's Charm
AWOL - if you play with un-cards

[Farandar]

Hello and thanx for your time.

First, I would like my tack to stay around 300. That's the number of sleeves I'v got, as explained earlier

I do have some of the cards you mention, but they're listed in my counterspells section (Bant charm, Spite/malice) or my Control magic section (Take possession, Word of seizing, Spinal embrace, Treacherous Urge) or my damage prevention section (Captain's maneuver and its ancestor Damage reflection...).

Agreed on Wipe away and Krosan grip, I should make place for them.

Here is what it would look like :

Agonizing demise   
Altar's light   > Return to dust
Barter in blood   
Brainspoil   
Celestial purge   
Chastise   > Wing shards
Chill to the bone   > Cinder cloud
Consuming vortex   (I do play The Unspeakable, which is by now one of the weakiest creatures, but, you know
Crack the earth   
Crib Swap   
Crosis's charm   
Cruel revival   
Desert twister >   Wipe away
Dismantling blow   
Essence vortex >   Diabolic edict
Fissure   
Fracturing Gust   
Grixis Charm >   Spin into myth (this charm isn't the best, agreed)
Hit/run   
Into the roil   
Legacy Weapon   
Nemesis trap   
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker   
Oblation   (I'll keep this one for now since it can be used to save one of your things AND draw : should be listed in counterspell rather than in removal, so...)
odds/ends   
Order/chaos   (I like the "can't block" things : the modal sounds here better than the draw from Second thoughts or the "make opponent gain life" from Swords)
Orim's thunder   
Path to exile   
Phtisis   > Ray of Distortion
Predator, flagship   
Rain of rust   
Relic crush   
Rend flesh   > Putrefy
Repeal   
Resounding silence   
Resounding wave   
Root grapple   
Sickening shoal   
Slaughter   
Terashi's grasp   > Molder
Tornado   > Krosan grip (tornado stays but I've never liked its "pay life" cost)
Treva's Charm   
Tsabo's Decree   
Turn the tables   
Twisted justice   
Unmake   
Violent ultimatum   
Violet pall   > Terminate
Wreak havoc   > Mortify
Wrecking Ball   


Haven't find room for
Swords
Second thought (exile seems pretty weak by know)
Annihilate
Awol
Crooked scales

Won't try to fit in
Betrayal of Flesh : since we consider having no basic land, we can't entwine this : I don't wan't to have frustrating rule boxes.

[Metamind]

It's understandable that you cannot fit them all. I play a 400 card stack so I actually play almost everything that you have listed. I really want to make Terminate or Unmake the default powerlevel of my removals but I cannot yet do that.

What about Sudden Death? You don't think it has enough targets?

We don't play with any basic lands rule also, and we cannot entwine it. Still, the card is really good and I'm pretty sure I'd play it over Terminate (or anything that only kills a creature). The possibility of returning a creature at instant speed was a lot more powerful and a lot more relevant than the cannot be regenerated clause, hitting shroud creatures or exiling. It can win games.

I really need to get another Terminate and another Path to Exile - all my copies are currently used in decks.

[Farandar]

I'll give Betravayl of flesh a try.

Sudden death is a bit too weak : most of my creatures are bigger than 4/4. It can help a block, but it's more a trick than a removal : not that interesting, I guess.

[Bunbury]

Depends on your style of remove you want. Is something like Masticore (Or it's winged friend, Scourge of the Kher Ridges) a bit too much? They served me quite well in my stack

[Farandar]

Depends on your style of remove you want. Is something like Masticore (Or it's winged friend, Scourge of the Kher Ridges) a bit too much? They served me quite well in my stack

Already have both (and Vampiric Dragon) in my stack (but listed under "creatures" )

[Rubik_3x3x3]

Sudden death is a bit too weak : most of my creatures are bigger than 4/4. It can help a block, but it's more a trick than a removal : not that interesting, I guess.

Do not underestimate Sudden Death:
Mistmeadow Witch
Azorius Guildmage
Teferi

I promise there's more, but I'm not going to grab my stack right now and search it for guys that roll over to Sudden Death. You can go search yours, but those 3 guys are usually heavily protected and potentially game-winning.

[spcleddy]

@ Rubik

Teferi is sick. Shuts the opps out, makes you public enemy #1. Haven't played with Witch or Guildmage yet, but they seem solid. MWitch just laughs at tokens.

[Rubik_3x3x3]

@ Rubik

Teferi is sick. Shuts the opps out, makes you public enemy #1. Haven't played with Witch or Guildmage yet, but they seem solid. MWitch just laughs at tokens.

I strongly suggest you go online and order Witch and Guildmage, they're super cheap and two of the only creatures that can win games without needing to attack. Also, if you don't even have those, I'm sure you could go for ordering quite a few of the cheaper goodies, as well as a lot of removal and counterspells. For like $20 you can get 100 relevant Type 4 cards.

[spcleddy]

Just spent a few hours re-evaluating my stack. Cut out about 30 cards that were too weak or I just didn't like anymore. Balance, Balancing Act, and Rare-B-Gone. Already have more than enough wraths, and don't enjoy them right now. The Un-card in particular, has been in and out and in and out again!

Got it at about 240 cards after the cuts. Now I gotta order cards off my wishlist to build it back up.